clvlndr

... As we can see major-to-huge residential and residential/retail projects are planned and/or about to rise in the already dense Euclid/Prospect corridor out to CSU -- there's Beacon/515, (huge/vertical) nuCLEus and now the planned 34-story Playhouse Sq. apt tower (itself is across the street from CSU's mixed use 535-bed Edge building which is close to opening). NOACA has held a "no subway" stance since the 1990s which helped kill the highly worthwhile Dual-Hub rail plan. At some point, NOACA's going to have to get up off of this stance because the sheer amount of foot and auto traffic in this area will make mere streetcars unfeasible. Cleveland is already blessed with a downtown subway rail tunnel as well as a grade-separated turnout at Huron Road to connect to it... Use it!

People are already living there.

I didn't see Scene's article as being totally negative on the project. Somewhat in places, but pretty balanced overall. The article didn't slam the project as being a precedent for CMSD being a future TIF ATM, but rather reported that a questioner from the audience asked whether such a precedent could be created. I'm as much for downtown development as anyone, but it's undeniable the schools are going to take a hit under this project. The article noted that, if the City or the City and the School board reject the proposal, it didn't say the project is dead but, rather, that Stark would have to seek the $18M elsewhere. I’m as pro downtown development as anyone, but I also have a social justice streak that hates seeing an already weak school district being financially drained even more. Cleveland, despite its renaissance in downtown and several neighborhoods, is still an economically depressed city in terms of its residence, and, of major cities, the percentage of residents hold a college degree is among the lowest in the country – only Detroit is worse. Robbing the schools of cash for the sake of a downtown project is asking a lot, especially when residents have paid for a new limited-use Browns football stadium as well as its renovation, renovated Progressive Field and are now being asked to fork over $140M for the Q. I love pro sports and especially Cleveland’s teams, but … All this for economically-stressed city of under 400K residents could be seen as a bit much. I’m not, per se, saying I’m against the proposed financing proposal, but we cannot simply dismiss those who question it.

Does NOACA still feel adverse to the Huron subway concept under Grace Gallucci? Might be worth exploring. At the moment, it seems like the main entertainment areas are closest to Tower City, like E. 4th street, which is really a block (at most 1.5 blocks) from Tower City. E. 9th is .4 miles, which is significant ... but walkable or a quick HL/Trolley jaunt... Although I'm becoming more and more skeptical that Nucleus is ever going to happen, I believe some development of that lot on Prospect will develop making a subway through that area along Huron into TC almost a necessity if, in fact, a rail line is going to pass through this area -- either the back side of the WFL loop or, perhaps, a replacement for the Health Line.

As of right now, NuCLEus is mythical. It would be like engaging in a discussion about the Loch Ness Monster or Big Foot and not discussing the human psyche that feeds the belief and disbelief. I'm definitely with you on this. Stark has proven himself to be little more than a big ideas guy and a big talker when it comes to these mega-projects... I'm somewhat hopeful he can pull off 515/Beacon which, though large and significant, it seems more to scale and doable than nuCLEus or that Pesht thing he was talking about a decade ago.

Query: is there some person or entity who could recruit a Gilbert type (if not Gilbert himself) to back such a project? The Loop, esp the Huron subway version, would directly impact Gilbert's casino in a positive way.

^I get you, I just kind of find this location off the beaten path. I still like the idea, explored with KJP, of a new Red Line Station near W. 41st Street (preferably btw W. 41st and 44th).. I think the location of the Cleveland Hostel, and the Hostel owner's plans for a new hotel up W. 25th nearer Detroit, to be more viable... But I won't snipe at any new hotel... the more rooms, the merrier.

^No question about. That would especially be true of Nucleus, which is a gigantic building (vertical-wise) on a relatively small footprint and an already relatively dense area -- esp on weekends and sports nights. Last Saturday night -- which was warm and beautiful, both the Euclid and Prospect corridors to E. 9th were jammed with peds and cars -- and the Indians were in Chicago! We didn't even make it to FEB, but I can only imagine...

