YO to the CLE

Very good! The first signs that development might soon start to move to the other side of 90. Baby steps...

There are a certain select few who consistently paint such a negative picture of our regional economy (both population wise and jobs wise), and put other metros on such a high pedestal. I am actually more optimistic now than ever. A LOT of people are retiring in NEO, and the fact of the matter is, they're going to move to Florida. They've had their hearts set on that since they started working. So what's going to happen, or should I say what is already happening is that this creates a lot of job opportunities for the younger generations to back fill those jobs. The negative here is that the growth is more of a replacement of the older workers as opposed to new job creation. I agree that is a bad thing; however, the upside is that these newcomers are going to increasingly settle in the city. Cleveland is basically going to mirror Pitt metro. Good concentration of high skilled jobs in and around the core, redeveloping urban neighborhoods, rapid decline in inner ring post war suburbs, and an overall economically stagnant outer metro (cities like Lorain, Y-town, Painesville, etc.). I hate the rhetoric of Detroit is doing so much better. They are not, and as the economy improves, only so many empty buildings will be rehabbed in their downtown. Eventually people are going to seek the Tremonts and Ohio Cities of Detroit which are virtually non existent. So as their economy begins to diversify like Pitt and CLE, the younger generation who do not relocate into the immediate downtown will have two choices, build new in an urban prairie with no amenities whatsoever or continue to settle in Ann Arbor, Royal Oak, Grosse Point, etc. It's not at all trying to paint a negative image, at least not on my part. I am one of the biggest supporters of NEO/Ohio on these type of forums. I am getting tired of watching Cleveland get passed up nationally and regionally. It's unacceptable, especially for what the region has to offer. It's called being a realist. The utopian view that Cleveland has few problems is not doing the city any justice. So my optimism is not nearly as high, forgive me. When I have to travel and see how other areas are doing, it gets even more frustrating. Cleveland is far behind. The Cleveland boosterism gets old, and this is coming from a big Cleveland booster. Being from Youngstown, I was a huge supporter of Cleveland, and still am to this day. I was a bigger fan of Cleveland than Pittsburgh, and still am to this day. I believe NEO is a far more attractive area to live than Western PA, and it's not nearly as backwards. But Pittsburgh is a far different city than Cleveland, and much healthier city. Go to Youngstown, the majority of the younger population prefers Pittsburgh, especially southern Mahoning and Columbiana Counties. It's going to take Cleveland a lot longer to comeback than Pittsburgh has. Pittsburgh's surrounding areas suffered the brunt of its economic collapse, whereas Cleveland was all in the city. The built environment is different, and so is the economics. Pittsburgh had Duquesne and PITT, Cleveland doesn't have that caliber of an institution to bring in tech companies. Case Western is a wonderful research university, but Pittsburgh has more, and they turned to their universities to turn the economy around. If Cleveland was truly in Pittsburgh's position of, well it's really just the old people retiring and we aren't seeing enough births or in-migration to offset the loses I would think Cleveland was pretty stable, but that's not the case. Cleveland is losing its educated workforce in large numbers. Facts do not lie. Again, economics at play. And if your comments are directed at me as far as Detroit goes, maybe I should come on here more often. There's not a lot of development news in Cleveland, so I do not pay too close attention to what is happening on this forum, but I have made those suggestions about Detroit before. Let's be real, Cleveland only has a small land area of the Tremonts and Ohio Citys, while huge swaths of Cleveland are doing terrible. A little background, I work closely with land banks throughout NEO, and the Ohio land banks have held their annual conference in Cleveland the last two years. In 2015 I went on a Slavic Village tour to check out how new plexiglass was being introduced to make homes look more attractive to rehabbers, and virtually impossible to break into. I sat next to a woman who worked heavily on neighborhood activities in SV. I asked her what she thought about the Opportunity Corridor and the impacts it may have on SV. She could not stop talking about the investment in Downtown and Ohio City and how so much of the rest of the city was forgotten about. Just like Detroit, only a few areas are being invested in. Downtown Detroit today is doing far more than downtown Cleveland, it's not even close. Do I think Detroit is a healthier city than Cleveland? No. Detroit is making huge progress though. And don't count Detroit out. The rebound is spreading much further than downtown into the Midtown area, so people are moving beyond those empty buildings downtown. And Detroit has some beautiful residential areas as well. On the other hand, Metro Detroit is healthier than Metro Cleveland. The two are always paired up next to each other, especially in news days like today when census numbers come out. "God forbid if you're like Detroit or Cleveland." Metro Detroit is growing. Metro Cleveland is not. That speaks volumes in itself. Cleveland is still heavily invested in manufacturing, so I don't see how Cleveland is even close to diversifying its economy like Pittsburgh. Cleveland is more like Detroit than Pittsburgh in economic recovery, minus the fact that Detroit has gained a far larger percentage of its jobs in the last year than Cleveland. It's not about being negative on Cleveland. It's about being tired of watching Cleveland accept the bare minimum and think things are going to move forward. Instead of just focusing on small areas of the city, move out and help areas with potential. It's there, but they're not getting the attention they deserve. Collinwood anyone? Don't tell me how I am suppose to respond about Cleveland. I have loved the city since I was a little kid looking down on Public Square from my aunt's office window in the 55 building. I have supported Cleveland far more than Pittsburgh, a city I grew up closer to. I see Cleveland's potential, and I know great things can happen, but I am so tired of a mediocre attitude from an economic development standpoint. If Cleveland wants its population to grow again, there's a lot more needed than just investing in Downtown, OC, and Tremont. I agree with many of these points, and I apologize for any perceived personal attacks. I guess I am just of the mind set that we are moving in the right direction. Sure the government in this region doesn't always make smart decisions, but I think private forces are having more of an impact anyway. I think we are trying. Some areas harder than others, but I do think everyone is trying to move the region forward. I am not rosy-eyed at all. The east side is mostly a mess. I get angry every time I drive down Broadway, St Clair, and Buckeye and see the potential. What frustrates me more than the population and job loss stories is the stigma that East side development has to overcome. The east side has far more interesting building stock than the west side, but we focus everything on the east side. I agree that Collinwood continues to be overshadowed and could be one of the best neighborhoods in the city, but again, it's that stigma... Stigma in general is what is holding this region back more than our policy makers. I'll take a personal shot at my millennial generation. We (not all) make decisions based on "coolness" which is ridiculous but sadly true. Companies our constantly seeking talent pools and cluster around areas where more college educated are moving to. The problem is, Cleveland still does not have a great reputation across the nation. It's getting better but not quite there. Consequently, we are not "cool" so it makes it that much harder to attract talent and then the companies that follow. It's a stupid formula but still.

