Brutus_buckeye

Because deep down, most people realize that this is a pretty good deal compared to most stadium deals around the country. This is a much better deal for the tax payers than Nashville has and Portune is too stupid for his own good sometimes.

New ramp off the lateral behind SAMs.

^ You seem to look at it as a zero sum gain. Yes, the majority of money spent will be by locals but there is always a contingent from out of town that will travel in for a game. You may not fill 3 new hotels every night but it will sell room nights. You will get people from Lex, Columbus and other areas outside Cincy that will come in to visit or it gives them another option to stay another night (Go to a Reds game today and soccer tomorrow) Even if the $45 million per year is closer to 20-25 million it is still pretty good

^ Ridership and occupancy projections. those were what was being cited. Obviously the economic development along the line was significant.

^ it is not that the streetcar gets a pass. It is the fact that when asked for the numbers on the stadium, many of those seem people championed the rosy numbers of the streetcar. The streetcar has numbers now which are not very rosy nor near the projections. That does not mean the streetcar is a failure. Some of these numbers are pointless because they are all puffed up anyway. You can get numbers on the stadium too but they will be beyond rosy projections that will fall short of expectations. That is how the game works. That is not to say that this is not a good investment, it is.

This is where I'm going to say, show me the economic study. When the city gave tax breaks to GE, they had to justify it with actual detailed math. "GE will create (a) new jobs, resulting in $(b) additional salary within the city. Therefore the city will give $© work of tax breaks to GE, resulting in $(b-c) worth of additional tax revenue coming into the city." Let's stop glossing over the details. How many additional hotel room nights will be generated as a result of the new stadium? How much additional spending will be created at area bars and restaurants. Hire some economists and do a study. 1) it is common sense that an anchor development like this will spur additional development. 2) You can hire an economist to make any rosy projections you want which will no way be accurate. Look at the streetcar numbers for example of this. Point is, you have something like this which is going to be privately funded outside of infrastructure, how is that any different than any other capital expenditure.

Cincy513[/member] I am not an expert on European soccer so I wanted to err on the high side. Ultimately, my point is that smaller is more appropriate from a revenue generation perspective and efficiency. 100k stadiums play to one time or short term events. Think concerts, football, Bowl games, political or religious revivals. --- If the Reds or Tribe played 3-4 times a year, they would fill 100k stadium too. Over 81 games they obviously cant draw those numbers. Same principle with soccer.

I'm shocked that so many FCC fans keep saying "but we get a new stadium for only $75 million of public money!" without making an economic case for how this investment will result in a positive ROI for the city and county. It is not $75 million for a new stadium. It is $0 for the stadium. THe county is investing the money for better roads for residents in the community, the county is investing the money to build parking garages that will generate revenue for the city. The money is going to encourage additional development and payroll taxes in the area from hotels and restaurants and potentially other office development that chooses to go to Oakley. The money is not going to a stadium. THe stadium is the result of the money.

I see both sides. I would prefer Newport over Oakley, but Oakley has the infrastructure that Newport does not have. People can walk from Madtree to the stadium and some of the other bars in the area. Newport does not have this yet. You would essentially have a stadium with nothing walkable in the area. However the boat brigade would be a cool thing.

Right? The money for infrastructure could make Oakley Station a good urban development. Think big like Wrigleyville. It's supported by the Oakley CC and Oakley businesses. It's money that is just sitting there not used for anything. US Bank and Millenium Hotel are non-starts owned by a foreign company who have no interest in doing anything to help. I doubt $75M is enough for a convention center expansion. The commissioners have one shot to put Cincinnati on an international map with the global sport loved by young millennial Cincinnatians (who are the future) with a infrastructure plan that will help more than just FCC. It's a no brainer. Unfortunately, I don't think it will pass. The fact the commissioners and others are still talking about PBS shows how uniformed people seem to be. It should be a slam dunk yes. It wont be a good urban development. From what Ive heard a 1,000 car garage is planned for a 21,000 seat stadium. My guess is the difference will most likely be made up in surface parking. The Banks is our regions best attempt at marrying stadiums and urbanism, two things with needs that are fundamentally at odds. Its going into its second decade now, its only half complete and the parking garage platform infrastructure is incredibly costly to build out. Bars and restaurants struggle for business during slow days of the week. It wont break my heart if they build it in Oakley, but it wouldnt be anything Ill get excited about. Two further questions Why is MLS not anticipating huge growth in stadium crowds? It seems like a 21,000 seat stadium could be obsolete the minute they build it. The infrastructure money their asking for is half the cost of the streetcar, Yet a decision will be made in two days as aoppposed to seven years and two ballot measures. If you think about it, this size (maybe 35k) is a reasonable crowd for games all over. In Europe, their stadiums sit around 45-50k for most of their leagues (yes some are more). If you look at the sporting marketplace, the Reds in good years average about 25-30k per game. While soccer plays less frequently than the Reds, they play a lot more frequent than the Bengals where 8 home games are more events. Even if you could draw more fans a game in many cases, you still want to tap it at 25k for a while until demand grows so much that expansion is not an option. It is a lot easier to grow revenue by raising ticket prices than putting more seats in the stands.