Does this item on this week's design review committee agenda have anything to do with the above? ZONING MAP AMENDMENTS Ordinance No. 870-17(Ward 3/Councilmember McCormack; Ward 14/Councilmember Cummins): Changing the Use, Height and Area Districts south of I-90 and north of Clark Avenue between West 41st Street and Fulton Avenue. http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2017/08042017/index.php The parcel(s) that we were discussing were the ones hinted at earlier in this thread that are owned by the Cleveland Land Bank, North of 90, South of the Red-Line and east of 41st Street. Although the subtext did seem like there was more interest in the area, I don't know any specifics about them. I'm confused. Specifically what parcel of land are we talking about? According to Google's map, there are several parcels of land in/around W. 41st, W. 49th and Freas Ave in the general description. Also how is the Red Line Greenway at all driving such a project. It seems like an odd place for a new hotel, and if one is planned, doesn't it seem there should be more emphasis in RTA building a new in-fill Rapid Station along the Red Line rather than merely allowing hotel guests direct access to the Red Line Greenway... This doesn't make sense and needs to be clarified.

^Last night was a disaster. We finally get the bats going for 10 runs, and yet we couldn't hold a lead. And to add salt in the wound, Cody Allen threw a 3rd strike for what should have been the final out of the game, but the ball skipped past Gomes and Moreland was safe at 1st. The next man puts the ball in the seats for a walk-off...at hated Fenway, no less, where so many Indians' dreams have died hard over the years. So despite the beautiful, instant class Austin Jackson bullpen catch, it all amounted to the Tribe's 3rd loss in a row. Yikes. We're going to need Smith. Not just because Miller is hurting, but because our pen, Shaw in particular, have been very shaky at times this season.

^I recall seeing the same McNulty sign at the corner of Abbey and Columbus, catty-corner from the Red Line Rapid station... This would make particular sense because there has been significant activity at the other end of the block (with the very popular, classy Velvet Tango Room in the middle)... At the other end of the block, near Freeman Ave (across from the new Forest City Brewery bar/restaurant), a small crumbling 2-story (but deep) gray-brick/stone warehouse has been re purposed and reopened as 18 to 20 apartments with 4 row house-looking entrances. I understand the land has been cleared next to it (at the Freeman-Columbus corner) for yet another row of new townhouses... ... Duck Island is hummin'!

I was surprised Dynomite failed in that spot. We ate their once and the sandwiches were good. And unlike the beer joints that occupied the space before, Dynomite always seemed full or at least buzzing. And it had tons of outdoor seating at a prominent corner of Uptown. All those pluses are wasted now.. I hope Orange fitness works there, but parking is a hassle there and, for me, when I go to work out, the last thing I want to worry about is parking hassles (which is why I'll be sticking with LA Fitness in Beachwood).

^I don't either. The lot is income-producing, especially on weekends when there's high space turnover (and multiple fees) as FEB patrons are coming and going. I just wish Clevelanders weren't so prone to driving all the time even when transit is convenient.

Honestly, I don't think $1.00 more for parking will make people switch. Transit ridership seems to increase when fuel prices increase dramatically. Low fuel prices means more drivers. IMHO Or when driving and parking becomes more of a hassle, which is why I wish FEB Phase 3 could get started and close that big surface lot in the middle of the complex. Unfortunately it doesn't appear Phase 3 is happening anytime soon, so all those E&Y workers will continue park their cars and walk across WFL tracks next to the rapid station despite the often convenience of a Rapid line near them with the abundance of free RTA lot parking. Some E&Y workers opt for WFL trains, but not nearly enough.

Clvlndr, is this in the old Dynomite burger spot? I think a fitness center is going in the Dynomite spot.

