clvlndr

Re TNT: that Marv Albert backup really sucked. I mean, how many times was he wrongly going to keep spouting that Thursday was the 1st game LeBron's ever missed when, obviously, he missed 6 last year b/c of Mutombo's elbow and had to wear the mask much of the rest of the season? :shoot: :shoot: :shoot: Speaking of Bosh, I'd somehow love it if we could get him in the Wine & Gold, this being his option year -- I believe he may be a restricted FA after the season... Of course, if I really got crazy, I'd dream about a Drew for Kevin Garnett deal. Sure, we'd have to give them a Hughes and, maybe, a Sasha, but I'd make that deal in a NY minute... but it'll be only in my dreams.

^ I thought I made myself obviously clear, but I'll try again... Why is Wolstein attacking Shaia's plans' credibility? when: a) Shaia's property, unlike the other 12, is adjacent to where Wolstein's development is and where Wostein's only proposing surface parking there, b) when Wolstein glad-handed City Hall to get his proposal pushed thru, including plenty of bennies, and c) when Shaia obviously is planning something concrete and clearly is distinguishable from the other 12 do-nothings who ARE sitting in the middle of Wolstein's development area but are ONLY trying to hold him up for property the worth of which the fought for, and won (in reassessment) is only a fraction of what they're asking for now? Adjacent development could only help, not hurt Wolstein, esp viz the retail he's putting in... So unless Wolstein's got some concrete plans to develop that land (which, by the way, he's taking from Shaia through the mechanism of City Hall & the PA, and thus usurping Shaia's Constitutional right to develop and make money on his OWN LAND), which obviously he doesn't, why doesn't Wolstein stick to his plan & attend to his own business (like getting settlement with the troublesome 12) and shut the hell up?

There's nothing funny smelling. Wolstein isn't acquiring property, the port authority is (albeit with Wolstein's money), and they are doing so under the guidelines as defined in eight pieces of legislation recently passed by Cleveland City Council. At least one of those pieces of legislation designates the physical area to be developed, and Shaia's property is part of it. Shaia had been making noise about developing his property for three years, but noise does not equal a pending plan. Thus, Wolstein asked City Council to include Shaia's property in his development area, and he asked the port authority to acquire property and finance the development for him -- guided by the legislation passed by the city. I can understand why Wolstein doesn't yet believe Shaia's plan is nothing more than a trojan horse. He's dealing with 12 other property owners (aka blight brokers) who want nothing more than to get paid. But I think Wolstein will come to realize very soon that the Shaia Family isn't in this for a shakedown. If their not, then what's the Shaia's point? Was their "making noise" for 3 years for anything tangible, RE-wise, or did these highly-attractive plans suddenly materialize when (or after) Wolstein got City Hall (in accord w/ the PA) behind him? If their not for real, then what makes them really that different from the Dirty 12 other than the fact the Dirty 12 clearly, and obviously, have been merely sitting on their boarded up properties, while getting sweetheart lower assessments until (if ever) a Mr. Deep Pockets (aka Scott Wolstein) came along so they jerk him, and the tax board, around in order to get paid? And we know, as the PD clearly noted, that the Dirty 12's sudden 'plans' behind their representative, Mr. Credibility himself: Tom Coyne, are as tangible as a 3 and a half dollar bill. Obviously, I hope the Shaia's are for real. Their proposal sounds sounds stunning. Wolstein's plan is great and all for him, but the more the merrier, obviously, in terms of high-density housing. But I just can't believe Wolstein's people are as dumb as they seem. They must be on to something viz Shaia. I mean, why would they publically call out the Shaia's over some stupid surface parking when they (Wolstein's) could easily negotiate a 500 (or whatever) space parking garage and after Wolstein, himself, had to delicately steer legislation through the City Council gauntly to get street/sewer reconfig, brownfields clean up and every other concomitant infrastructure makeover along with handing over sufficient land upon which to work -- including grabbing Shaia's land -- which Wolstein crying about for friggin' parking!!?? 2 + 2 = 5 here. I'm in accord with sky: something's odious here... There's got to be something we're not hearing. Wolstein's people wouldn't (or shouldn't) be so gauche, esp. when Shaia's Front Street Lofts plan, even as dated by the first article posted in this thread, has been be-bopping around town for several months. While the 12 shakedown artists have offered nothing but, ... a shake down! Please, 'splain to me, someone...