There are a certain select few who consistently paint such a negative picture of our regional economy (both population wise and jobs wise), and put other metros on such a high pedestal. I am actually more optimistic now than ever. A LOT of people are retiring in NEO, and the fact of the matter is, they're going to move to Florida. They've had their hearts set on that since they started working. So what's going to happen, or should I say what is already happening is that this creates a lot of job opportunities for the younger generations to back fill those jobs. The negative here is that the growth is more of a replacement of the older workers as opposed to new job creation. I agree that is a bad thing; however, the upside is that these newcomers are going to increasingly settle in the city. Cleveland is basically going to mirror Pitt metro. Good concentration of high skilled jobs in and around the core, redeveloping urban neighborhoods, rapid decline in inner ring post war suburbs, and an overall economically stagnant outer metro (cities like Lorain, Y-town, Painesville, etc.). I hate the rhetoric of Detroit is doing so much better. They are not, and as the economy improves, only so many empty buildings will be rehabbed in their downtown. Eventually people are going to seek the Tremonts and Ohio Cities of Detroit which are virtually non existent. So as their economy begins to diversify like Pitt and CLE, the younger generation who do not relocate into the immediate downtown will have two choices, build new in an urban prairie with no amenities whatsoever or continue to settle in Ann Arbor, Royal Oak, Grosse Point, etc.

