clvlndr

... mrnyc, he said in the Eastern Conference; the Mavs beat the Spurs in 7 (+ overtime, at that).

Look for a similar thing when RTA's rail and Silver lines go to proof-of-payment. And, I've said a million times before and I'll say it again, if your rail transit lines were built in lousy areas for ridership (next to decaying industries, busy freight railroads, etc.), then redevelop the areas around the stations or adjust the location of the rail transit lines. See the threads on this forum on Red Line TOD projects and the Opportunity Corridor (putting a rail line in its median). Those are considerably less expensive than building all-new rights of way for rail transit within the city or for suburban extensions. This is a lousy way to say it, but many areas along RTA's rail lines have been thoroughly abandoned of industry and housing that this can actually be a benefit to reshaping those areas as modern transit-oriented communities. In those areas, we have a "clean" slate to start over, although some of those areas clearly are not clean of pollutants. But why spend millions to rebuild built rail lines? when: a) there is TOD potential untapped by existing lines, which are finally being explored, b) there is even some TOD growth near the lines you wish to replace (ie the Juvenile Justice center going up near the new Quincy/E. 105 Red Line Station, c) Building rail lines in freeway medians may be cheap, but it stymies, not adds to TOD growth, d) converting the rapid lines to trolleys will slow them down, hurt ridership. You don't seem to want to answer those questions, KJP, about your Opportunity Corridor. Why?

Born - Cleveland (east side) raised -- Cleveland (Shaker Sq area) and Shaker Hts lived -- Cleveland, DC, Balto, Chicago (briefly), Philly... returned to Cleveland, Shaker Square (full circle -- love it, love it)... travel a lot (particularly back to Philly business/family)... love big cities (that's why I'm here on this board) CLEVELAND... REPRESENT!!

^^ MyTwoSense, I think you need to make a distinction btw Miami's 2 downtowns: the old rundown one south of the Miami river and that North of the River, around Brickell (w/ all the banks and stuff) where you were. Both are doornail dead after 6p, but at least the North downtown is beautiful and dead. ^^Vulpster, you make some salient points, but I wouldn't say all the condos are "fortress like" Miami's building. Indeed, I found those in N. Downtown, along the beach, to be breathtaking. (I wish Cleveland could grab a few). Btw, I do think the Metro(People) Mover is a pretty slick way to get around downtown and connect to the Metrorail. Also, Vulpster (and others), I agree that the politically/physically removed Miami (South) Beach is the beehive of the entire Southland area (which includes the entire urban land mass more or less south of Palm Beach to the foot of the State). However, none of you mentioned Coconut Grove which is about 3 miles south of downtown along the ocean. This area South Beach-like -- oddly, Miami's City Hall lies there and not downtown. CG is the happening retail/entertainment area and is surrounded by elegant high-rise condos... And there are other similar areas, like Sunset Village. Then, of course there's Coral Gables, where the U. of Miami is, which is kind of like the Shaker Heights of Miami (like Shaker, it was carefully plotted by a wealthy RE guy in the 1920s). Indeed, the city and burb area to the South (along Dixie Hwy and the elevated Metrorail) is where the action in Greater Miami (sans S. Beach) appears to lie. North of downtown (indeed, downtown itself) is poor and rundown and extends deep into northern burbs as well (ie, Opa Locka is merely East Cleveland w/ Spanish architecture, palms and a lot of dirt roads and sand). All that said, I agree w/ MTS and Vulpster -- take away the weather advantage (in my book, not the total advantage as many see it, as I do like the change of seasons -- though our long, bitter winters do wear on me), and Miami's really overrated compared to Cleveland on a national scale. Aside from the weather, it burns me that, in the general public mindset, Miami is positive as a place to visit and we are not, ... though things may be a-changin'...

^^^As I always say re lousy legislators: we've seen the enemy and it is us. Why do we keep sending these boobs back to city hall, Columbus and Washington? And if the voters don't have the facts or understanding the damage these pols are doing, why aren't we getting it to them?

