Clevelander17

Heartbreaking? Morris is certainly trying to make it into that. But let's be honest, the kid is missing the first day of school, not being told that he'll have to work his life in a sweatshop instead of getting an education. Yeah you're right I took the bait.

So creating more bureaucracy is best? Come on! In a perfect world, these districts would be autonomous and as such it theoretically wouldn't be necessary to increase bureaucracy by making the districts a bit smaller. In fact it could in theory make things small enough that the people in charge could decrease bureaucracy. But we don't live in a perfect world; we live in Northeast Ohio. ;)

I love the NCES website. Here's their enrollment data (which is obviously a year or two old) for the Greater Cleveland seven county area for schools with over 2000 students: Mentor 2867 Strongsville 2486 Euclid 2271 Mayfield 2266 Brunswick 2253 Medina 2204 http://nces.ed.gov/ccd/schoolsearch/index.asp Something seems a little off about those numbers, though. The OHSAA has a different set of numbers that it uses for divisional placements.

That story is heartbreaking. This is why I think the district needs to be divided up into three or four smaller districts (each of which would then be about the size of the largest suburban districts in the state).

"Some" of the schools? Do ANY schools in NEO (or Ohio as a whole) have inter-scholastic boys volleyball? Mentor was definitely in the LEL by the late 1990s. I remember being in attendance when they beat Heights in heartbreaking fashion at Hosford Stadium in either 1997 or 1998. I think that was the same year that the Tigers had a terrific tailback who was injured in the seventh or eighth game of the year when the program was making a run at the playoffs. I also recall Shaker being an absolute juggernaut at that time, too. Mentor was definitely disliked by a number of GCC schools and I've heard that there was a particular grudge between Maple Heights and Mentor. I also recall hearing a story (don't know if it's true) that the league filed paperwork to disband and then immediately reformed without Mentor to get the Cardinals out of the league.

MTS, I think you're getting the GCC mixed up with another conference. None of those teams were ever in it, and no school west of Euclid/Brush/Maple Heights was in the conference. Clevelander17 is right about the only 9 teams to ever play in that conference, except that there were actually never more than 8 in the conference at one time (Nordonia left a couple years after Mentor left). Actually it's my understanding that there were other teams in the GCC over the years including Garfield Heights and surprisingly Berea and Midpark, but this was before the 1980s. However the nine schools I listed were the last teams in the conference (though I think you're right about them not all being there at the same time with Nordonia replacing Mentor in the final years).

A few thoughts: 1) I don't recall there ever being any Lorain County schools in the GCC, at least not when the league disbanded in the mid-1990s. I'm also fairly certain that Painesville Riverside wasn't in the league at the time, either. 2) Hockey and lacrosse have their own leagues which are self-governed and based on more than just enrollment, so that's never come into play with league affiliation. And in the sports of gymnastics and boys volleyball, so few schools have teams in those sports that I also believe that they don't matter in league affiliation, either. 3) Shaker Heights just re-did its football field (and track, too?) and I think it looks very nice. And actually, SHHS has one of the most unique and charming high school stadium setups that I've ever come across, even if it's perhaps not as state-of-the-art as some other stadiums. One more point of clarification, now that I think about it: I actually believe Euclid joined the LEL along with Bedford and Maple Heights when the GCC disbanded. For some reason I thought Euclid joined a year or two before those two schools, but I'm not sure that's correct.

"The tide is turning"? I'm paying attention and yes it does appear that the school is trying to expand residential living. That's fine, but I'm not at all convinced that it will be a primarily residential school anytime soon. It's a long ways away from that ever happening. As for being "left behind" or not fitting "the current direction," I'm not even sure what that means, but it comes off as pretty insulting. Commuters ARE Cleveland State University right now and the school wouldn't exist, let alone be able to play this game of Sim City, without us. And as the current paying customers, they have absolutely no right to sweep our needs and concerns under the rug like you seem to be suggesting that they do. That said, personally I do think that Cleveland needs a big-time public university. But we also need easily accessible and affordable basic four-year degree programs (business, education, liberal arts, etc.), and CSU has filled that role pretty much since it was taken over by the state. If it's trying to shirk that role, or serve two masters, then perhaps it needs to help Tri-C take over the role that it once served. Also change that god awful name or risk confusing potential students from Southwest and Central Ohio who will automatically think it's a community college.

