gbk0114

I've actually have been doing some research on this same topic for the past week or so (for a completely different reason). Those numbers are pretty close to what I came up with, though I would add Strongsville in with the "airport" hotels. The 306-room Holiday Inn in Strongsville is techincally "Holiday Inn Cleveland-Strongsville Airport." It's actually the second largest of the "airport" hotels outside of the Marriot on 150th. My numbers (and I included the Super 8 that is next to the Strongsville Holiday Inn) has the Airport numbers at 4,392 (that includes all the national brand hotels/motels in Strongsville, Middleburg, Brook Park, Cleveland (non-downtown southwest side), Brooklyn and North Olmsted). Overall, I haven't even gotten to the east side of Cuyahoga County, but from what I've gathered, the hotel breakdown in Western Cuyahoga County breaks down like this (now adding Independence, Westlake and Lakewood): 1. Independence - 1,704 2. Cleveland (airport only) - 1,282 3. Middleburg - 1,271 4. Westlake - 984 5. North Olmsted - 708 6. Brook Park - 547 7. Strongsville - 399 8. Brooklyn - 185 9. Lakewood - 106 That comes up to a total of 7,186 on the west side of Cuyahoga. When added to roughly 5,000 (as has been pointed out on here) in downtown/UC numbers, Cuyahoga is over 12,000. While I haven't gotten to it yet, I'm sure there are easily more than 3,000 rooms on the east side, putting Cuyahoga County over the 15,000 mark (basically I'm seconding the work you and your brother already did). There is no doubt that anywhere in Cuyahoga County would be included in the "half-hour radius," when it comes to a presidential convention. The real question is, how many of these rooms are 3-star or better? I'm trying to break that down, though so far only have the west side broken down. It comes out to this: 5-star - 0 4- star - 537 (7.5 percent) 3-star - 4520 (62.9 percent) 2-star - 2129 (29.7 percent) 1-star - 0 I'll be the first to admit that I'm not an expert on how Cleveland compares to any other city its size in terms of sheer volume of hotels, nor the percent of quality hotels. But just going to go off the assumption that all the 5,000 rooms that have been mentioned in downtown and UC on here are at least 3-star quality, if you add that up with the 4,520 on the west side, then Cuyahoga County has at least 9,500 rooms of that quality. That's not even taking into account the east side, which should bump that number to the 12,000 range. Maybe somebody with more hotel knowledge can go further in how that compares to similar "convention" cities.

KJP, Just for some clarification, that Faith Family Church building isn't housed at "the Hoover plant". The main Hoover building is in downtown North Canton (and yes, it is being redeveloped). The building off I-77 that is shown, while probably a Hoover warehouse or distribution center at one point, is actually not even in North Canton, but Jackson Township. The original Hoover plant is pretty impressive: http://www.flickriver.com/photos/9385421@N08/7081828319/ http://www.cardcow.com/337292/hoover-company-north-canton-ohio/ A rendering of the redevelopment: http://www.google.com/imgres?q=hoover+plant+north+canton&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&biw=1366&bih=644&tbm=isch&tbnid=SQegoLIsbD42tM:&imgrefurl=http://www.wksu.org/news/story/21763&docid=jHdaU3zJF8C8LM&imgurl=http://www.wksu.org/news/images/21763/Hoover4.JPG&w=640&h=480&ei=cqpJUKnvMsLa0QGru4CoDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=612&vpy=237&dur=493&hovh=192&hovw=257&tx=120&ty=78&sig=105289005373250583724&page=2&tbnh=144&tbnw=197&start=18&ndsp=24&ved=1t:429,r:20,s:18,i:197 I drive by the Trinity Gospel Temple everyday, though I couldn't tell you what grocery store was there before. However, the more bizarre example of reuse is the PayDay Loans that opened up at the former Wendy's across the street. Can't find a picture, but yes, you can now get a super high-interest loan in the same aisle you used to order a junior double cheesburger.

