jeffinmichigan

C-Dawg, your comments regarding Gov. Snyder are well-founded. For the Gaurdian to say that he has "impeccable conservative credentials" was, IMO, completely inaccurate. Some would call him a RINO. The main reason, it is thought, that he won the GOP nomination was because so many Democrats crossed-over and voted for him in the primary because he was the unknown quantity and they knew they didn't like the other jokers who were the so-called "favorites." Maybe Ohio Democrats should have done the same thing re: Kasich. Everybody knew what he was all about from the get-go. Are we suprised by the way he's turned out? Nobody bothered to ask him (Snyder) where he stood on passenger rail issues before the primary or general election. The general population probably considered that issue to be the least of Michigan's worries!

Sandusky has always been my favorite small city at which to look in your fair state. I love the formidible- looking building stock in the downtown area. I would love to see vintage photos of the same area! It was once a very busy and important place and the city's leaders obviously built on a grand scale. I had never realized that the angled streets were meant to resemble the Masonic compass and square. It's almost too obvious, now that I know! The amount of limestone used in the city is quite amazing. It is, of course, very plentiful in the area and was probably quite economical to use.

I have, thusfar, been silent on this boad re: last week's announcement of distribution of Florida's rejected funds. I've been collecting my thoughts and trying to temper my initial enthusiasm with thoughts of what could possibly go wrong. After all, improvements to the passenger rail service between Detroit and Chicago is something that has been much talked-about for 25 years or so. I am wary of being dissapointed. I have spoken to an employee of MDOT's Rail Services division who said that due to the state's relative lack of money and the sausage-making process that is the budgeting process, there will not be much in the way of freight improvements for him to help over-see this construction season. It is his feeling and his hope, that MDOT will throw much of its remaining rail-related staff into the completion of this project. He says this from a somewhat selfish standpoint due to the fact that he needs to put in three more years before retiring. He also said, however, that MDOT is best suited to transparently let the bids out on a competitive basis in order to ensure the maximum benifit from these dollars. It is his feeling (and mine) that Norfolk Southern, the current owner of the line, would try to pocket as much of the money as possible while trying to do things on the cheap. It is no secret that they are trying to rid themselves of the line and are pressing the issue with Amtrak and MDOT by placing artifically low speed restrictions on the track for long stretches. It is important to note that this line isn't exactly teeming with freight trains that would cause these defects through tonnage. Simultaneously. NS is trying to maximize the amount they recieve from this asset, which, as a publicly-held company, they owe to their stock-holders. The down side of this is that the $150 mil. grant specifically for the line's purchase announced last year has yet to be utilized. Hopefully MDOT will end up being in charge of the money and we will know soon when things will start happening on this important and growing line. If I uncover any further details, I will share it under this topic. Wish us luck up here!

When are the growing number of people who actually ride trains going to realize that nobody rides trains anymore? :roll:

Though your Governor is no saint- he is, at least, what he has appeared to be all along. Your neighbors to the north have had some of the same "buyer's remorse" with Gov. Snyder due to the fact that he never really made it clear WHAT kind of governor he would be, if elected. Now that the types of decisions he is making are coming to light, people are not quite as enamoured with him. Even a lot of my Republican family and friends are really dissappointed with him. Kasich doesn't appear to have a compromising bone in his body, though. That is what rubs me the wrong way about him and makes me glad he is not my Governor. He seems to be cut out of the same cloth as the gang that just took over in Washington. Historically, the Center has always been the best place to plant one's feet when governing. Those who govern from the extreme ends of the spectrum tend to make the most enemies. Though I don't know if Michigan will be leaving anyone in the dust in ANYTHING in the foreseeable future, I will say this about the rail discussion as it relates to our state: There is not any widespread opposition or even fear of improvements to Michigan's passenger rail infrastructure. It has been supported and expanded under administrations of both parties and has never been a campaign theme. We are not as far along with it as we should be nor are we ready to pull the plug on it either. It's just always just been there and we are lucky to be able to say that. Occasionally, one will find a letter to the editor decrying continued funding to Amtrak on the national level, or something of that nature but it is usually the ramblings of someone parroting something they heard on conservative talk-radio (Is there really any other kind of talk radio anymore? Other than sports talk). I will give credit to Gov. Snyder for being willing to accept any and all help from the Feds re: passenger rail. He is, at least, smart enough to realize that accepting money for something that can benefit the citizens and communities of his state is more important than worrying about thowing up opposition to the guy in the White House just on politcal principles-benefits to the state-be-damned! Kasich is nothing more than a blow-hard political idealogue. Snyder is a guy whose unpopularity comes about by having to make unpopular decisions.