All of these reasons are exactly why I was more than a little surprised and disappointed that Shaker ditched the LEL after helping to start the conference almost a century ago in favor of a Johnny-Come-Lately conference that makes almost no sense on a number of levels. Do you have any contacts at the school that can give some insight into the reasoning behind the decision? I don't know about this, from my recollection it seems like you both are sort of right on this one. Here's what I remember about the fluctuating membership of the GCC, which during its heyday I believe had nine teams (in order of departure): 1. Mentor - joined LEL in early 1990s after being "asked" to leave GCC 2. Euclid - joined LEL in mid or late 1990s 3. Bedford - joined LEL after GCC broke up 4. Maple Heights - see Bedford 5. Brush - joined WRC North after GCC broke up 6. Mayfield - see Brush 7. Nordonia - see Brush 8. Eastlake North - charter member of PAC after GCC broke up 9. Willoughby South - see Eastlake North

I understand what they were trying to do and why the schools were limited the way they were, though the polls should have been more clear about that.

The Northeast Ohio Conference exists, in my opinion, almost solely to accomodate the football scheduling needs a few elite public school programs (Mentor, Solon, Strongsville) and a few others that think they can someday be elite (Twinsburg, Medina, Brunswick). Personally I think this five county agglomeration won't last because it hasn't done enough to consider the needs (particularly travel) of the Olympic sports programs. Additionally there has been some backlash from some of the Summit County schools--even talks of forming a more local conference. Hopefully the NOC breaks up sooner rather than later and a new eastside version of the LEL can be formed with a big school division consisting of at least Cleveland Heights, Shaker Heights, Euclid, Brush, Mayfield, Mentor, and maybe even Willoughby South, Eastlake North, and/or Solon. A new Summit County league could consist of Twinsburg, Hudson, Nordonia, Stow, Cuyahoga Falls, and maybe Solon and some others.

I think it will always remain a commuter school. What percentage of students live on campus now? I bet that number still pales in comparison to the number that commute and will for the foreseeable future. Which is good, because CSU has a niche in the region and the state and shouldn't be trying to vary from that too much. Either way I'll be finishing my program in May and likely won't ever step foot on CSU's campus again. I'll be taking my business for further education elsewhere. Oh wait, I think my post needs one of these :-P so you know that the tone wasn't malicious.

Shaker surprisingly played Solon tough last night (I was really hoping they'd pull it off). In fact the Comets needed a miraculous comeback to come away with the victory. Shaker's probably going to have a decent shot at winning the Lake Division of the NOC, especially if they keep playing like they did last night. As for Heights, last night's win was impressive, but I'm having a hard time gauging how good they are this year. I know their QB is pretty good. Within the LEL, Heights' biggest challenge may come from an experienced Euclid team, though I still think the Tigers are better and should win the league again this year. I want to see how Bagley progresses.

I think Nick Foles is going to be a darn good quarterback in this league when he's given the chance (could be as soon as this year since he's backing up Mr. Glass). I enjoyed watching him at 'Zona against pretty good competition in the Pac-12 and think he'll shine with better teammates on Sundays.

I'm just going to keep telling myself that Weeden is only a rookie and can only improve.

You mean like the Jacobs? Simple principles. spend money to make money. If your budget is tight. Sell the team!! I get that owning a pro team is a big deal, but he is failing as the owner, and failing the city. Listen to him talk, he is a complete clown. Business culture starts at the top. Jacobs once told a local reporter (and I can't remember which one, though he repeated on a radio show a few weeks back) that he would never spend more than he took in. And he owned the team at a time when the economy was booming, the Browns were gone, and the front office knew what it was doing. Now all of that being said, the Dolans still stink for pocketing $30 million last year. Between that and some bad decision-making by the front office, the team was doomed to mediocrity this year. However overall, as fans, we need to temper our expectations. The best we can hope for is a Tampa Bay or Cincinnati type situation. Be competitive for a few years, maybe have a shot at a title, and then rebuild for a few years. Both of those clubs have good front offices, so that plays a big part of their success. Market size comes in to play is how consistently and to what extent a team can be competitive. The Reds are taking a completely different approach to things than the Rays. Rays are much more like, say, the A's in their approach--young talent all the time, and get rid of them (for more talent) right when they start to cost money. The Reds seem to be taking the view that they are a middle-market team that will develop most of its own talent but pay to keep it around, and hopefully contend on a year-in, year-out basis. The Reds' payroll right now is $82 million, and they are looking at significant jumps in payroll coming up with the big contracts for Votto and Phillips. They are going to be pushing $100 million within the next couple of years. My guess is that Castellini is looking at it thinking they are in line for a big jump in local TV money (and the Reds ratings have been near the top of baseball for the last couple years (on a percentage basis)). I think they want to be more like the Cardinals, and a lot less like the Rays or A's. Good points and I do agree that the Reds model could in theory be possible for the Indians organization in this market, though not with the current ownership. The one thing that the Reds/A's/Rays all have is a good front office, even if they don't all follow the same model.