No, I understand it completely. Your second and third sentences are valid, and often times those cases are reported to local media as "murders", but not the Feds as such. That's why there usually is a slight differences between local numbers and the Fed numbers. Though, it's very, very unlikely that the city of Cleveland is having 40-50 of those types of cases per year. Now, your last sentence makes a lot of sense, though. I'm willing to bet that a bulk of the under-reported numbers are unsolved cases where the police haven't been able to get enough leads to target a suspect. In those cases, they may figure "no suspect, no murder" in the Fed report since they don't know whether or not the killing was justified. Doesn't make it right, but that is the only way some of the numbers are so different recently ... though 2008 seems to be simply the city either resubmitted the mid-year numbers, or the Feds mistakingly used the mid-year numbers in the final report. I did a search to try to find it to no avail, but I remember reading the mid-year report that year, and it had Cleveland at 55. Lastly, it seems like the huge disparity also is a recent thing for Cleveland (2006 to current), the rest of the Fed numbers are almost identical to the numbers the city released to the local media. So, something definitely changed in how the city is reporting its numbers to the Feds. For example, I remember specifically reading an article in the PD in 1991 about the city having 175 murders. ... It was a big deal because it was a 10-plus year high. The Fed numbers also show 175 for that year. Same thing in 1997. Again, I remember reading in the PD that there were 77 murders (I remember that because it was the first time in my lifetime that Cleveland dipped below 100 in a year). Again, that lines up with the Fed numbers. Interesting that Mike McGrath became Police Chief in 2005 and Mayor Frank Jackson was also elected in 2005. Since then, there have been the big disparities. Coincidence?

That is true, which is why there usually is some disparity between what departments report to the local media and what they ultimately report to the Feds (see jbcmh reference to Columbus in 2011 with the Dispatch reporting 93, but the Feds listing 87 ... that is a normal disparity), but in Cleveland's case, the numbers have been way to different, you're talking about a difference of 40-50. That's just too much of a disparity to be legit. Overall, don't mean to sway this thread off topic, but just pointing out that the city of Cleveland has tended to be a city that vastly under-reports its murder numbers to the Feds. Not sure what the motive is, maybe to make the city seem safer to outsiders?

jbcmh, You're 2011 homicide numbers for Cleveland are off. Maybe 59 is what they reported to the Feds, but it is a bogus number (and I've seen some similar instances where other cities way under-report their murder numbers to the Feds, not just Cleveland). According the the Plain Dealer, Cleveland had 88 murders in 2011. Here's the article http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/cleveland_homicides_up_in_2011.html I take it the Plain Dealer got the numbers directly from the Cleveland Police Department since there are quotes from the chief. At 88 murders, the rate is roughly 22.2 per 100,000, which has been about average for the last 20 years, but significantly lower than other years since 2005. Off the top of my head, I believe the rate has been as low as 15 (in the late 90s) and as high as the mid 30s in the early 90s. It has reached the low 30s as recently as 2009 when there were 122 murders (though the feds show the number as 86.) Overall, the Fedstats numbers for Cleveland seem to be in line with what has been reported by local sources up until 2006. Since then, they have been vastly under-reported in every year but 2010. For example, in 2008 Fedstats has Cleveland for 55 for the year, the actual number was 102 (the 55 number was what Cleveland was at at the mid-year report and Fedstats kept the same number for the end-of-year number). Cleveland's actual 50 year low is 75, which was almost matched in 2010 (though the population is half what it was the last time so few homicides had occurred). Cleveland's more accurate numbers since 2005 are: 2005- 114 (Festats lists 109) 2006- 119 (Fedstats lists 77) 2007- 134 (Fedstats lists 90) 2008- 102 (Fedstats lists 55) 2009- 122* (Fedstats list 86) (11 were the Sowell victims who weren't all killed in 2009.) 2010- 77 (Fedstats lists 81) 2011- 88 (Fedstats doesn't have a number, but the 59 you used is off). Overall, yes, the stats have been better for Cleveland the last two years when compared to the five before that, but it still has had an alarmingly high overall homicide rate. Even the 77 in 2010 represents a rate of 19.4, which is good compared to what it had been recently, but still way too high. If anything, Cleveland is trending away from being one of the 10 most dangerous cities (like it had been from 2005-2009) to one of the 30 most dangerous (like it was for much of the 90s to mid-2000s). One more thing, you didn't mention Canton, but it's been an intriguing city to follow recently. It has traditionally been on the more dangerous side (making the top 50 most dangerous several times by morgan quinto when it qualified for the rankings), but has now seen a drastic see-saw in its murders. In 2009, there were 14 (which tied as a the most ever in the city ... though it was a probably a slight abberation since there were two triple-murders in the city that year). But in 2010 the number went down to 2 (which was a 45-year low). Then in 2011, the number jumped to 17 (which was easily the city's all-time high). But this year, there are only 3 so far (IIRC) and two of those happened in January. So, if it holds up, 2012 will be another on the safer end for the city (which has averaged about 9 per year). I don't know what it means, but interesting nonetheless.

