Brutus_buckeye

Given the fact that the Crew leaving looks imminent, do you think there will be a push to try and get an MLS team In Cleveland someday soon? Cant see it happening if the Crew stays, as I cant see 3 teams in Ohio. If Crew leaves, Cleveland may be a better fit for a second team as it splits the fan base to the corners of Ohio and also given Pittsburgh does not have a team could be good for that corner of the region.

Tourism maybe, but I think Ohio and its cities in general receives far more tourism than people think. Ohio in tourism dollars beats almost all the South except I think Florida and Texas. And all that tourism hasn't translated to growth. Nashville is incorporated into its county the way Indianapolis is, so its city limits are much larger than Columbus or any Ohio city. Yet it had less than 3,000 people move there last year. For all the supposed building, tourism and national reputation, it's consistently had weak population growth, especially for such a large area. Tourism apparently doesn't translate to quality of life issues that are attractive to real movers. Nashville is clearly being overrated by many. And I agree with you that Nashville is overrated but my point was more to do with perception than reality. Tourism is different there than in Ohio. In Nashville, you will have music stars and other celebs more likely to grab a high rise condo that sits empty 360 days of the year. You don't get that in Columbus. Because of its international appeal, you may get a Saudi Sheik looking for a place to dump capital that is not New York, LA or Miami and may snag a condo there for a while that sits empty. Ultimately, you have a bunch of high end real estate there that is built but empty 99% of the time. You do not have that market in Columbus. I am not saying it is in Nashville much either, but Nashville has greater potential for that then Columbus.

^ The thing about Nashville and It will always have this advantage over Columbus and Cincinnati is that Nashville has a much larger tourism business and also has the high profile music business to give it additional exposure. Attending a number of real estate conferences, Nashville always has a lot more cranes in the ground and developments (especially apartments) than Columbus, Cincy, Indy, etc. and has been that way for 30 years. The one thing that Nashville has and Columbus cant really compete with is that there are a number of people who get 2nd or 3rd homes in Nashville and use it as a trophy property whereas you don't have that in Columbus. It is like the luxury housing market in NYC, LA, San Fran or Miami where luxury investors purchase property and it largely sits vacant most of the time. THis brings adds a few units to the market that otherwise should not be there but more so it brings exposure to a market from an investment front. Given Nashville's position as a music town, you will have this much more than you could have it in Columbus.

Yes, but who is there to fill the void if UC doesn't assume both roles. Same with OSU. At least in Cleveland, you have a high level functioning research university in place already. CSU does not need to assume that role in the market.

Ohio State has always had a much stronger pull in Cleveland and NE Ohio than in Cincinnati. I think part of that is historical. Back when Cleveland was the economic engine of Ohio, kids in Cleveland would go to Columbus for school at OSU. At the time 50-60 years ago, Columbus was just not much of a city and the opportunities and jobs led them to naturally matriculate back to Cleveland/Akron/Canton/YTown. As the economy changed and new opportunities in Columbus opened and old opportunities in Cleveland dried up, people never went back. It did not hurt that OSU was getting many of the same research dollars that Case was attracting back in the 60s and 70s. OSU started attracting the international students like CWRU and played a dual role in Columbus because there was no one else to do this. Same in Cincinnati, there was no one else to handle that role so it took on the dual role. Cleveland was so far ahead with case. It did not need the dual role.

^ Also, keep in mind what the purpose of these schools are. CWRU is to bring in the top graduate students from all over the world to have them do a high level of research and create the next discovery that will drive the economy of the future. It serves as an incubator. Many of the startup biotech companies in Cleveland owe their initial founding to the research done at CWRU. CWRU has about 2-3000 undergrad students and is smaller than John Carroll or Baldwin Wallace. However, CWRU has around 15,000 grad students. that is where it makes its impact, and where most universities make their name. Cleve State has a different mission. It is an undergrad school meant to serve the community by providing an affordable college education to area students. Not everyone is going to be the next top researcher but there is a need to provide a quality education to area students. Cleve State, Akron, Kent State all serve this role for NE Ohio. Their job is to educate students in an affordable manner and provide the catalyst so the best and brightest can move on to pursue their dreams at a top research university like CWRU. Both schools have entirely different missions. Both are important but both are intended to serve different purposes and that is a good thing for the area.