Detroit was laid-out (as some one mentioned above) in a wheel and spoke pattern. Woodward, Grand River, Michigan, and Gratiot Avenues as well as Fort Street are the "spokes" and they are, indeed, wide. Their width was prescibed nearly 200 years ago and is not the result of poor planning in the present. While three lanes of traffic in each direction as well as a left turn lane and parking lanes on the sides is the norm on these streets, most streets in the City of Detroit's residential areas are wide enough for parking on one side with two lanes of traffic. It is also worth noting that the State of Michigan's Department of Transportation picks up the tab for a large portion of the maintainence on the large streets I mentioned, as they are all state trunkline highways. Don't the Feds and ODOT pick up the tab on Broad Street through Columbus, for example? Without consulting a map, I seem to recall that it is (or at least, was) the route of US-40. The original poster does bring up an interesting point, though: What is the "Incredible Shrinking City" to do with all of that infrastructure? There are some blocks in Detroit with literally ONE house left standing! Yet that street remains paved, the streetlights remain lit, the water main is maintained, the sewer continues to drain, etc...$$$! Meanwhile in the suburbs people complain that their streets are not wide enough to handle the traffic, their wells are drying up due to so many people drawing from the same aquifer and their lakes are experiencing elevated bacteria levels as a result of seepage from septic systems. Ain't sprawl great?

It is true, Ken, the RRIF loans are a PAIN IN THE ARSE to apply and qualify for. The reason for so few being given out is that so few are being applied for. The ironic thing is that Rep. Mica was the chairperson of the Transportation Committee when the RRIF program was first authorized (If I recall correctly). Nothing wrong with fixing things after the fact. It will be interesting to see if they try to blame the lack of current interest in the RRIF program on the current administration and the last Congress even though the program predates both of their reigns.

Imagine how much more those ridership numbers would increase with improved time-keeping and more available coaches! Reliablility with incremental improvements in speed could work wonders and make these latest numbers look like child's play.

My wife and I have standing orders with our childrens' teachers to be informed as soon as any class-room disciplinary problems pop-up. We want to nip them in the bud before they become chronic. I am not a parent who takes a "not MY kid" type of attitude. The story that Robert tells does raise some good points as to why teachers probably shouldn't be given carte-blanche to use corporal punishment in the classroom: What if the teacher is on a power trip and enjoys punishing certain kids and can do it by hiding behind what is legal? After all, it's the kid's word against his.

My use of the term "Symboled train" was really a reference to "Road Trains" vs. "Local Trains." A road train is any train that is regularly scheduled (though not always daily) between two or more points on a given railroad but does not stop along the way to switch cars out at individual customer sidings. That work would befall the "Locals." You are correct, though Ken: EVERY train does have a symbol, strictly speaking. Local and yard crews often refer to them as the name of their starting point or turn-back point in informal situations, though. Sorry for the confusion.

I would love to ask your Governor-elect where he thinks all of the money to build, maintain and operate every single airport in this country (that I can think of) comes from. The privately-held airlines wouldn't be able to build and maintain that kind of infrastructure without the bonding authority that governmental authorities have. If airports in and of themselves were expected to make money we'd still be flying in planes which landed on grass strips next to an old barn. Most airport terminals are built with at least a large portion of public money with the tenant airlines picking up some of the tab but the runways are, from my understanding, built with FEDERAL GRANT MONEY. Once built, the authority which runs the airport has to (gasp!) MAINTAIN THEM! If this is a satisfactory model for doing things with Airports why isn't it fine for passenger trains, Mr Kasich? Airports and freeways are built for the greater good of the state or region which they serve in order to enable mobility and commerce. They are not resonably expected to turn a profit. Why are passenger trains not included in the equation? I understand that gate fees, etc pay for a lot of the day-to-day operational costs of running an airport but in the interest of brevity and staying on topic I chose not to get into the finer points. We must not anger the moderator gods!