I love the U of Akron and think Dr. Proenza is great. I'm an alum for both undergrad and grad school. My problem is that the U of A has a very poor record for the "urban" aspect of their planning. Just look at the new dorms by the stadium; there is no street or sidewalk presence whatsoever. Same goes for the Polsky building, which is confounding since it's right in the heart of downtown. This is a premier location downtown and it's been turned into an unwelcoming fortress on Main. It's a real wasted opportunity. Plus, the placement and design of the latest parking garages show me they have no conceptual bearing on what makes a community walkable and vibrant. Instead it seems the University has a much more suburban and car-oriented mentality about things. So ironic when you're trying to shed the dreaded commuter school image. I hope the new development has a better urban context, but since the plan is to scour the earth with virtually all new construction I have some doubts. At best it can be like the Arena District in Columbus...sure some of the character seems manufactured, a little bit sterile, but attractive architecture that fits in with the city surroundings. At worst, I'm thinking suburban lifestyle center like Crocker Park...soulless, fake-ish and cheap looking. I hope that's not the case. Akron is a city of great history and deserves better than that. Republicrats stole some of my thunder, though I pretty much agree with everything he/she said. Especially the new residential on Exchange. That's a prime example of UA being urban friendly, especially if you remember what was there before ... a suburban style National City Bank and a UA building (can't remember the name) that was surrounded by parking lots on all sides. Now it's built at street level, with retail on the bottom level. The interior is a green space courtyard. That is 1,000 percent improved over what was there. I also agree about the parking garage. You can argue about putting it right on Exchange, but where else would they put it? I guess they could've put it on the other side of Exchange and put the aformentioned dorms on the campus side of the street. But you have to figure that building it how the university did, made more sense because there are far more people who are parking in the deck than people who are living in the dorms across the street. So it gives an easier path to campus (crossing Exchange) to more people. Plus, it seems like the university is about keeping the south side of exchange as the retail portion, at least the area between Wolfs Ledges and Brown. Since you're talking about a fringe area of campus, not a big deal. I also don't see how anybody can complain about the new dorms around the stadium, especially if it ever gets completed like it was planned. Remember what was in that area before? Dorms surrounded by surface lots and a couple of crummy houses on Nash. Now you potentially have dorms built to the street surrounded by a stadium. And if those dorms ever get built where they wrap around the stadium, like planned, I'm sure you could see some first-level retail incorporated. Anybody who remembers what UA looked like even a decade ago, can't really question the university's efforts to make campus more pedestrian friendly and less car dependent. I remember when Union and Carroll streets where open to cars and went right through what is essentially the center of campus. If UA was trying to cater to suburban-style, car dependent students, they would've kept those streets open. That alone, made the campus 100 times more walkable. Before, the area was congested with cars and was a drop-off zone up and down. Now, the only real drop-off zone is the circle off of Buchtel Ave. Lastly, as far as new construction vs. preserving what is already near campus, I'm all for new construction because, as long as it's built to street level, there really isn't anything along Exchange that can't be touched. We're not exactly talking High Street along the OSU campus. Though the university did bungle that with allowing McDonald's to rebuilt between Sherman and Allyn (horrible decision). Still, the entire strip between Sherman and Brown (including the new McDonald's) can be torn down and rebuilt and be way better than it currently is, if it's done right. If that makes it feel like the Arena District, so be it (not that I think there's anything wrong with the Arena District anyway). It definitely won't be Crocker Park.