In yesterday's PD. (btw, I agreed totally w/ PD's last week's editorial). I'm a little queasy about thumbing my nose at Shaia if he's for real with such development possibility. It would be nice if our new mayor could get Shaia, Wolstein and the PA together in a room somewhere and work this out. The potshots Wolstein and PA are taking at Shaia worry me. While I understand PA and Wolstein's need for parking, but if Shaia's serious about his plans, you can't toss the guy in the Lake. 2nd project in Flats may replace parking Friday, April 14, 2006 Christopher Montgomery Plain Dealer Reporter A proposed $75 million residential development in the Warehouse District has added another wrinkle to developer Scott Wolstein's plan to remake the east bank of Cleveland's Flats. The people behind the new project, which would include 228 for-sale housing units, argue they aren't trying to complicate things. They say their project will complement Wolstein's development rather than compete with it. But a spokeswoman for Wolstein flatly dismissed the project, calling the timing of the announcement "suspect" and saying Wolstein has the only viable option to make "anything of scale happen in the Flats -- period." More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com

Btw, this press release answers the question raised earlier: those are, indeed, faux 'cow catchers' on the front of the cute buses, er, um, 'scuse me,... trolleys. (just hope nobody reading the RTA press release didn't rush downtown looking for the real, electric thing.

Got me? But back to business. In case not noted, here's RTA's press release on the trolley's. Can you say: over the top? ... just a little? Ding, Ding, Ding Downtown trolleys are back…and free CLEVELAND - After a nearly 60-year absence, trolleys will roll once again on downtown streets, offering a way to experience Cleveland’s past and future at the same time. Beginning April 10, office workers and tourists will be able to hop on one of two trolley lines developed by RTA to replace Loop bus service. The E-Line trolley will link entertainment venues, from the Warehouse District <http://www.warehousedistrict.org/> at West Ninth Street, down Euclid Avenue past Playhouse Square <http://www.playhousesquare.com/> to East 21st Street. The B-Line trolley will connect business, circling Superior and Lakeside Avenues between West Sixth and East 12th Streets. Both lines will operate from 7 a.m. to 7 p.m. with 10-minute frequency. If the nostalgic green-and- gold vehicles, complete with cow catchers, wooden rails, and brass bells, don’t put a smile on the face of downtown travelers, the price of riding will. The trolleys are free now through Labor Day for -- a smile. The trolleys are free now through Labor Day for -- a smile. This was accomplished through a partnership between RTA and the Cleveland Convention & Visitors Bureau <http://www.travelcleveland.com/Leisure_Travelers/Things_To_Do>. RTA is studying the feasibility of maintaining the appealing “smile” fare indefinitely. Characters from the past will help reintroduce trolleys to Clevelanders. Radio commercials feature the voice of a 20’s vaudeville promoter, describing the trolleys as the “Cat’s Pajamas.” Trolley jingles accompany the spots, sung by a chorus line of bathing beauties. And on the Indians <http://indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/index.jsp?c_id=cle> home opener April 7, nearly 100 newsboys with capy hats and cotton news bags will descend on downtown, spreading the word in building lobbies, street corners, and at the Jake, “the trolleys are back.” The newsboys will descend on downtown, spreading the word in building lobbies, street corners, and at the Jake, “the trolleys are back.” Combining fun with functionality was the impetus for the downtown trolley lines. RTA worked with Cleveland Convention & Visitors Bureau <http://www.travelcleveland.com/Leisure_Travelers/Things_To_Do> and the Downtown Cleveland Alliance <http://www.downtownclevelandpartnership.com/> to develop the concept. Public meetings were also held to understand the changing transportation needs of office workers, college students, and a growing downtown group of residents. “We hope the trolleys will cause office workers to break away for lunch to meet friends on the other side of downtown,” said RTA General Manager Joe Calabrese. “By making the trip free and creating a 10-minute frequency, we removed any barriers for hopping on and exploring. The “smile” fare should come naturally, but it also says, ‘let’s enjoy our downtown again.’” Along with canvassing office workers and residents with flyers and advertisements, RTA is working with the hotel concierges to communicate the benefits of the new trolley lines to out-of-town guests. Operators with a gift for gab and knowledge of Cleveland’s history were also selected to drive the trolleys – serving as ambassadors for the city. They will dress in vintage uniforms, with motorman hats and vests. Dennis Roche, President of the Cleveland Convention & Visitors Bureau, <http://www.travelcleveland.com/Leisure_Travelers/Things_To_Do> sees the trolleys as a great way for people to experience all that downtown has to offer. “Great restaurants, unique music and comedy venues, and outdoor reading gardens – places that, along with well-known attractions like Playhouse Square <http://www.playhousesquare.com/> and the Avenue at Tower City <http://www.towercitycenter.com/>, are now just minutes away with the trolleys,” said Roche. About RTA RTA is the nation’s 13th-largest public-transit system, serving more than 45 percent of all public-transit riders in Ohio. Its 2,644 employees operate 108 rail cars on 34 miles of track and 654 buses on 89 routes. In 2005, more than 57 million passengers rode RTA’s trains, buses, Community Circulators and Paratransit vehicles. FOR MEDIA INQUIRIES ONLY: Jerry Masek <mailto:[email protected]>, RTA, 216.566.5211 John McCauley <mailto:[email protected]>, Brokaw, 216.685.4529