I am a freight railroad professional and I can attest, annecdotally, that the activity on the freight railroads has skyrocketed in the last year to 18 months. Symboled trains which, last fall, were running with 20 to 30 cars are now running with 80 to 100 cars. The economy is back in certain sectors. We need to get used to the fact that a housing boom may not be on the horizon. Too many people were negatively touched by the housing bust for it to come charging back. Besides, the last thing we need is more urban sprawl! A new metric of the economy may be to watch the relative length of freight trains. As someone who sees them EVERY day I can attest to the fact that they are an excellent barometer of economic activity.

ZachariahDaMan, you are a keen observer of detail (though this is evident by looking at your photos). Indeed, the vacant lot you recently noticed was, in fact, the site of Jonesville's fire on November 22, 2009. On late Sunday afternoon, nearly a year ago, a fire broke out in the basement of the Chicago Water Grill, a popular fine-dining establishment on the Northeast corner of Chicago and Water streets. That address was the oldest commercial building in Hillsdale county and quite possibly the entire state of Michigan. The two story, Federal Style, brick building was constructed in the late 1840s. At least 12 fire departments from throughout the area responded as there were fears that the fire would march Eastward and take the whole block. A combination of good firefighting, stoutly-built fire walls of multiple layers of brick and mortar as well as favorable winds combined to contain the fire to just the aforementioned building. May's Furniture was housed in the east half of the building as well and it was a total loss and has not re-opened at another address. The silver lining in all of this is that the owner of the Chicago Water Grill is currently in the process of rebuilding. He is constructing a 1.5 to two story building of steel frame construction that is wrapped in dark brick (hand-laid; not pre-fab!). The entrance is on the corner and quite the architectural detail looks to be in store for a dramatic corner entrance to a modern and bold building befitting of such a prominent location. I would be happy to post pictures of both the fire and the construction, if you are interested. Oddly enough, the fire which occured in a restaurant/bar in Litchfield less than four weeks ago also started in the basement while the bar was closed. There may still be YouTube videos available that were posted soon after the fire!

Midwest Amtrak route ridership has spiked 55% since 2005? That stat flies in the face of those who say that Northeast Corridor-like population density is needed for passenger rail to really work. In some cases here, in the Midwest, the only thing keeping the numbers from going even higher is a lack of equipment! If there were more cars on the trains, they'd be even fuller!

Perhaps Ken and others could speak to this thought I've had and perhaps it's already been discussed somewhere in the previous 153 pages of this thread (If so, I appologize): Is is possibe that reviving rail service in the 3-C corridor is a hard-sell due to the fact that it has been nearly 40 years since the cities were connected to each other? For example, other midwestern corridors such as StL-Chi, Det-Chi, Mil-Chi have always had service from the very first day of Amtrak's operation. In other words it is hard for the majority of the population to even remember when trains connected Cleveland with Cinci via Columbus. Those who DO remember may only recall crappy service toward the end with slow trains operated by unmotivated freight railroads. Up here, in the "Enchanted Mitten" we lost a lot of route-miles of passenger service upon Amtrak's inception but new services (Bluewater and Pere Marquette) were easier to get off the ground because there was already a somewhat local example to which we could point. Don't get me wrong, my Buckeye friends, our passenger trains in Michigan have plenty of room for improvement but perhaps we are spoiled by never having lost them. The same holds true in Illinois, as well. It seems as though the states that are having the least amount of resistance to their rail plans are those which have had it all along. Either that, or we have a more rational brand of Republican around here!

Interesting news, Robert. In my part of Michigan there have been four downtown fires in the last year in the near-to-eachother towns of Jonesville, Union City, Athens and Litchfield. All of them in historic structures in downtown business districts. The fire investigators have been befuddled in all of them, as far as I last heard (or read). I'm not saying that these are connected to Paoli in any way but stranger things have happened! Though the building in Paoli looks as though it was quite the tinderbox. Sad, nonetheless.