Just look at the first project KUD lists on its website to see why the company would be attracted to Akron. Like UCF, The University of Akron is a growing campus that is transforming itself from a commuter school, to a traditional university. While Akron is nowhere near the size of UCF, UA main campus still is the third largest in Ohio with over 25,000 students. surfohio, Not sure why the pessimism. The university is going to be highly involved in this project. Say what you want about the city of Akron, but under Dr. Proenza, UA has arguably had more new construction than any other university in Ohio in the last decade. And that is without the same kind of endowment other university's have at their exposal. The good news is, that the UA endowment has doubled in the last decade, so I don't see the momementum slowing any time soon.

I think there is a direct correlation between losses in Tremont and the gains (25 percent) in Riverside. What happened in the last 10 years? The Valley View housing projects were torn down and replaced with mixed income units. Where did a chunk of those low income residents go? I'd guess Riverside, since the tract that boomed in population is largely made up of the Riverside housing projects. I think some of the gains in Central can be explained by that as well. Wasn't the Longwood housing projects completely torn down in the late 90s (or was that early 2000s). If it was in the late 90s, then I could see how Central lost a lot of population. But those projects have been completely rebuilt (and actually livable now), which could explain an increase. It's radical, and don't know how feasible it is, but I think the county (CMHA) should look into selling its properties (which are mainly in the Central neighborhood) to private developers. Then use the profits to purchase properties in blighted neighborhoods in Mount Pleasant (etc.) and place public tenants there. It's dispersion, but at least you'd be moving the people relying on public housing away from the city's core, which (outside of the lake) is Cleveland's biggest asset. I'd keep the new Longwood property (but make it the most stringent to get in), but sell off Riverview, Outwaithe, King-Kennedy, Morris Black, Cedar Estates and maybe even Garden Valley (though don't see a developer interested in that property yet) and move residents to readily available houses (which in a lot of cases can be bought for less than $1,000) away from downtown.

This is up my alley because I've been a big hip hop/rap fan since my childhood in the mid- to late-80s. First of all, I think MGK can do a lot for Cleveland's image, and I think he is somebody who will continue to represent the city. In fact, I think he can be what Bone set out to be. Let's not forget that when Bone first went big, they attempted to build Cleveland into the first rap mecca outside of New York or Los Angeles. Unfortunately, unlike Outkast (The Dungeon Family, which around the same time, exploded into dozens of other artists not-affiliated with the group but has made Atlanta the No. 3 city for rap), the artists Bone signed weren't able to gain traction into mainstream success. Bone then started going outside the area to sign talent (also to no avil), and when Bone itself wasn't able to crossover with commerical success, everything died. But Bone did release "Mo Thugs: Family Scriptures" in 1996, which went platinum. It was a collarboration of Cleveland rappers. A couple of groups on that album had promise. Poetic Hustlaz released an album a year or two later, while it had great production and some deep songs, by that time hip hop had fully become commerical (money, cash, hoes) and never gained a national following. Graveyard Shift (another talented group that wasn't commerical enough to make it big time, but had talent the talent to gain an underground following, was derailed after one of its three members, Tombstone, was gunned down in Garfield Heights ... the fourth original member, Boo, was also gunned down several years earlier, the day of Bone's first major concert in Cleveland). There were other local artists II True, Soujah Boy (the original) and Ken Dawg, who were on that album, but none were able to have any success. II True released an album, but like Poetic Hustlaz, it flopped. Still, Bone was one of the most successful music groups for a 5-6 year period and gave Cleveland a lot of noteriety in the 90s. I expereinced that everytime I would go out of state and say I'm from Cleveland. The first question always was, "Do you know Bone?" But once Bone fell off, the local scene, at a national level, died for almost a decade before Ray Cash (Pimp in my own mind, Bumping my music) had a little success about 3-4 years ago. Now Kid Cudi is out there, but even though he has the song "Cleveland is the city" hasn't done much, outside of Chip tha Rippa, to put Cleveland back on the map. Maybe MGK can be the person who can do that. He seems to have the lyrical skills, the personality, the grasp of the current hip hop scene and the love for Cleveland to do so.