I'm not throwing ridership out as a measuring stick; I'm not even saying it's not the main measuring stick, because it is. I'm just saying it should not always be used as the sole measuring stick. And Baltimore and Cleveland are extreme examples of why. Baltimore is ridden more than Cleveland, obviously. But there are a host of reasons why (like the natural row-house (high) overall density of Baltimore vs. the natural frame house, deep-lot driveway (moderate/low) of Cleveland. Plus, I there are issues in Baltimore that help its success like 1) newness of the system/rapid transit overall to the public; 2) the strength of the urban core of B'more, both as a commercial and retail center over Cleveland (also remember, as a Colonial city of the aforementioned row houses -- some dating over 300 years -- people have always lived in and around downtown B'more, whereas it's a very recent thing for Cleveland (discounting, of course, the period of Moses' landing up to 1900, when people started bolting downtown for the fringes and burbs of Cleveland); and then 4) there’s Baltimore’s ongoing refusal to build radial freeways whereas Cleveland is crisscrossed with them. Then, looking at Cleveland, we’ve suffered from extreme loss of industry in many areas of the city, coupled with the devastation downtown due to a loss of corporate/service jobs that is unprecedented in the U.S. per capita-wise. I’m not making excuses for the bonehead failures RTA and it’s predecessors have made – by commission and omission – but you must recognize that there are many, many factors that hurt RTA ridership besides the quality, or lack-thereof, of the system itself. ////////// The listed factors existed from before the time Baltimore’s 1st rapid transit went on line—in other words, it had many preexisting factors going for it, ridership-wise, from the beginning. Baltimore is very similar in age, density and urban architecture to Boston, and had ever chance to build a system approaching Boston’s, but blew it. It has light rail, commuter rail (2 lines, including the gift electrified NEC line), and a heavy rail Metro; and yet: - they barely interface with one another (save the lone single-track connection of the slow Light rail line) - You must walk outside, for a block, to transfer btw Heavy and light rail – and even then, there are no transfer privileges at all btw the 2 services; full fare is req’d - Building a surface, downtown portion of light rail was penny-wise/pound foolish raised to the tenth power – even moreso, when you consider that Heavy rail downtown was not only built fully in a subway TO downtown from the edge of town, it was extended in subway THROUGH downtown AFTER the Light Rail was built – how much sense does that make? As a result, light rail ridiculously slow, esp in a high-density downtown with lots of pedestrians, short blocks and untimed lights. Forget about airport use like Cleveland – that is, going from the suburban district opposite the BWI airport, thru downtown (it takes forever to inch along via rail on Howard St, which has been turned into a retail ghost-town by Light Rail), and, as noted above, if your coming in on the Metro, you have to schlep your luggage outdoors (poss in rain or snow), to that slow light rail – and you’d better have your 2nd fare handy. - The core 10 mile North corridor is completely missed save the very lowest portion along creaky Light Rail line for 1 mile - Unlike Cleveland, many, if not most, prime entertainment/tourist areas are missed by both lines, including wildly popular Fells Point, the Charles Village/university museum district and the classic Inner Harbor – yep, the Inner Harbor. Yes, light rail goes a “scant” 3 (sizable) blocks from the Harbor, but that’s not serving it, in my book. (indeed, while B’more has given up - Commuter rail from Penn Station hasn’t been extended into downtown; and the connection to Light Rail is pretty useless as the Light Rail skims the edge of downtown, anyway. One is much better off hoping one of the many express buses into the true core of the city down along busy St. Paul street, which runs adjacent to Penn Station - And while I’m on it, why hasn’t Baltimore upgraded MARC’s commuter trains to make Baltimore more of the destination/urban center it is rather than existing in it’s MARC status as a mere D.C. suburb? (if you don’t believe me, download a schedule, partuclarly a Camden Yards schedule where trains actually do terminate in downtown. Sure some of Baltimore’s lines are somewhat longer than Cleveland’s, but what difference if you’ve got the multitude of problems Baltimore has that I’ve listed (and my list is not exhaustive. The point being is, we Clevelanders always seem quick to downgrade RTA while holding other transit systems on pedestals based on ridership alone, when there are tons of external forces affecting RTA we don’t take into account. Ridership is an important measuring stick, but let’s not make it the sole measuring stick. I see examples on this Board of that type of thinking for things like, say, a rail line out W. 25/Pearl deep into Parma. Yeah, it would carry a lot of people (mainly crossovers from the buses it replaces), but if it’s little faster than a bus, what’s the point? Is that success to you? Baltimore has an OK system, but it could have been great with better planning. Balto transit exemplifies expediency at its worst. And when it comes down to overall quality, I’d take Cleveland’s Rapid (and bus) over Baltimore’s in a heartbeat. [note, apologies ahead of time for the grammar/typo’s, but hitting the sack at this ungodly hour esp since it’s a work-night; now morning]