Yep, because "planners" in the early days of the system refused to make any concessions whatsoever to the desires or preferences of those with other options. As a result, transit became a de facto "social program". I'm not sure how to fix that at this point, or even if it can be done. I'm not sure who you mean by planners from the early days -- the Van Sweringens? Donald Hyde? Bert Porter? Len Ronis? But I don't buy the "social program" angle, and if people see transit that way, they need to be publicly corrected... I do know that, after RTA was created in the 1970s, everybody was into transit. That didn't happen "after" RTA was created, some of it remained in the well served inner ring suburbs like Shaker Heights, Cleveland Heights, and Maple Heights (which remained autonomous until the late 80s). The planners I mean were at the beginning of the RTA era, the ones who felt everything should connect through downtown and eliminated many strictly suburban routes. Some also refused to consider expanding service to more affluent areas. Krumholz is the one most often mentioned in terms of SR extension, but there were others and of course the politicians they convinced have at least an equal share of the "credit". This was the big factor. Using RTA as part of the busing program was another. Many downtown commuters started driving because of the rowdy schoolkids. The numbers support this (this use also cushioned the decline....then), I saw it happen. And it should be close to obvious that people who do not commute using transit don't use it for other things either. I'm not the only one whose used the "social program" line on here, I may not even be the first. And yes, that's largely how it's seen. On the other hand, there's a Lake County park and ride lot near my plant for their downtown runs, I took a peek in there the other day and there were a few higher end cars mixed in. So apparently it's not as much of an issue for them. I wouldn't consider Norm Krumholz a transit planner... He was more a rail critic who helped doom the Green Line (1.5 mile) "Mode Mixer" extension to I-271. The cross-town "rapid-ing" of school kids was a stupid policy by the CMSD... btw, most were just being rambunctious immature kids-- I think the term "rowdy" was a stereotype. I think the rapid/busing policy may have hurt, then, Terminal Tower retail more so than rapid riding... I don't doubt, however, that the change in image of RTA may have been yet another form of 'white flight' which has adversely affected so many aspects of Cleveland life, from housing, county population and the popularity (and unpopularity) of various retail and entertainment districts ... to name a few. (and from a few comments I've been reading of late on the FEB thread, it may be an elephant lurking in the room down there -- again -- as well.... Let's hope not. We'll never be a healthy city as long as this remains an issue).

^Passed by and looked inside -- the window covering had been removed... The build-out for BIBIBOP looks inviting.

^^7 Line photos are more empirical evidence that rapid transit is more than just a tool to ease current auto congestion, it builds (and humanizes) cities.

I agree. I drove past Margaritaville last week and the place was full of folks having a good time. Kudos to the designers because, like Coastal Taco down the boardwalk, Margaritaville's design if very inviting and fun... Nothing wrong with that.

Very disconcerting. I'm wondering if that flash mob thing that happened a year ago (which happened at malls across the country) had a negative impact. On top of that, Legacy Village down the block seems growing in popularity the new(ish) Hyatt Place and (I thought I heard) the adding of apts there...

^At this point, what team would really want Felder even though I like the kid? He's undersized and still developing.

I'm definitely an advocate of expanding use of the WFL to 2a weekends -- having it stop at 7p and having people rely on Trolley's (free little buses) won't cut it)... But zealous ticketing and towing by the cops is a sure-fire way to turn people off and really hurt FEB. As McLovin correctly notes, a large chunk of Flats patronage is from the suburbs, and they simply won't put up that crap--they'll migrate to other lively City neighborhoods or stay in the burbs. New downtown City Councilman Kerry McCormack (who, at 28, is contemporary with a lot of Flats revelers) and Mayor Jackson need to get ahead of this lest they come off as tone deaf.

I'll really get excited about this project if I see some action, and not just talk, from Stark... I would, or will, feel a lot better once 515/Beacon gets a shovel in the ground.