The Hispanic and Latino population always throws a wrench in the stats. I even do it sometimes. One day I might feel like marking Latino (Panamanian), most of the time I just mark black, and then other times I'll fill in multiracial or other. Many studies I had to do for my stats class were thrown off because of this mess, and people like me. Lol I just quickly checked the Census figures from Painesville again, and it seems that 2,583 picked the category Some Other Race, and 872 chose Two or More Races. That seems like an unusually large number for a town of less that 20K! I demand a Congressional investigation and a recount! Lol Actually these days I know more and more people are identifying as more than one race. Maybe it's a good way to boost the figures for your town :wink: (then again, when I was growing up in there in the Middle Agesthe 60'sthe only Hispanics were a handful of Puerto Ricans) Once the more detailed data sets are released, you'll be able to get a complete breakdown, which will add up to 100 percent when you look at the "white/black/asian/etc. alone" categories. But with these general numbers, they count people in several different categories. And it's not at all surprising that a city with a high Hispanic/Latino population adds up well over 100 percent, because about 90 percent of Latino/Hispanics are lumped into the "White" category. Another 10 or so percent may also be lumped into the "black" category. Once the detailed sets come out, Painesville's hispanic population will remain where it is now (because they stand alone but also get lumped into white/black categories), but you'll see a very sharp decrease in white alone and black alone categories. ... The same can be said about people who marked multi-race.... they are getting counted in any race they marked on top of the multi-race category. But once the "alone" numbers are out, it will even out. I'm just guessing on this, but I could see Painesville, when the "alone" details are released, coming in around 50 percent (white alone) 10 percent (black alone) 22 percent (hispanic) 10 percent (other ... this group, from what I've been able to gather is mainly hispanics who aren't either Mexican, Puerto Rican or Cuban; or people who are illegals (largly Mexican) who are wary about the census being a deportation tool) 8 percent (multi-race) I left Asian out, because I don't believe Painesville has much of a population there. If you are a fan of diversity, though, be proud that Painesville's numbers add up to over 100 percent. That's something that only diverse cities have to worry about. In Ohio, only Lorain (and Cleveland to a lesser exent) have had numbers like that. But look at some of the cities in the NYC or LA metros. I've seen some that added up to close to 150 percent!

Another thing that is eye-opening is the 26.4 percent gain Columbus experienced in its black population. For a city that already had a sizable population, that type of increase is phenominal. For example, Columbus' hispanic population incresed, by 154 percent, but in 2000 that hispanic population wasn't large. So it's not that huge of an accomplishment. Parma, for example, had a 120 percent increase. But considering Columbus already had a black population of 175,000, shooting up to 220,000 (a 46,000 increase, making it the blackest city in the state in sheer numbers) is amazing. I imagine, partly from people I know who are moving down there, a significant amount of black losses in Cleveland (and probably Cinncinnati) aren't leaving the state, but relocating to Central Ohio. It seems to be Ohio's black hotspot. Whether it's actually true or not, the overriding thought in the black community (at least in Northeast Ohio) seems to be is that Columbus is the place to be. I hear it all the time. P.S. I know the Somali population has a large part in that growth as well, but can't be the sole reason for that increase.

