ClevelandOhio

Any official date for the Little Italy station? Its already 2014!

The large majority of Public Transportation in Ohio uses roads. Isn't an investment in roads sort of like and investment in Public Transportation? There are far more busses than trains. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for increased transit funding. I just believe it should be 100% for rail, as RTA's already benefit from road improvements. Also I'm not sure I trust GCRTA with more money based on their poor decision track record.

^^^^When looking at the most popular urban neighborhoods throughout the world, the population seems to be between 20,000 to over 100,000 people per square mile. 15,000 at the minimum. Tremont and Ohio City are between 7,000 to 9,000 I believe. Density would be hard to change because nobody is going to tear down the houses. Ohio city more so than Tremont still has a lot of room to grow though so that is good! That's all I meant by being a lower density. It's not low like a Mentor(2000ish) but it is still much lower than core neighborhoods in the largest urban cities. Chicago for instance has neighborhoods over 20,000 and 30,000 people per square mile 10 miles away from downtown!

^ Im not sure if you said I believe that rail isn't a tool for economic development but that couldn't be further from the truth. I have continuously stated otherwise on this forum. I based my Waterfront line solely on ridership. It was closed for several years and still to this day has very low ridership. I am excited for the East Bank project and that will help, but the FEB isn't built there because of the rail. They even show plans for a parking garage on the lot closest to the station. I also mentioned the Ohio City and Little Italy stations in my post saying that those two have good potential for TOD, I never denied that. What I am saying is that TOD is not likely at most of our stations for many reasons. Its not the developers fault for not wanting to develop there and there are many concrete reasons why it hasn't happened yet and most likely wont for decades, if even then. I dont want to sit back and wait for something that doesnt make sense and probably wont happen. I want the city to aggressively plan for new routes or rerouting the current lines. The Red Line missing the Cleveland Clinic is a major blow, so is the fact that it also misses Cleveland State and Playhouse Square. If we don't point out the flaws, we will always wonder why our ridership is so low and why TOD hasn't happened, and we will never have discussion on what we need to do to improve. A new line along Detroit, serving Downtown Lakewood, Gordon Square, West 25th and Downtown, switch over to Euclid Avene to University Circle, then mayfield to Little Italy and Coventry, eventually connecting to cedar to Cedar Fairmount, and possibly even to Beachwood Place would instantly destroy the current routes when looking at ridership per mile. Building new lines that serve population centers and commercial centers would not only provide high quality transit options that would see high ridership, but also promote TOD in an area where it is way more likely to occur. It would make it easier to not own a car as rail would take a larger portion of the population to work(no park and ride required) and also provide opportunities to take rail to grocery stores, retail stores, and major shopping centers. I believe that it would be worth abandoning current lines if that was the only way to make it possible. A system that relies on Park and Rides is a system that would be better off served by bus or commuter rail which serves further out communities. The number of people who are going to drive 10 to 15 minutes to a rapid station to take it to a grocery store is low.

^^ Cleveland actually has a rather low density even in the core. The city is made up of mostly detached wooden framed single family houses. Besides for the small pockets of density in Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights, Parma actually has a higher density due to smaller houses on smaller lots. Although Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights are beautiful, they are large houses and decently large lots, lowering the density dramatically. And although Downtown Portland and surrounding neighborhoods have good density, the rest of the city is just average. East of the river matches Lakewood, and density lowers slightly the further out you go. Portland does appear to have a denser region though, and density levels dont seem to drop off as extreme as we have seen further out in the Cleveland Metro.