Yep, because "planners" in the early days of the system refused to make any concessions whatsoever to the desires or preferences of those with other options. As a result, transit became a de facto "social program". I'm not sure how to fix that at this point, or even if it can be done. I'm not sure who you mean by planners from the early days -- the Van Sweringens? Donald Hyde? Bert Porter? Len Ronis? But I don't buy the "social program" angle, and if people see transit that way, they need to be publicly corrected... I do know that, after RTA was created in the 1970s, everybody was into transit. When my mom was confident enough to let me ride downtown alone on the Shaker Rapid to meet my dad "by the cigar shop" near the Rapid's ancient, subway-like escalator up from wooden platforms, people were streaming to/from rapid cars... Transit interest lasted as long as commuters existed, and when downtown seriously declined business/office-wise, ridership went with it, because downtown was pretty much dead after 7p... (Higbee's late closing nights, Wednesdays? did keep some shopper buzz after hours, but...). And as much as people bash the Waterfront Line today has this expensive, waste of time, in the 80s and 90s, planners, leaders and biz folks (including Jeff Jacobs) embraced the idea, the Bicentennial commission backed it, Mayor White backed it, Mayor-turned-governor Voinovich engineered direct state funding in order to bypass the red tape of the Feds, ... and the thing got built. And yes, it was well patronized on weekends when FEB bars, restaurants and clubs were packed -- and Flats' festivals were ubiquitous, and RTA back in the day often ran 2-car trains on weekends... And quality restaurants, like the old Watermark, even printed maps directing patrons from trains to the restaurant ... and back. But a new mentality has emerged among local leaders since thing. Somehow, now, with our new, rejuvenated and exciting Cleveland, esp downtown and in those neighborhoods, we've suddenly become too cool for transit. Many suburbanites and those in outer Cleveland hoods look at you funny if you mention taking the Rapid, even if they know it's going to be crazy crowded downtown -- they'd rather drive... I believe much of this has been encouraged by RTA's current administration where, now, many Clevelanders, logically so, don't trust the Rapid -- can't rely on it; don't know when their line is going to be open or closed; don't know, even when it's open, whether they have to walk up a Mt. Everest of stairs in Tower City during the Track 8 reconstruction but the elevator -- the 1 elevator! -- was broken down... ... and our pols have gone along with this mentality. Transit is almost completely ignored by the mayor and city councilmen ... accept when there's a grand opening, like the excellent, spanking new, relocated Little Italy Red Line stop, where Mayor Jackson, and his trusty, nationally famous aide and RTA envoy, Valarie McCall, bask in the spotlight to wield pairs of giant scissors at ribbon cuttings. So we're left with waiting for that Angel Pol/Administrator that gets it (like Chris Ronayne at UCI) or an Angel Developer, like MRN or Tony Panzica (at Uptown, Centric), or even NOACA's new boss Grace Gallucci (who has been impressive so far) to do the right thing. Without them, where would we be? Our advocates are either not focused enough, or maybe sometimes misguided (like attacking the Waterfront Line while advocating more buses)... It was great to see folks motivated enough to make noise about the Public Square debacle last year -- even though I still, personally, don't like buses going through the middle and hate those ugly concrete freeway barriers now, I enjoyed seeing the transit passion (and I do get the $Millions lost due to the rerouted buses -- I just believe plans should have been made for a compromise ahead of time that could have satisfied all parties)... ... My hopes are also leavened by the millennials who live downtown ... and in those neighborhoods, who freely ride the buses and trains and BRTs and Trolleys... They are demanding quality transit by there actions... But with out serious organization, advocacy and more NOISE ... the pols, the business types and others, will continue to shunt transit to the back burner of the public consciousness. Old Rapid cars will continue to decline and fail to the point where we're considering Rapid Line, or system, closures... I guess, maybe then the riding public will get motivated....

And remeber that a lot of folks ragged on the Triangle apts back in the early 90s just after they were built:they were bland, away from the street, encouraged surface parking, etc-- but yet, MRN seamlessly blended them into the Uptown court so that the Triangle is now an exciting, urban experience... That's how you do it. Those apartments behind the new MoCA? Those are part of an exciting urban experience? They look like a half step up from public housing. That's a matter of taste; and I've never been inside a Triangle unit... what I mean is that they look far more interesting attached to an attractive, high-density development like Uptown as opposed to sitting to the rear of surface parking and that small-scale, el-cheapo retail space that existed pre-Uptown. Interacting with the Triangle buildings at ground level within Uptown, gives the entire space a more urban, New York-like feel... and yes, to me, they're rather attractive; and with balconies, too, an all-too-rare feature for Cleveland mid-to-high rise apts.