Not that it's any big revelation, but warned that big losses were coming to Cleveland and Cincinnati, just by going off of numbers of other "similiar" cities that had been released before Ohio. However, I will look at the bright side of Cleveland and Cincinnati. Both are hemorraging white population, and black population to a lesser degree (Cleveland greater). Cleveland is down 25.5 percent of its white population, and 13.2 percent of its black population since the last census. Cincinnati is down 17.9 percent of white, and 4.4 percent of black population. But both are showing gains in other categories. Cleveland, for example, saw an increase of 13.8 percent in Latino population. That doesn't sound like a lot compared nationally, but considering Cleveland's Mexican population is essentially non-existent, that is a bright spot. If Cleveland could ever attract Mexicans, the "Hispanic" population could blow up. I actually thought Cleveland would see a decrease in this category. Instead the city reached double-digits, percentage wise. Cincinnati's Hispanic population is up 96.4 percent .... though still a paltry 2.8 percent for a city of its size, so it wasn't that great of an achievement. Baby steps. The Asian populations were also up in both. Cincinnati's up 6.8 percent, while Cleveland's was up 13.7 percent. Both are only 1.8 percent overall, but again, baby steps. At least the hispanic and Asian populations, nationally the fastest growing, are also growing in both cities. It's a silver lining, but if both cities saw a decrease in those populations, it really would be dire.

Chicago's decline I believe is mostly due to the demolition of the projects, mainly large high density high rise buildings on the south side. I think the vast majority of outmigration has to do with this and the other neighborhoods that are declining are doing so at a much slower rate. It would be nicer if there was a more detailed map to illustrate this theory. I'm no expert on Chicago, but is what you are saying are the demolition of Taylor Homes, Cabrini-Green, etc., forced people into other shaky, but somewhat working class neighborhoods? Which in turn, when the former residents of those projects moved into those neighborhoods, the people who could afford to, moved out, thus causing the major decreases that Chicago experienced? If so, I can see that. But those former residents, conceiveably, were still moving within city limits. And, aren't those projects that were torn down (Taylor, Cabrini-Green) redeveloped ... ala Longwood and Valleyview in Cleveland? So wouldn't that redevelopment have offset some of the out migration? IDK for sure, but Chicago's numbers (and St. Louis') are a bad sign for Cleveland. Both cities not only lost a large percentage of population, but lost a large percent of the population projected in the 05-09 survey, which should've taken into account the demolition and reconstruction of some of the housing projects. For example, if Cleveland comes in 35,000 less than projections, like St. Louis did, it would be teetering on the 400,000 mark. That would be more like a 70,000-plus total population loss since 2000. I've always thought Cleveland would come in around 430,000-440,000, but the numbers so far have me less optimistic.

MSAs, I believe, are comprised of areas that have significant interaction and commutes. There are specific standards to be counted as one MSA, and Cleveland/Akron have not met those standards, so they remain separate. I don't know how those standards are not met, especially in the last 10 years. Some of "Cleveland's" strongest growth has been in the Akron MSA (Twinsburg, Macedonia, Richfield, Aurora, Streetsboro, Hudson, etc.), while some of "Akron's" strongest growth has been in the Cleveland MSA (Wadsworth, Medina). And Akron/Canton not being a combined MSA is even more mind boggling. The cities are 20 miles apart and a large percent of the growth of both have been in "UCLA" (Upper Canton, Lower Akron ... Green, Jackson Township, Uniontown, Canal Fulton, North Canton). I never realized how connected Canton and Cleveland were until driving back from down south on I-77 at night. Once you get about five miles south of Canton it is urban for about 15 miles (up to the Akron-Canton Airport). Then there is a one-mile stretch between the Airport and Massillon Road that is dark and looks rural (but you can see the lights ahead where it becomes urban again). Once you hit Massillon Road, it is again urban for another 15 or so miles to Ghent Road in Bath. From there, it is semi-urban for the next 10 or so miles until you hit Independence and get into Cleveland. That's about a 70-mile stretch of highway where 60 of it is noticeably urban. The stretch between south Canton and northwest Akron is even more noticable, about 29 of that 30 mile stretch is urban. It's also not too surprising that the stretch on 1-77 between Ghent and Independence is is less urban considering Cleveland's southern growth has been more down the 71, 271 and Route 8 corridors (some of which is still the Akron MSA anyway).

Remember, though, that Canton isn't a part of either Cleveland or Akron. That would add another 400,000 or so to Cleveland-Akron. That would push "Cleveland" into Minneapolis/Seattle neighborhood.