Looking at what's on that block currently, I would not oppose any demolition whatsoever. The only building worth saving is the two story Italianate next to Urban Community School, but that is not even in the block in question.

These are both awesome! I would say from an infill standpoint, I am most impressed with what I am seeing in Hingetown and Tremont/Duck Island. Lots of nice stuff going up. Now if we can just get Brickman's project going, that would really be a boost...

There are actually a couple of commercial spaces in the development. They left a portion of the warehouse under the big water tower standing and are actively leasing the space out. It's not visible from Breakwater, but it fronts the new Father Caruso. They are also going to uplight the water tower which will be really cool

What does that mean? Are they moving out or staying put? And will the new building at least be in the city?

If anything, I think this will make the problem of riding dirt bikes, etc even more of a problem. I remember hearing about this when it was first proposed thinking it was the biggest joke, but it really not happening. Here we are today and it's actually approved. I don't post here a lot any more because there's just nothing exciting happening development wise. Cleveland has become the biggest joke when it comes to urban development. Detroit is booming, and Cleveland is faltering. It's not about the lack of the new big proposals starting (that's not just a Cleveland thing), but how little activity is happening around the city, and most of the city is decaying to the point where it will not come back. It's really sad. I think there was a lot of hope last year just because there seemed to be momentum. But that momentum has come to a complete standstill, and Cleveland's government does absolutely nothing to improve the city or its quality of life. But oh wait, there's a dirt bike park coming! That's progress. Meanwhile, Cleveland remains America's poorest city, absolutely no job growth, and RTA is about to shut down completely in 5-10 years with the way things are going. I hate to be negative because I am a huge fan of the city, but Cleveland really had a chance to go somewhere just a few years ago, and now it seems like one of, if not the only, major city in the country not making an impressive comeback. Most of this falls completely on the leadership of Cleveland. I couldn't disagree more. We are actually in a great position at the moment and our real estate market is booming. (At least on the west side). We have droves of people looking to OWN in the city for the first time in a long time. Not just tremont. We are looking at vast areas of investment on the west side and pockets of the east side. Sorry the big glitzy projects have kind of dwindled at the moment but how many times on this very board have we preached about small incremental projects filling in the gaps as the way to truly improve the situation in cleveland. Detroit is where we were about 10 years ago. At the start of a big loft apt boom to fill up the empty buildings. Outside of downtown it's a mess. My company manages properties up there, and I've never seen such blight before. Don't eat me wrong, I love the city, but we are wayyyyyyu better off. I don't get the Cleveland.com negativity on this board

Yes please to the Superior Ave route! The ripple effects of improving the streetscape of this portion of road would be well worth the investment. It is a highly used bike route from the West Side The road needs to be resurfaced badly anyway It would drastically improve the pedestrian and cyclist experience at two of the most car dominated intersections downtown (9th and Superior, 6th and superior). These intersections are awful and kill any connectivity between Gateway and Warehouse While we're at it, let's continue it down Superior on the other side of the square all the way out to CSU

Lol. Weren't we one of the best for jobs like 4 months ago?

My secret wish is that with the catholic center building a new addition, maybe they can lease their storefronts along Lorain out to market rate businesses as the development pushes west. I know that's not their business model, but might be a lucrative money maker. Props to them for taking such great care of their buildings, but I'd rather see those spaces put to active use promoting walkability

We have a low threshold in this city for what constitutes "busy." And if your view had the north half of the square as your "front yard" rather than the busier southern half, you might feel differently. Opinions aside, I think we can agree that even on 10 degree days, the transit riders will keep the square populated. I agree on both points here. I will give you that the North side is definitely less busy than the South Side. And yes, busy to Clevelanders is different than busy to much larger cities. But we need to encourage more visitors to continue to come to the square, and transit is a huge component of that. let the buses through!