THis is a good deal. The county would be stupid to pass on this. What are we paying $75 million for. Better roads in Oakley and Pleasant Ridge (which need upgrades anyway) some parking structures in an area that is redeveloping and would allow it to become an even denser neighborhood and spur additional development in the area down the line. It will go to help bus service (think bus hub in the area) it will go toward neighborhood development which is ultimately what the county's job is. How many other developments of this size (which often would cost more taxpayer money) would generate the amount of people to develop additional businesses, residential and hotels in the area? I cant think of any. Yes it is not the west end, but it is also not Mapre which is an old brownfield in an the fairgrounds area with little residential or commercial development around and not really a very conducive area to create that feel. Oakley already has that.

No it just gives them the excuse to replay the whole game in 25 years. Except if this stadium is privately owned it will have a longer shelf life. The big difference is if the sport takes off and becomes as big as the NFL, they will then want a bigger stadium. By then the Bengals will be gone and they can take over PBS I guess.

what did Jax and Car have that the Browns did not?

^Arnolds?

Not quite. I knew him as an acquaintance many years ago. Always thought he was completely full of himself and a giant A$$. I may not agree with his politics, that is true, but I also do not think much of him as a person. Contrast that with Yvette Simpson, while I do not necessarily agree with her politically on many things, I think she is a heck of a good person and truly cares about more than herself

Skilled trades is a very good profession. There are plumbers, welders and electricians that earn consistently more per year and over their lifetime than many masters degree candidates including teachers, college administrative staff and even tenured PHD professors. The big drawback to many of these positions is that they are labor intensive and can take a toll on the body as you age. In addition, you often do not have the flexibility you would otherwise have in other white collar professions

^ it is a shame that a single dorm room is what will keep kids in college now a days. Living in the dorm and having a roommate is a fun and enriching experience. I am afraid that all this isolationism will really harm kids abilities to connect to others on a social and societal level going forward. But to the business reason. I think it is also a combination of housing as both a control issue and profit center. As someone who has college property, the universities used to rely heavily on off campus landlords to provide housing for students. Now, they see this as a profit center and also they see it as a way to keep control on the students. They don't have control if an off campus house hangs an offensive sheet out their window or if they have a keg party on the weekend or dress in offensive costumes. Enticing and cajoling the students back on campus provides more opportunities for the school to police the student and control their behaviors, which is not necessarily good either.

I am coming around to Oakley some. While I prefer Newport, there is better infrastructure in Oakley with the bars and character and will have the closest feel to Nippert from the beginning as opposed to Newport which would take time to develop

^ I think there are 2 schools of thought on adjuncts. Personally, I have always thought of them as professionals with a day job who explore their passion by teaching a class or two at night or during the day if their schedule works. The pay sucks but it is more of a labor of love and the money is less important to them. Then there are the professional adjuncts who cobble together 3-4 classes a semester, between 2-3 colleges in a city and use it to make ends meet. That is fine to if that is what makes you happy. There is no wrong way to do it. I have a few friends that do this. Their situations help them do this because they have a spouse with a job with benefits. So ultimately, there is no wrong way to go about it. People find their own way to make it work for them.

^ Depends what the Adjuncts degree is. Some adjuncts are very well paid by their real job and then just teach a class or two on the side. Other adjuncts try and cobble together piecemeal college work in low paying fields and would rather settle for a low paying part time college professor job as opposed to a real job.

Just knowing Seelbach from many years ago, it is par for the course with him. I have always found him to be completely full of himself and a jerk. I don't say this lightly around people I have met face to face

It is akin to Trump going after the gold star family. There is nothing to gain from spiking the football here. A dignified person does not need to respond especially because he won. Just shows pettiness and just being a jerk (which he is). The sad thing about Seelbach is that he stirs things up and whenever people attempt to fight back against him, he runs back behind his shield and claims he is a victim. He has been playing this card for over 20 years now.

It is good business to pull kids from out of state to their schools. South Carolina and Clemson are notorious for hitting Ohio Schools because their students vacation down in Hilton Head and other areas down there. These schools have such a poor product of students in their own states they need to reach outside the state to places like Ohio to attract talent. The kids find it appealing because they are closer to the beach and the weather is warmer. It is a nice selling point for these schools. Most 17 year olds don't really care what the programs are and to be honest it does not matter too much for undergrad anyway. These schools puff their programs up to make it seem more important to the average HS kids. They also can give these out of state kids a Scholarship and still come out way ahead because they are still paying above the in state rate with the scholarship. It is a shell game.

I agree that Newport would be better then Oakley but you're right it's clear the ownership groups wants to build in Cincy. Why do you think Oakley would want a new stadium in 15 years? Wherever they build they're now going to spend over 300 million on this stadium. You do some normal upkeep and upgrades on it over the years and this stadium is going to last a long time. Just look at Great American Ballpark. It's been opened 15 years and still seems relatively new because the Castellini's have been keeping it updated over the years. I think in 15 years there will be a push to get more to the city center and downtown. The nice thing about Oakely though is that it is walkable. Berding came out the other week and pretty much said the only reason why Ovation has not been finalized is that the ownership group is from Ohio and they want to exhaust every last effort to keep it in Ohio first and foremost.

Newport is a much better choice. Keep it downtown. If you cant do OTR, go to Ovation. Oakley will be a horrible choice and they will want a new stadium in 15 years. Problem is that the Lindners don't want anything to do with Kentucky