Actually, I was thinking the station could be slightly east or west of the curve, but not directly on it. Also, as I've visualized in NY and Chicago (true, shorter cars, here), depending on tightness of the radius, high platform (aka: heavy rail) cars can serve curving platforms.

Thanks for the graphic. Actually, I was thinking a shorter move, to the base of E. 30th which would make it a short straight walk under I-77 to CCC and an even shorter walk to the main P.O. I think this was actually in RTA's plans a 10-15 years ago but, again, it appears the idea was abandoned when Tower City’s reconfiguration began sucking the transferring passengers away from E.34th, making the station seemingly irrelevant.

Agree, totally. And you didn't mention that the BWI commuter service is electrified, too. This means the possibility to extend multiple unit service to the airport. The region needs to work on making the commuter service that exists better, like increasing frequency, weekend service and, maybe, even extending the tracks to closer than the current Amtrak/MARC station... It makes no sense to build a 30-odd mile rapid transit line. Too great of cost right of way building. Too uncomfortable of service: these low-back seat rapid transit cars can't deliver the level of comfort the heavier, high-back seat bi-level commuter MARC cars, which are designed to carry passengers great distances in comfort. Rapid transit lines, really, shouldn't extend much more than 15 miles from the city center. Beyond this they being (like Metro at points) begin mimicking commuter rail lines... I know the Metro is popular and highly successful, but come on.

Great. I stand (happily) corrected. Let's hope foot-traffic only keeps improving.

Just a thought. I know a decade or so ago, RTA pulled the plug on Loops connecting with the E.34th station -- which Rapid driver's still, deceptively, call out as "Campus Station." Low ridership no doubt motivated this, but it seems kind of strange, given the expansion in the Quadrangle in addition to the main post office a few blocks away... I know that a nearby small prison the county stuck in the area in the last decade doesn't do much for feelings of safety in the area, but I always thought bus connection (aside from the #15s and #19s) circulating between the Rapids and the Quadrangle, the 2 college campuses as well as Lower Euclid made sense. We know that Tower City's reconfiguration of it's Rapid station hub making for easy, indoor and, seemingly safer, transfer for Shaker riders to the airport and vice versa, cut down sharply the use of E.34, but to me, this still should not negate the station's use as a bus transfer point to the colleges and Quadrangle (I know of people who walk from the Rapid to Tri-C). Any thoughts to RTA expanding back to E.34, or does it make no sense, now?