Here's an interesting article about some of the issues surrounding school choice: http://www.journalgazette.net/article/20120805/EDIT05/308059977/1021/EDIT Essentially a very popular, but "failing" (per Indiana's ratings system based on testing) charter school in Indianapolis was closed down and parents there aren't happy. It raises the question as to whether or not parents should be allowed to "choose" a certain school for their kids even if that school isn't meeting state indicators. The article also discusses some interesting ideas regarding tax dollars and school choice as it pertains to other programs such as vouchers and even home-schooling. It's not a terribly long article, but it does hit on a lot of double-standards of the school choice program in Indiana and really elsewhere around the country.

This is good to hear. As I said above, I'm skeptical about that $16 million number that the mayor threw out there considering city is still supposedly talking to multiple developers. That number doesn't seem to be solid at all and sounds like it could have been made up to try to trick Acacia shareholders into voting down the offer from The Conservation Fund.

People during the 1970s were a lot more unapologetically racist than they are now. And....it wasn't all about racism. It was about the safety of their kids, and the idea of them being shipped to high crime neighborhoods where they would be targets. Those may have been perceptions, but we're talking about voluntary acts where perception is at least as important as reality. Private schools might have been an option, but recall that Bishop Hickey categorically refused to expand the Catholic schools in order to accomodate busing resisters. Ironically, this indirectly led to the demise of some of those inner city churches Bishop Lennon closed. With this kind of powerful motivation, the moves would have been made. The corridors along I-90, I-77, I-271, and I-71 just outside the county would have boomed a couple decades early. RTA would have suffered, because people who might take the bus from Maple Heights or Strongsville downtown would not have the same option in Macedonia or Brunswick. The new exurbanites would be expending their political pull to expand or build new freeways. "Sprawl" probably would have been even more extensive, earlier. I think that that analysis is debatable, especially for those with limited resources, like working class families that only had to flee a mile or two away to the nearest suburb and still had access to public transportation (which you correctly pointed out as being important). If that family were forced to move to another county--and one that did not have transportation into Cleveland--I just don't think it would have been as easy as it was to make a smaller move and as such there might have been less of those types of moves. But that's just my opinion. I lived on the west side of Maple Heights, which at the time made Parma look like Shaker Heights. The school district managed to pass a levy by spreading a rumor that if it failed, the state might take over and might merge the district into Cleveland. People were freaking, and quite serious about getting out. If it had been the whole county, it would have gone Boston, or people would have bailed as they did from Cleveland proper. You know, RTA would not have needed to form and the newly big suburbs in the outer counties would likely have their own competing bus lines, as the suburbs did before 1975 or so. One other thing: the people "left behind" would have still spread out, as they have since into the inner ring. Elbow room is something Americans in general favor, regardless of race or economic status. In the 1970s, Cleveland was the region's entertainment, educational, and most importantly, employment hub. That's the point I'm making here. These new hypothetical suburban transportation systems likely wouldn't have gone into Cuyahoga County, and even if they did, the commute time would still be four or five times what it was when these families were living in Cleveland. What I'm saying is that no matter how much these families might have wanted to leave the county in your hypothetical situation, they'd still have ties to the central city to tend to, not insignificantly, the place of employment. It's one thing to maintain employment in Cleveland while living in Euclid or South Euclid. It's a different ballgame when you're talking Chesterland or even Willoughby to some degree, let alone places further out like Aurora or Avon or Brunswick. Today is a different story because of the internet and telecommuting and even the spreading out of companies into the suburbs and exurbs.

People during the 1970s were a lot more unapologetically racist than they are now. And....it wasn't all about racism. It was about the safety of their kids, and the idea of them being shipped to high crime neighborhoods where they would be targets. Those may have been perceptions, but we're talking about voluntary acts where perception is at least as important as reality. Private schools might have been an option, but recall that Bishop Hickey categorically refused to expand the Catholic schools in order to accomodate busing resisters. Ironically, this indirectly led to the demise of some of those inner city churches Bishop Lennon closed. With this kind of powerful motivation, the moves would have been made. The corridors along I-90, I-77, I-271, and I-71 just outside the county would have boomed a couple decades early. RTA would have suffered, because people who might take the bus from Maple Heights or Strongsville downtown would not have the same option in Macedonia or Brunswick. The new exurbanites would be expending their political pull to expand or build new freeways. "Sprawl" probably would have been even more extensive, earlier. I think that that analysis is debatable, especially for those with limited resources, like working class families that only had to flee a mile or two away to the nearest suburb and still had access to public transportation (which you correctly pointed out as being important). If that family were forced to move to another county--and one that did not have transportation into Cleveland--I just don't think it would have been as easy as it was to make a smaller move and as such there might have been less of those types of moves. But that's just my opinion.