Atlanta began rail with a vision for the entire city: become the convention capital of the South, and in the process, grow a high density city. The only line of MARTA that was directly related to the Olympics, to my knowledge, is the north line to North Springs, designed, largely, to ferry Olympic goers parking at or beyond the Perimeter beltway. (btw, MTS, I'm aware of negative forces in Atlanta -- like those in Cleveland -- are freezing MARTA's rail growth). There are lessons here for Cleveland. We have got to start demanding our leaders work for the goal of what is most healthy for the city. We know what it is and what's not. High density, mixed use, walking-oriented, transit-oriented ... we KNOW what it is... In Cleveland, we're a sprawl, no growth city. We shouldn't try to be a good version of an Atlanta or a Chicago... we've got to foment the best Cleveland -- of course, in the context of what is objectively positive for any big city, anywhere on the planet... Projects like Steelyards and that stupid big box Target in W. 117 & I-90 are clearly NOT the answer to any kind of positive growth. And we have to (like Washington, D.C. did long ago), issue a moratorium on urban freeways, period... we, in this town, are addicted to freeway building like a junkie's addicted to crack... Slowly, though, it appears most new big projects here are TOD. That's a start. And have to -- absolutely HAVE TO stress business returning downtown as our Central Business Center. The idea of the Science Parks (Beachwood, MBNA) and huge Progressive suburban campuses -- that follow our perimeter freeways and sap dollars from our downtown -- have to stop -- I bristle every time I hear those ubiquitous Progressive TV commercials tout the fact they are "of Mayfield, Ohio." Nice. And to hell with the mother city. Transit ridership will not grow, alone with TOD, alone, without a healthy downtown. RTA's/the Rapid's numbers declined, seriously, as downtown declined, both as a business and retail center... As you can see, downtown's growth as a residential and entertainment (see DaninDC's favorite concept: downtown as an adult theme park, LOL) center, while helping somewhat, cannot replace what a strong business center meant for RTA riders... but, obviously, creating more TOD's is helpful, too, obviously, and in no way am I dismissing them by any stretch of the imagination... Atlanta's Sunbelt a growth town, so they're not a great model. St. Louis and Baltimore are most like us. I'm not quite sure what to make of St. Louis' light rail although it seems successful. Baltimore is an utter failure. And, btw MyTwoSense, let me back away from only looking at ridership numbers as success. Baltimore has numbers on us, but it is anything but a success. Indeed, it's got to be the worst built of the large-scale modern systems; makes RTA look like a gem in comparison.

This appears to be a sound approach and one that is hard to argue with. I know your presentation mentioned seed money from a Sherrod Brown Fed program, but who will run this demonstration? RTA? If it is not RTA, are you saying that RTA will get zero financial windfall from this demonstration despite obviously incurring costs to facilitate it? As for capacity, it doesn't seem like car space should (I stress, should) be a problem as crossover/turnback facilities exist at W.117/Madison. Also, Red Line cars can be run by one man/woman, so it seems the only cost they'd incur for 3 or 4 car operations is in electric.

^^ and remember one more thing MyTwoSense, Atlanta proper, to this day, is smaller than Cleveland population-wise (although we're racing to fall behind them). And even though there metro area has mushroomed to pass ours, it wasn't as big when Atlanta began building this network -- and I wouldn't be surprised that, overall, there metro area's population density still doesn't match ours... so why can THEY dig a subway 5/6 miles out their Peachtree Road and we can't muster the same for a just a few miles out our Euclid Ave? As George Bush I might say, a large part of it is the "vision thing".