Natininja, perhaps I ran with the wrong people from Columbus but they pronounced it "Sci-oh-tuh." I always thought that to be kind of funny, perhaps I was right. Johio, I figured (apparently incorrectly) that Olentangy was a Native-American word. If the original name had stuck I wonder if it would somehow be abbreviated by all the locals like the Monongehela River is is Pittsburgh.

This topic fascinates me. I have always had an ear for little differences in the speech patterns of people and try to guess where they call home based on the way they sound. I'm not saying that I am good at it but it is fun to do. As someone who lives in the border counties of Michigan's lower peninsula, I am in close proximity to both Ohio and Indiana and can say that folks on just the other side of the border sound just like me. In fact, it seems as though that can be said to be true of folks from Gary IN to Cleveland. But to my ears, someone from Lima sounds completely different than someone from Bryan. Something about the vowels changes when one crosses US 30 in both Ohio and Indiana. I am, however, aware of the nasal qualities present in my native speech patterns and try to keep them in check when speaking with someone not of my region. There is also a gradual shift in speech in Michigan from South to North. If you were to listen to someone from the Western portions of the Upper Peninsula and compare them to me you wouldn't even guess we were from the same state! There was a kid who moved to my school from Wooster, OH when I was in 5th grade, or so. He was a nice kid but I remember everyone taking note of his the way he spoke ("I'm from Weewster, Oohighoow.") Being 5th graders, naturally we handled it in a sensitive manner. One thing that I notice about my friends in the Hoosier state, however, is how many of them, regardless of social standing, seem to use the word "seen" in the place of "saw." That drives me nuts. People do it here, in Michigan, as well but they are usually not the "Rhodes Scholar" types! For those who say that Columbus has no accent: How do you pronounce the names of the larger of the two rivers that runs through town? Don't get me started on how to pronounce "Bellefontaine." That's just generations of institutional stupidity on display!

Downtown Flint used to be so much more dense than it now appears. That so much of it has survived in such decent shape is really amazing, all things considered. The area currently occupied by parts of the University of Michigan's Flint campus was once full of scores of two to five story buildings which gave the city much character. If they were still in existance, though they would be monuments of decay, no doubt. Among some of the Jewels that were long-ago lost are two downtown railroad depots. The Pere Marquette depot was absolutely beautiful as well as a very hansome Grand Trunk Depot. Both railroads bypassed downtown Flint with new mainlines by the middle of the 20th century. Amtrak's "Bluewater Service" trains and Greyhound busses stop several miles East of downtown at a modern station off of the Dort Hwy-I-69 exit. As is so often the case, the Freeways which make downtown Flint so easily accessable also destroyed portions of it. Neither I-475 or I-69 afford good views of downtown Flint since both roadways are constructed below-grade. The amount of wealth created and lost in the City of Flint over the last 100 years is mind-boggling. The American Icons it has given us (Chevrolet, Buick, General Motors) are easily taken for granted and dismissed as icons of another era. That may be true but it is important that we remember what Flint and smaller cities like it have given to the world before we write their obituary.

What is most disturbing about the chart posted by KJP is that the Blue and Yellow portions have moved steadily upward over the long-term. One could attribute this to inflation but the Railroad numbers are essentially static! Your Ohio Republicans keep citing the cost of maintaing a rail system down the road as to why they don't want take the Federal money. If Washington insisted that Ohio build a new freeway between points A, B and C where one currently doesn't exist, would they turn the money down? After all, they'd have to maintain it!

If Ohio doesn't want the money, I can think of a state just to your north with many filled -to-capacity trains that could use MORE capacity and even HIGHER speeds. Ohio is building the US-24 freeway between Toledo and the Indiana state line. You will continue to pay to maintain it until the next ice-age. Apparently that is okay with the Republican leadership. Ohioans won't have trains to ride but at least the Republicans will have taught the Governor a lesson! Isn't it nice that they're looking out for you?

Reading the comments after the article give a dose of the stick-in-the-mud mentality of many of our fellow midwesterners. They apparently think all of their beloved highways were built and are maintained by the grace of God and cost nothing. Mayor Barrett is a cool cat by any measure, though. His political fortunes are well worth watching. If he doesn't get caught up in anti-Obama backlash from the teabaggers and their ilk, he could be a national figure within the next six to eight years.