Cleveland, Ohio, I think you need a bit more perspective prior to constantly belittling the RTA Rapid, the Red Line in particular, for poor routing and a lack of TOD potential. What are other medium-size, moderate density cities doing that Cleveland isn’t? I first always preface this by considering how far advanced Cleveland is just by having rail rapid transit at all, especially in the so-called Rust Belt Midwest. Outside of Chicago, only St. Louis and Minneapolis-St. Paul have rapid transit at all… That means similar-sized cities (Indianapolis, Milwaukee, KC, Cincy and Columbus), and one much bigger one (Detroit) have NO RAPID TRANSIT AT ALL (no the one-track, 2.2 mile, downtown Detroit People Mover doesn’t count)… And that doesn’t count those sunbelt cities in rapidly growing regions of the country, such as: Jacksonville, Birmingham, San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Tampa-St. Pete, Orlando, and others, which also have no rapid transit at all. But for those medium-size, low density cities that DO have mass transit, have they built up-the-gut, pedestrian-friendly, easily TOD-able rapid transit lines that you say Cleveland hasn’t? Answer: No… The hard fact is that American cities that are not the mega-large (like Philly, NYC, Chicago and, LA), or older/super dense moderate (core) cities -- but that have much larger suburban areas than Cleveland (Boston, DC and San Fran) routinely cannot muster the political will to build the kind of core subway or elevated systems through dense areas that are more TOD ready as we’d all wish. Why? Because it’s always deemed too expensive for midsize cities, just like we in Cleveland sadly deemed the Dual Hub project too costly (even “gold plated”) linking downtown to University Circle up Euclid Ave – and sent the visionary RTA chief who pushed for Dual Hub packing. But again, look around… ST. LOUIS, which built a 2-line LRT somewhat longer in total than Cleveland’, is (like the Cleveland Rapid) built mostly along freight RRs through low population areas. And, just as you criticize in Cleveland, there is considerable park-n-ride along St. Louis’ LRT system… The more recent extension to Shrewsbury does have some potential in University City (near prestigious Washington University) and in near downtown Clayton and Richmond Heights near the mega Galleria Shopping Mall, but it really hasn’t generated very much TOD. St. Louis’ LRT kinda sideswipes the very dense Central West End apartment/retail district – the station is several blocks away from the core area, but directly under a hospital complex – so I guess it kinda/sorta is a walkable station. But again, is this much better than Cleveland? Where is all St. Louis’ TOD. Minneapolis opened its Hiawatha LRT about a decade ago along a highway and RR ROW to the SE, and they are opening a 10-mile, street-level extension in the median of University Boulevard to downtown St. Paul… This line will pass through some walking districts, mainly near the massive University of Minnesota campus. But given its streetcar, traffic-light stopping nature all the way into downtown Minneapolis, it will have potential auto-traffic disruption issues that will take the “rapid” out of rapid transit… A 3rd Line, which is in the environmental analysis stage, will branch some 15 miles to the SW mainly along RR and freeway rights of way. The chosen route, however, is controversial as it will totally miss the core dense apartment/walking districts along the Nicolette (Ave) and Hennepin corridors such as Uptown, Whittier, Lake-Lynn and Hennepin… Just down the Turnpike, Pittsburgh recently balked at building a 3-mile LRT connector to its existing downtown LRT subway to its extremely dense University Circle-like Oakland district (despite spending over a half $Billion for a 1.2 mile North Shore Connector under the river to Pittsburgh’s stadium(s)/casino area – go figure). Pittsburgh is now exploring BRT to its cultural, educational, medical hub… Sound familiar? Nearby smaller Buffalo, NY actually DID build a 6.4 mile up-the-gut (literally up Main Street) LRT subway line… So how’s that turning out? Despite some very respectable ridership numbers as well as stations near some walking districts, like the lively Allentown area, there has been virtually ZERO TOD in Buffalo; not to mention the City’s regressive stance in refusing to expand this orphan, starter line in its 30 years of existence – however happily now, there is some momentum for at least a short extension into nearby Amherst … And even Denver (as is much noted in the UO/Denver LRT thread) which is completing a 100-mile electrified LRT/commuter rail network, still failed to build rapid transit in its most densely populated districts to the South and East of downtown. … point being, Cleveland isn’t alone in the shortcomings you site. But it is worth noting, as KJP points out, that there is a lot more to TOD than just building rail and expecting high rise/high density mixed use buildings to spring up near rail transit stations without some kind of public education and initiative – as is the case for any city, most notably medium, moderate density ones like Cleveland. I was really just focusing on Cleveland and what is wrong with our rail system. Just because other cities make bad decisions doesn't make it ok if we do too. We haven't had rail expansion in a long time beside for the short waterfront line which was badly planned IMO. And we dont really have any strong plans for smart rail expansion in the future. Isnt Detroit building a streetcar, Cincinnati is building a streetcar, and I believe KC is planning a streetcar. These cities are all planning new routes which will probably see good ridership, leaving us behind. Our leaders need to start planning, and planning smart. Im not too familiar with the rail systems in the cities you mentioned, but ridership numbers show they have to be doing something right compared to Cleveland. Although they might also be built on the cheaper end, utilizing parts of Industrial ROW, they mostly have more well located downtown stations and serve attractions of this century. St Louis - 1993 - 2006 Minneapolis - 2004, 11 mile Green Line opens in 2014 Cleveland - Shaker Lines - 1913 - 1936, Red Line - 1958 - 1968, Waterfront Line - 1996 Buffalo - 1985 Denver - 1994 - 2006 Pittsburgh - Couldn't find Chicago - mostly very old I understand we will never be like New York or Toronto, who have 12,176,519 and 7,175,821 riders per mile respectively. But building new smartly routed light rail routes will help increase public transportation ridership, provide rail options to transit worthy neighborhoods, and present a greater potential for the development of TOD.