^MyTwoSense, what I mean by "success" is not geared toward funding. There are a number of major transit systems that have struggled with funding in recent years, including Philly's SEPTA, New York's MTA and Chicago's CTA -- all seemingly successful by most measuring sticks... What I mean by Atlanta's being successful -- esp compared to ours -- is ridership; that, you can't deny. With the exception of the dinky Bankhead stub, which was supposed to be extended deep into the NW towards Marietta, all lines operate with 4-car (heavy rail) trains and up at all operating hours. Even on the Bankhead stub, 2 cars are used (they may use more during rush hour -- I haven't been on MARTA during a weekday rush; I was just in Atlanta last summer on a weekend overnight stay). As a fellow Shaker Square-ite and frequent rider, I don't have to remind you of our RTA's laughable/embarrassing sight of one car Blue-Green trains at all hours (save a Browns game or special even here and there), and those "silver bullet" single car/pay-the-driver jobbies of our so-called "heavy rail/Metro" Red Line. I would also say Atlanta is successful -- far more than RTA -- with all the TOD development around stations: just take a gander at all the sleek high-rise apartment (and office) towers that have risen/are rising near MARTA stops at Midtown, North Ave, Arts Center and Buckhead -- just to name a few (and a quickie ride out the newest, few-years-old North (Sandy Springs) branch indicates some of the same. And how about the mega convention center/stadium complex (I surmise, in part fueled by the '96 Olympics) that have mushroomed directly at (and connect to) the stop just west of Five Points? -- and for all our teeth-gnashing about where to put, if at all, a new conv center, wouldn't we salivate to have Atlanta's, ... c'mon, be honest. Dude, that's success in my book. Atlanta may be talking about BRT now, but at least they FIRST did the heavy lifting we refused to do -- that is, build a subway right up the gut down it's main street corridor -- Peachtree St, so as whatever BRT they may be talking about is actually a supplement to a bustling rail network already in place and not pawned off to the public (like Calabrese et al., are doing) as some kind of economical alternative to the subway we SHOULD HAVE built. As to the other sorry scandal going on down in the Capital of Dixie, all I can say is: bad government is exclusively owned by no city or region.

^One downside you note in your power point is the potential to overwhelm the West Blvd Station and Rapid cars with Lorain/West suburban passengers transfering from commuter trains, which seems logical. Have you thought about ways around this (ie, a separate transfer platform slightly west of the current station) esp given that this Rapid Station is so new?

^^ I'm with you, Mister Good Day. I would rather Calabrese and his cronies to build transit through other means, most notably spending more seed money to sponsor TOD development around stations, and getting behind worthwhile rail expansion proposals, like KJP's Project Green commuter rail to Lorain and the (already Cleveland-backed) extension of the Waterfront Line along the Eastern lakefront). I've only seen on-board TV on Atlanta's MARTA; but MARTA, unlike RTA, is a highly-successful and continually expanding rapid rail network. Such a proposal for Cleveland is typical of the superficial, nonsense the Calabrese trots out to dazzle riders while keeping them focused away from failure of his administration.

Glad to hear the Vermilion officials are on board with a Sandusky extension, as I mentioned. Of course, there's a little matter of self interest involved, no doubt, since current plans call for a Lorain terminus. On thing's almost for certain, a Sandusky expansion could get the whole metro area behind this otherwise very worthwhile extension and could be a boon to RTA ridership, esp throughout the Rapid and esp on the Red Line.

I think the architectural term for those is: roundel

I was more talking about the Western Cuyahoga burbs as opposed to the city – I’ve always thought of Jay Westbrook as a standup guy, so I’m not surprised by his support. I’m assuming you’re going to talking about that Bay mayor who last seemed so intransigent. Good to hear she may be coming around; that the tide is turning in favor of the project. Hopefully the combination of people like Westbrook, the Lorain/Vermillion enthusiasm and the media will stoke the fires. As I’ve long said, when it comes to worthwhile projects like transit, it’s all about presenting the facts and allowing pols to ‘buy in’ to the idea, because the downside is miniscule compared to the upside. (as I see it, it’s how EcoCity Cleveland got Calabrese to buy into the Eco-Village/W. 65 Rapid rehab when his people wanted to close the station. And if you’re talking about potential high-density residential TOD development around the potential West Blvd. Rapid/commuter train transfer station, why shouldn’t , say, Frank Jackson not be 4-square behind this project … as should the aforementioned Calabrese.