I am afraid that the 500 lb. gorilla in the room when speaking of "Why People Live in the 'Burbs" can be boiled down to two words: Schools and Racism. Granted: There are several generations of folks who were born and raised in suburbs who know no other way and can't be blamed for where they live but I'm addressing the original, post-WWII Genesis of Suburban sprawl in America. What's this have to do with passenger trains in 21st Century Ohio, you ask? Plenty. Suburban sprawl made people more dependant upon their autos and less apt to use other modes of transport for short to mid-range trips. The government was building highways "out there" so why not take advantage of it? The problem is that, as with most things in America, we went overboard with our love of our automobiles and before we knew it our trains were nearly gone. Ohio is a great state but is woefully behind most every other state in the country of similar size when it comes to transportation options. Ohio's citizens deserve a choice when it comes to travelling from one corner of the state to another. Highways don't pay for themselves, Airports don't either. Why do so many people hold Passenger Rail to a different standard? I haven't flown in over 10 years. This is due in large part to the fact that I have five children and to fly my whole family somewhere would be prohibitively expensive. I don't spend my time griping about how much Airports cost me, the "Average Taxpayer." I realize that they are a needed public asset even though there isn't one in my town. Just because an individual might not envision HIMSELF riding a 79mph train on the 3-C Corridor doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered as a worthwhile public investment. A comprehensive rail network across Ohio isn't an Urban or Suburban issue. It is an issue that has the potential to benefit cities and towns of all sizes. It is an issue for all of Ohio. I shall now dismount my soapbox.

I am new to UrbanOhio but have been lurking on a few of the topics here and am impressed with the intelligent level of exchange. Someone had earlier mentioned that it is hard to imagine the current MAW Right-of-Way hosting speedy passenger trains but I think that it is the logical solution for linking Toledo to Chicago with quality passenger rail service. This is due to several factors: 1. Lack of Freigt Train Interference. The NS "Water Level Route" is a very busy line for freight trains, as we all know. The MAW could continue using their line to serve their smattering of freight customers at night with minimal risk of interference to pax ops. 2. Larger population base. One thing that seems to be over-looked is the fact that not only is FTW Indiana's 2nd largest metropolis but via the MAW/former PRR route you would bring a host of mid-sized county seat communities on line as well that might support flag stop or limited scheduled stops. Communities such as Napoleon, Defiance, Columbia City, Warsaw, Plymouth, Valpo would all be worth looking at. Perhaps not every train would stop at every station but an "A" train and "B" train type of system could be set up. For example, obviously EVERY train would stop at FTW but every other train might stop at Napoleon, Defiance, Warsaw, etc. 3. Don't Worry about S. Bend and Elkhart. S. Bend has the South Shore providing service to Millenium station and is also right next door to Niles, Michigan which ALREADY sees eight trains/day. 4. Reroute Capitol and Lake Shore Ltd via PRR/MAW routing. This would provide more dependable service for these trains on the first leg of their Eastboud journeys. Only stop these trains in Fort Wayne and Toledo. Let 'em really stretch their legs! 5. Routing trains via Fort Wayne allows for shared route for future Columbus-Lima-FTW-CHI service. The possibilities are exciting. It is difficult for many midwesterners to envision a new paradigm in mobility but they have no idea of how much development could be spawned by such rail transportation. I liken to the Washington Metro effect. When the Metro was being built for the DC area there were some area where the NIMBY effect was great (Georgetown). Those areas were left off the Metro Rail Map. Other areas (Crystal City, VA) that were outposts of the DC urban area have since become very well-developed and valuable pieces of land due in no small part to the Metro Rail service they enjoy (Metro's current woes not withstanding). I realize that comparing the Metro in DC to the Ohio Hub plan is akin to comparing apples and oranges but parallels CAN be drawn. The effects won't be evident in such concentrated ways as one would find in DC but the town on line will have distinct advantages over those off-line. Keep up the good fight, Fort Wayne! Northwest Ohio as well as Central Ohio could benefit greatly from your inclusion in any future passenger rail link to the Windy City.