KJP, sorry but I'm gonna directly call you out as well as the others who say that public square is desolate...I live on public square. It is far from desolate. You pull photos from 10 degree January days to use as reference but that is so biased it's not even funny. It's been packed. People loved the lights, love the skating rink, love the Cafè. You jus do not live downtown so I'm sorry, but you are completely wrong. For he record, I want buses to be able to go through the square, but I'm just upset at the negativity on this site as of late. This isn't Cleveland.com people. What the hell is going on here?!

I think you're missing the totality of everything that's being said here in this and other threads. The fact is what MissinOhio just noted -- look at the lack of cranes in our skyline. We're just not building that much in Cleveland compared to other cities. And what we do build here is HEAVILY subsidized if not outright owned by the public-sector. Ehh, I get what you're saying for some cities in the Midwest, but I don't see putting Cleveland at the bottom for development. I travel quite frequently to most Midwest cities for my work, and I can say from experience that outside of Chicago (obvious), Pittsburgh, and Minneapolis, I am not seeing an exorbitant amount of construction like you say. Taking into account development across the whole city, I think we are right up there with Milwaukee, St Louis, Indy, Cincy, Columbus, etc.

We are all quick to jump on developers when a project falls behind schedule, and sometimes, it is a direct result of their ineptitude, but often times, the lenders are just plain stingy. What frustrates me more than anything is that locally, our lenders will finance the construction of $4-$500,000 single family homes on the near westside, but they are scared to death to finance new construction mixed use downtown. And nationally, the lenders who would finance such a project focus mostly the big name cities. It's like we are trapped in the twilight zone even with proven demand. I mean, how high do our rents have to get before they start handing out money? Just very frustrating.

Absolutely fake news!

First off, NRP is based right here in Cleveland, not Texas. Secondly, the whole company is extremely excited for this product. The owner has teamed up with the Cleveland Hustles group to promote the neighborhood and all the good stuff going on to prospective tenants. They deeply care about the success of this project. And finally, I am personally responsible for the maintenance of this property...You should not be worried.

I actually think it's the opposite KJP. I feel like there have been quite a few more projects this year than last. I think the difference is that they are all spread out across the neighborhoods and generally smaller in scale than the grand downtown projects of the past. I don't see this as a bad thing because these homes and townhomes/condos are bringing some serious money and ownership commitment back into the city. I also think that we have come to a point where we are running out of big reno projects downtown. Once these new build proposals eventually take off, the floodgates should open again. Plus, I think our standards have increased too with all of the success of late.

So I was perusing the intraweb this morning and stumbled across this pdf of what is planned for Duck Island. If you look at Zillow and center around the Duck Island neighborhood, you can see that they are basically following this exact plan which is a good thing IMO. I am particularly excited for a "mixed-use" new build shown on the pdf http://www.duckislanddevelopment.com/wp-content/uploads/Duck-Island-Marketing-edis-for-web2.pdf

Good Lord that is amazing! Every time I get depressed from seeing the past destruction of Cleveland's historic fabric, I realize that Cincy had it way worse. This is not meant to be a competitive dig at the city at all. Take it as a compliment. The built environment of Cincy was/still is one of the best outside of New York in the entire country. The downtown/OTR area always gives me a Tribeca/West village feel every time I am there. It's just a shame that the West end and Pendleton lost so much :-(

One of the contractors I am currently working with has informed me that Daves market will be a part of the Link59 project. They are working on a lab buildout for the Ace fixtures building, and have first hand knowledge of the overall plan for the development of which Daves is to be a part of. The Payne Ave location will reportedly remain open.

Interesting rumor I overheard on Friday at a downtown coffee shop from two businessmen at the table next to me. Not sure who they were, but they were discussing the possibility of a whole foods opening up at the site of the former Unique thrift store on Lorain...See the midtown developments thread for another development regarding grocers that I heard this week.

Sign of the times. Same with RAM Electronics. Gone! As cool as Unique Thrift was, If this leads to better design and density for that particular parcel, then I'm all for it

^Are they going to punch some windows into that building? In it's current form, it has absolutely zero interaction with the street.

Awesome! The development push across the Innerbelt is beginning!