To some degree, yes. I wouldn't say that the developer in either case (Oakwood or TRW) was entirely honest in how they presented these projects to the local governments and citizens. Nor would I say that the process was very democratic because both developments are near the borders of other suburbs and residents in these suburbs had/will have their lives significantly impacted by these developments without getting any kind of say in the process...all because of a few imaginary lines drawn on a map almost a century ago. In regards to Harvard Park, the interesting thing about that entire area is that it is the meeting point of three or four different jurisdictions. Not only is there still a decent chunk of undeveloped land over there, but just because one of those jurisdictions has restrictions about a certain type of retail doesn't mean that the others couldn't welcome that retail. I do think it's interesting to consider that even before Ahuja was built, or Eaton relocated to that area, that Beachwood never took the opportunity to welcome whichever retailers you think that this region needs so badly. They realized--correctly--that such land can and should be put to better use. If Lyndhurst insists on developing Acacia, they should do something more creative with it than build more retail (even if it's supposedly high end retail) like Beachwood did with its portion of Chagrin Highlands land. Even if that means waiting until the right opportunity comes along. Let me also throw this out there. If Lyndhurst residents want a park there, then the Cleveland Metroparks should be brought to the table. After all, Lyndhurst residents are paying for parks in places like Mayfield Village, Hunting Valley, and Solon, there's no reason why the favor can't be returned.

You mean like the Jacobs? Simple principles. spend money to make money. If your budget is tight. Sell the team!! I get that owning a pro team is a big deal, but he is failing as the owner, and failing the city. Listen to him talk, he is a complete clown. Business culture starts at the top. Jacobs once told a local reporter (and I can't remember which one, though he repeated on a radio show a few weeks back) that he would never spend more than he took in. And he owned the team at a time when the economy was booming, the Browns were gone, and the front office knew what it was doing. Now all of that being said, the Dolans still stink for pocketing $30 million last year. Between that and some bad decision-making by the front office, the team was doomed to mediocrity this year. However overall, as fans, we need to temper our expectations. The best we can hope for is a Tampa Bay or Cincinnati type situation. Be competitive for a few years, maybe have a shot at a title, and then rebuild for a few years. Both of those clubs have good front offices, so that plays a big part of their success. Market size comes in to play is how consistently and to what extent a team can be competitive.

Yeah I've heard about that. I actually live near there and it would be great if that movement grew and became more than just a group that came together to deal with a one-time issue. By the way, you didn't go to the University of Dayton, did you?

I like the John Hay setup as well and I think that the district should open another 2-3 similar schools in other parts of town and maybe even expand it to make the schools grades 7-12. You probably won't find a lot of honors-only schools around the country that cater to the elementary/primary grades, but you will find a number of "alternative" public schools (IB, Montessori, etc.) that run from PK-8. CMSD might do itself a favor to open a few of these types of schools around the city as well. I should point out that I'm familiar with some gifted programs for the middle grades at the comprehensive CMSD elementary schools. For instance, at one eastside elementary school with which I've spent some time, there is a separate self-contained classroom for gifted students in grades 2-4 and 5-6. The students are usually placed based on test scores (which may or may not be entirely fair) and the classrooms are usually a bit smaller than regular CMSD classrooms. I don't know if such a thing would be enough to attract families to use CMSD, but I think the district deserves credit for doing this. Incidentally I would suspect that these separate gifted classrooms feed students into John Hay. It's unclear just how much the HCZ has improved educational outcomes and it may take decades to know. It's also unclear if such an expensive program can be repeated elsewhere around the country. The HCZ spends a lot of money per student and because of publicity has been able to attract some big-pocketed donors. It's definitely a laudable program that helps give food and healthcare to kids that wouldn't otherwise have access to such things. But I'm not sure the HCZ is the idea policy-makers can point to as the thing that's going to solve all of the problems facing urban education.

I don't have time to type out a long response, but in short the Indians market size can't be brushed off as a non-factor. It's not the only factor, but it is one of many (including terrible ownership and a mediocre front office).