I generally agree but I think CSU does a fair amount of public policy research out of the Levin College. Perhaps it's not as robust as I think. CSU does research, all universities do. It is just that CSU is not strong in the STEM areas which drive the major research dollars. CWRU is the school that brings that to the table in Cleveland. I get the Business Journal in the Youngstown area at work two times a day in my email and that article showed up. It's an interesting read, and it goes to show you just how bad Southern Ohio is really doing. Hopefully there is a slowdown with the more official numbers in the 2020 Census. Aren't the fastest growing areas in Cincinnati on the Kentucky side? In SOuthern Ohio, Warren County is the 2nd fastest growing county behind Delaware in the state. Clermont and Butler have solid growth too (not like Warren) . In Kentucky, Boone is the growth engine for the state because of the Airport. So while the other counties in the area grow meagerly, Boone and Warren are growing rapidly.

Cleve State will not ever serve that purpose, at least not like UC and OSU do. Cleve State was a city college, just like NKU is in Cincy. The high level research is done at Case and Case pretty much takes those grants and money. I don't think it wants to compete with CSU for the same funding. I know Case is private, but research grants don't discriminate.

I was up in Cleveland years ago and it just seemed like people from NE Ohio, more Akron/Canton/Youngstown were going to Columbus to seek more opportunity. You did not see as many people from Cincinnati matriculate to Columbus as you saw people in the NE Ohio area and even Toledo move that direction.

In the last 20 years, it just seems like Cincy and Columbus have been carrying Ohio

I don't necessarily disagree with you per se. but my main point is (and I don't know where you live) but chances are you are either Downtown and the Banks Or you are in OTR. It is not overly efficient to ride the Streetcar from 5th or 6th Street to the Banks or Smale Park, but yes it would work for going there from OTR and vice versa. You point out how you use it for short trips which is great, as I mention, the key is creating destinations or opportunities for people to want to use it more. For example, the downtown Kroger will be a great asset. It is something people will use regularly and more importantly, allows people the ability to travel closer to home with their grocery bags without having to walk or drive. You mentioned the hardware store as another example. Any destination like this helps;

Right now we only ride the streetcar when I have my kids downtown and they want to ride the trolly around to Washington Park, etc. When I am downtown and want to go from Ft. Sq to the Stadiums or to Washington Park, it is much easier and enjoyable to walk it. This is the biggest shortfall of the Streetcar. The red light fix will take care of some of the problem, but running in traffic on the downtown streets does not really help with a speedy commute process. THe only issue I have about the resident issue is what is the critical mass to make it worth commuting from and using during the week. I don't think you can ever really get there for 2 key reasons. 1) most of OTR is not on the streetcar line or even 1 block away. Walking more than a block or so only to wait 10 minutes to go downtown, is not any more efficient than just walking from the start. 2) it is assumed that everyone in OTR along the line works downtown and will commute downtown. While downtown is on the rise, the jobs there are not significantly more than what where there 20 years ago. Plus, as with the first point, not all of those downtown jobs are on the Streetcar line. If I worked in say 4th and Vine tower or 84.51, I don't know if my first thought would be the streetcar. In addition, there are plenty of people who live on the line who may work in Uptown or Blue Ash or NKY, which having the Streetcar does them little good for commuting during the week. That was a key flaw in thinking of it as a residential transportation modal.

If making it free can generate more revenue and sufficiently increase ridership (not just add a few new riders) then I am all for it. The biggest flaw with the streetcar is that it does not go to where people need to go in a fast enough manner. It is not necessarily a good transportation model. I think part of the vision was that all the people who live in OTR and work downtown would use it to commute to work, which has proven false and also was not realistic from the start. What it does well is circulate to the attractions on the track but it misses certain key attractions like the Casino and Convention Center and also the majority of hotels (only really touches AC, 21C, and Westin. Downtown being so compact also does not play well to using the streetcar. With some of the Breweries and growth of OTR as an entertainment area, Music Hall, Rhinegeist, Washington Park, people now have a reason to take it North. The soccer stadium will help this too. Any expansion should not be to bring it to uptown, we need other regional transportation plans for that. It should be to add spurs to the convention center & Casino and maybe even Museum Center. Have it touch the key attractions in the area, that is why people will take it. Heck imagine the city or Museum Center being able to generate additional revenue by selling parking for Reds or Bengals games. They cant do this now but with the Streetcar extension that is feasible.