Welcome aboard archer! Good to see another fellow cleve.com-er cross the urbanohio Rubicon ... Thanks for the info, too. I'm anxious to try out the new trolleys, although business hasn't allowed me into town the last few weeks and promises, unfortunately, to keep me away for at least a few more. But from all I'm hearing so far from urbanoho posters, everything is coming up roses for this new feature. Hopefully from the funky look of these trolleys and their frequency, it'll stimulate more interest in downtown than the old Loop buses which, no doubt, was the plan.

Mister Good Day, points well taken. You reminded me of one more thing on this thread: the Waterfront Line was designed to, hopefully someday, attract TOD on the Muny Lot anyway. That this open land, as well as other spots on the WL, has sat untouched by development for 10 years speaks to our preference, even our catering to, the driver and not the transit-user/pedestrian.

That's funny, when I worked over in, what was then the Ameritech building, I always watched empty 247 buses go by. In those heady days, RTA ran Waterfront Line trains every 12 mins (which is as it should be). There were small numbers on WL trains, to be sure, but substantially more on 247 buses. But then, you're speaking of a particular traveling demographic, drivers who park at Muny lot and take the bus. I find it interesting, even strange, that we're running a public transit system to accommodate daily commuting drivers to downtown. I don't mind ferrying Muny Light park-ers who come down for really big events in the Flats or Public Square or the like, but for commuters!? If they don't take the WL, at the very least why can't they either walk up to 9th Street and to their destinations or grab a #39, if they can't handle the walk (or park somewhere else). Hundreds of people park in pay lots in the Flats every work day and make the daily uphill hike (even in inclement weather) to downtown with no public trans whatsoever save the WL which, generally ignore. What makes Muny Lot drivers so special that we have to provide fuel burning buses to them every 10 minutes (while WL trains are every 25-30 mins during rush hour)?

MayDay, nice pics. Let me add to the chorus of cheers esp for your unusual, flattened-out 12x zoom shot of Euclid. Kinda makes you wish the street REALLY WAS that dense and compact. Btw, not to sound cynical, but were your street shots around Euclid/E. 9th during some kind of special event? It's sad to say, but given downtown's decline in recent years, as a business center, you almost have to think there's a special even going on if you see more than 2 or 3 people on the same block during the daytime (Fri and Sat nights, of course, no problemo, our streets buzz w/ activity then).

I'm just one of those crazy people that don't think the Muny Lot to Square leg of Route 47 (or 247) needs to be there. If the 47, as Mister Good Day suggests, doesn't serve the folks at City Hall, I'm wonder where they have to go? If they're talking about commuting trips coming from an outlying areas, I don't see why they can't use the Waterfront Line which stops 2 minutes from their door. If they're talking about moving about downtown, they can take the proposed #62, or one of the many #39s (from Lakeshore drive/Northeast) or walk a few block or blocks to the numerous line-haul lines along St. Clair, Superior or Public Sq. I just think the Muny Lot 47 is wasteful and duplicate of the Waterfront line. Taking any rapid to Tower City and making the indoors, level transfer to the WL (or simply staying on your train for a thru ride, if you're a Blue/Green rider) is much easier than disembarking trains, riding up an escalator to Public Sq, braving the elements while waiting for a 47 bus. I think RTA has long erred on this since the WL, and have only pitched the WL for tourist spots along the lakefront and not for the many workers at City Hall and the Erieview complex nearby. I know many of you say it's the "front door" aspect that riders want, but I tend to think this is a purely Cleveland thing which gives riders an excuse not to use rail. Other cities would have latched on to a facility like the WL and run buses to feed and supplement it, only, and not compete with (and destroy) it.

I'm just wondering how, with all these buses, in addition to ECP's proposed high frequency, there won't be clogging along ECP's route with the frequent #9s and #32s?

Good news, indeed... thanks.

I would eliminate several freeways in the Cleveland area: - unlike wimwar, I'd do the reverse, and demolish the I-490 bridge. I use it, occasionally, but it's hardly indispensable for me. Rarely do I travel across it that there are any more than a few cars, even during rush hour. What's more, it's existence is fueling the highway-lobby to, once again, try and build a freeway into the eastern suburbs. - I-90 west. A lot of sprawling growth has happened because of it. Much of Cleveland's west side neighborhoods, esp Detroit-Shoreway, have been ripped apart by I-90s wide concrete gully. It is largely redundant to I-71, I-480, anyway. The West Side is chewed up by 4 freeways, and freeway stubs, fanning through the area. And, in concert, they've done what American freeways have tended to do to cities: harm and destroy city hoods, hasten city exodus and sprawl, enhance and encourage greater racial separation, and damage mass transit.