How come there seems to be more support West of the Cuyahoga County border and more opposition East of it?

Nice. Toledo's Warehouse Dist certainly echoes Cleveland's (although I really like the balconies on that Toledo warehouse better than most of Cleveland's conversions).

Here is a link to the Milwaukee Connector a proposed close-in system where, at the moment, a mode has not been chosen, although there seems to be an underlying lean towards light rail/streetcar: http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/background.html Also, Milwaukee's wikipedia article notes Metra is considering extending its Kenosha line north to Milwaukee. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milwaukee#Transportation

This is good news. I would have preferred, and believe Columbus needs, the full light rail plan, but this is a good start. And yes, hopefully this plan can be the seed of an expanded light rail system a la Denver or Salt Lake City... ... one note of caution, though. I'm slightly leery of the north High Street plan as that line goes directly through the thriving Short North area as well as, farther north, OSU's U District. While this sounds counterintutive, consider that in a couple cities where light light rail have been introduced into crowded/lively urban streets, the retail, street and foot-traffic has been seriously harmed as street parking has become limited or eliminated-- people and businesses migrate elsewhere. People/businesses start avoiding these streets as the perception of them has become passenger depots and/or rail yards. This esp seems true when multiple-unit trains are run -- obviously this won't be an issue in Columbus' streetcar incarnation, but when/if it expands to light rail...? The worst example of this is Baltimore's Howard Street. I've read this has happened on Buffalo's Main Street, although I've admittedly not seen this first hand.

^Newark's not so totally broken down anymore w/ all those Manhattan yuppies (who can't deal w/ NYC rents) relocating to loft-style apts and new in-fill condos, townhouses and the like.

^^mrnyc, I share your sentiments viz BRT. BRT is simply the tool of anti-transit conservatives to thwart serious (rail) transit solutions. Example: (one of many), Baltimore had a viable plan for expanding its rapid rail lines (with mainly economically sensible) light rail until new Maryland Gov. Ehrlich came in and squelched all the proposals substituting BRT, instead... Few Balto officials take it seriously and Ehrlich has effectively dampened the spirit of those who wanted serious transit change for the City. ... is it any surprise that Joe Calabrese is the unabashed BRT advocate here on the shores of Lake Erie?

Yeowzer! Great info, KJP. This is amazing. That Bob Corna's not a talker, but a doer! This partnership is interesting. I have mixed emotions about casinos -- I tend to think they draw people indoors and away from development than vice versa -- but we'll see. Is a hotel a part of the mix (casinos usually like connected hotels)? I'm glad, though, the casino is not integral to the rest of the project. We'll see what voters think of casinos in the fall... But heck, so many elements are already in place -- like the amazing, and still developing Stonebridge 450-room/retail mega complex -- this project sounds like it's already ticketed for success. Let's hope such big-splash on the West Bank will help jump start the seemingly bogged down legal-battle/mess that's gripping Wolstein and the East Bank. And now, if Bob Stark can get his Warehouse Dist. plan going up the hill, downtown's near future is truly explosive, indeed. :yap: :wave:

Amen, BuckeyB!! Well said. :clap:

^ I'd prefer the Tower City/UC route, also. The dual hub aspect would be great, not to mention turning Tower City back into a passenger rail station. But in the end, it would probably be best to have all routes centralized in one station, and that would best probably be N. Coast as it is. The dream, though, would be to have the Tower City/UC route meet in Euclid with the extended RTA Waterfront Line along the lakeshore @ a transfer station in Euclid, that way the entire NE corridor of the City and burbs would be covered.

Yes, mrnyc, I remember. But as you know in this town, regardless of how logical a rail solution may seem, it's always easier to find a reason NOT to build -- and that almost always happens here which is why we're stuck in quicksand in greater Cleveland, transit-wise.