OH, PA, MI and NY are very similar states in that they developed with a couple large and many mid-sized "factory cities" around them as opposed to one large regional hub like many other states (often centered around the capital). These states relied less on the capital because everything was pretty self inclusive as they often developed along shipping passages and waterways and as the Industrial Revolution heated up, along smaller waterways for power and rail lines.

MSP has also struggled a bit too. Part of it is that they developed a strong fiscally conservative base with their finances and companies. ALso, look at their companies and the sectors they compete in. The vast majority base their growth in the agri-business side of things. MSP is essentially the capital of agribusiness in the US and developed that well. And the thing about Agribusiness is that it was a sector that was very recession resistant because people still need to eat. Look at some of their large companies and their origins (not so much Fortune 500) but large businesses with a huge MSP presence. 3M was an industrial/mining company General Mills - again milling Pilsbury - grain and milling Cargill - grain - agribusiness Target - Dry goods Burlington Northern RR (now gone) - moving agribusiness from farms to cities Wells Fargo and US Bank - original forms started there to serve growing agribusiness These companies were the catalyst that allowed the other businesses like Medtronic and higher tech companies to thrive in the area as the economy evolved. Also, as the capital of the North, people who don't go to Chicago from that part of the Midwest go to the twin cities. It is a mesh of people from Iowa, Wisconsin, ND, SD, MO, IL, and NE who relocate there for opportunity and are not afraid of cold Midwestern winters. They go there because outside of Chicago, there really was nowhere else in the region. NOw, I think MSP is getting hurt a bit now that Denver has started flexing its muscles and people who may have otherwise ended up there are going to Denver.

I could not find Kentucky's companies, but I always thought Ashland was on the list in years past. Are they still part of it? I thought they spun Valvoline off a few years back and it may have removed them from the list. Otherwise, we would want to include them in Cincinnati's list.

It's actually in Torrance, CA. Toyota is now in Dallas after moving from near the Cincinnati airport. Nissan's North American headquarters is near Nashville. The car industry is slowly but surely shifting south and west away from Ohio. Toyota moved to Dallas from CA which was their North American HQ. Erlanger was the manufacturing HQ which was always under the umbrella of the CA office. Those jobs consolidated in Dallas under one roof after they moved the full corporate functions from CA to TX. The reason for the move to TX was that they were tired of the high taxes in CA. Erlanger was just collateral damage as it made sense to move everything under one roof in Texas. If they stayed in CA the Erlanger jobs would still exist.

Because I think the goal is to maximize floor space and if you carve out a retail space such as you would in a parking garage scenario, you lose precious exhibitor space.

^ Go big like the Atlanta Westin. Make it a signature tower for the city. Give a little bit of height to that part of downtown.

I would rather have a soulless suburb any day over a blighted ghetto.

https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/politics-extra/2018/05/16/fc-cincinnati-future-growth-jeopardy-after-soccer-stadium-deal/612546002/ This is a great reason why the madness needs to stop. Half the time the people against it don't really have a stake other than sucking money off the individuals who will truly benefit from the development. They harm the neighborhood in the long run. When you let the Josh Spring's have a say in development, don't complain why the urban core declines and becomes a ghetto.

It is not just about FCC, it is about Children's too. Look at Nashville, See how easy things came together for them with this deal. It helps speak to business leaders that things can get done quickly there. It encourages development instead of throwing up roadblocks.

Because it is a bad precedent to development in other parts of the city. If you have to be extorted by groups who do not have a specific property interest dictate terms to a willing buyer and seller, you are not very easy to do business with. It makes it much easier to just develop a cornfield

That is comparing apples to oranges. Does P&G locate here because of convention business or does Gen Mills go to Minneapolis because of the same convention business. Of course not. They go to where local talent is. They go to where there is a concentration in that industry. But convention business helps attract secondary jobs and business. It offers employment to a trailing spouse or an opportunity to continue to develop a passion business like a café or art studio. It builds quality of life which in turn continues to attract talent. NOLA and Vegas are much bigger tourism markets. But so are Minneapolis and Indy. I would not call these towns anything exciting from a tourist standpoint. Heck, Minneapolis is only really inhabitable 3 months out of the year, yet people make a go there. I don't think people expect Cincy to play in the same field as NOLA or Vegas but they certainly should be in the game every time with Columbus, Nashville, Indy, Cleveland, Minneapolis, Charlotte and even Chicago.

^ and also remember that 100% of the money spent by conventioneers is out of down money that builds the wealth of a region instead of money that is recirculated in town.