That is in the nicer section of CH. Not good.

^ Yeah I havent noticed any major acts skip us (those that would use the Q), but several smaller acts only come as near as Pittsburgh and Chicago. Columbus too sometimes. Actually I think Akron does pretty decent at drawing the smaller acts, probably due to Kent State and the University of Akron being right there. Ive never heard about your final statement before. Why does Cleveland have higher rent and stagehands, and how much higher is admissions tax?

I've been very interested in this the last couple days and I learned a lot about the city. After committing hours watching all of the press conferences and questions, reading all of the tweets and comments on here, I feel like I really got a good look into what the city is all about. When the line is complete, ill have to make my first trip down there and check the city out! I really look forward to it. Cincinnati really seems like a great city, even if I always spell it wrong!

I really think you need to revisit Cleveland history. Nothing's being replicated here. It IS who we are. People that don't know that simply are not knowledgable about our history. Yes money had a lot to do with the RRHOF being here, but we had a legitimate historical claim to it. Not only with Allen Freed and the Moondog Coronation Ball but also the Agora Theater, Upbeat, Mike Douglas, the original WMMS which was responsible for a LOT of national acts becoming famous. (Don't believe me? Just ask them). I've talked to people who said that Cleveland was the breeding group for the national record labels. If you could not make it in Cleveland, you wouldn't even get to New York City. Many of the labels had satellite offices here. In fact, MCA in particular had an office here as late as the mid 1990s. So, yes Cleveland is the Rock and Roll City and yes it does have deep roots in the city. Just because some outside of the city may not know it doesn't mean its not true. It means that they need to pick up a book and read about who we are and what we've done if they're interested. And if you say that the city hasn't promoted our history well, then I'd agree with that. But again, just because they haven't promote it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The information about it is readily available Thanks, great post! Yeah I dont know too much about the history, just basing it off of things ive read on UrbanOhio. It still amazes me how many acts pass us up on tours though. Everything i've seen here seemed to do very well. I wonder why they skip Cleveland.

Yeah seems almost impossible. Although they did build pretty fast back in the day...

I noticed ever since the Plain Dealer cuts, the paper has been strongly reporting every incident in Cleveland Heights. Specifically Adam Ferrise seems to writing all of these articles. Im not sure if crime is up, or if Cleveland.com is desperate for page views. Crime sells. Oddly enough, crime is often ignored in other suburbs and even in popular city neighborhoods. This writer seems to have it out for Cleveland Heights. Its still unfortunate that these crimes are being committed and it doesn't matter where the people live. If it happens it Cleveland Heights, it affects Cleveland Heights.

Ive now watched that SPCA commercial about Rocky like 30 times from refreshing the live feed the last few days.

This live feed is getting strange. Im now taking a walk through City Hall. Im not sure they know the camera is on!

^ What is considered a micro apartment, square footage wise?