Add the Twin Cities to Nashville as another Cleveland-sized town (Nashville being 1M smaller, metro-wise) implementing commuter rail while we sit here in Cleveland and make excuses why it CAN'T happen here. I get sick of it.

All right, so what next? We've got a semi-abandoned rail line/right of way through a corridor that has a region (East Lakewood) that is not only the most densely populated highly, but one of the few in this region that is growing (into Lorain County). We've got valid proposal how to use it. We have cheap commuter available (both engines and bi-level commuter cars). We even have a new, spacious, completed terminal in Lorain. This is tantamount a lob pitch right over the plate. If we, as a metro area, don't have we can't put good wood on the ball and get this thing done, then we might as well forget ANY meaningful transit project in the region (and, no, unlike others on this board, I do not consider BRT as meaningful). Do we have balls to get this done, or are we, once again, going to be defeated by naysayers like Vulpster03, or negative interest like RTA or Dennis Kucinich? It's our move. What next? Should KJP publish an article in the West Side Sun? We simply can't sit here and let this one go by the boards. It's fascinating, and disgusting, that in both the latest commuter rail opportunities, the impetus has come from beyond Cuyahoga Count (as in RTA) but in Akron and Lorain, respectively... That sure doesn't speak well about this so-called "big city" does it?

My bad, KJP, for my Qs were answered in your link (which, b/c of computer issues w/ certain pdf files at home, I can only read pg 1 of your presentation). As for the presentation itself: job well done. It's very well laid out and logical. With Vulpster03's comments duly noted, I can't see why anyone would logically be against this. It's cheap. It's fast. It can be put up and taken down easily; quickly. And it's far-reaching econ impact is great. Heck, if I had half a mind, I personally would buy a bunch of those Amtrak ex-P.O. locos, hold then sell them off at a cool profit. A couple more Qs: would it be feasible to extend seasonal service over this line non-stop from Vermilion to Cedar Point? And what about insurance issues? How did you arrive at your rather attracitve speed guestimates (esp including the lower speeds needed thru Lakewood due to the many grade Xings? -- note: I was only able to scan your link at work, so if you've answered these Qs in your link, forgive me.

We saw "Beauty Returns" and "Obaba" last weekend. Interesting films. The CIFF is great for downtown, restaurants (up to 2-hour wait lists), RTA, etc... We should all e-mail the Ratners, though. Apparently, in their quest for the new county office HQ, Ratner volunteered to buldoze the theatres for more parking spaces. Brilliant (and typically Cleveland), huh? Hopefully, the excellence of CIFF will help influence Ratner away from such regressive thinking.

How many cars, trainsets would be needed to start up this Lorain (or Vermillion)-to-Red Line commuter line? Should their be a stop at W. 117 as well as Downtown Lakewood near Warren? What's the probable start up timetable for this service?

Vulpster03, I disagree with your thinking. For one thing, I think the traffic along the corridor more than justify the relative small start up cost for this line vs. it's probable strong impact in moving large numbers of people through this dense corridor, esp Lakewood. Secondly, and most importantly, new rail mass transit serves as much as a tool to move existing commuters, a source for influencing commuter movement and future development -- such development most likely being high density TOD development around and near rail stations. If the Van Swearingens used your mode of thinking, why build the Shaker Rapid as there was little more than a few mansions and a lot of open farmland in the area at the time the Rapid was built? But as we know, of course, within 10 years of the Rapid's opening, Shaker Heights and Shaker Square exploded with luxury housing and high density apartment building, both at the Square and at various points along Van Aken Boulevard. I think this Lorain commuter rail line makes perfect sense and can even aid residents along the line speed to the airport with the Red Line Connection at West Blvd.