OCtoCincy

Wow-- That is HIDEOUS and really disappointing. You'd think they'd put in awnings, and all kinds of new stuff to make it look like a unique storefront. Really disappointing.

^ delta, before all the flights got cut. This is about 90% the fault of the airport. The incentives were a small part of it, but I'd we had the same flights as we did in 2005 Chiquita wouldn't have been so gung-ho about leaving

Just read that Kansas city is considering a parking space tax (surface lots only) as one component to funding their current streetcar plan. Interesting!!! http://www.kansascity.com/2011/11/28/3291363/can-downtown-bear-costs-of-proposed.html

5th street by P&G is WAY too large- it becomes 7 lanes wide! As it's possible/likely that the Taft Theater, now after its major renovation and that it's new manager is the Symphony's MEMI, Inc. (operator of Riverbend), will become much busier (has air conditioning now and can be used during summer, twice as many restrooms, etc) it would be great to add bump outs to 5th and Sycamore. Here is my totally crappy example: The now shrunken lane in front of the Taft entrance could be used for Valet to other local structures/lots since there is no onsite parking for patrons.. It does NOT cut into a lane of traffic, as the lane on the other side of the intersection (behind viewer, on right) is a right turn only lane. __________ And my tie in to bring this back to topic.... By adding the bumpouts the road becomes roughly same width as 3rd and 2nd streets, which are currently 5 lanes across (I know... lanes on 2nd and 3rd are wider than lanes on 5th).

Ugh- These people are idiots. I bet they have no idea how much the county pays into the Freedom Center, that there isn't a market to sell stadiums in Cincinnati and that the streetcar.. well, that's an age old argument that will never change. Seeing that the Banks are considered successful, and we still have people filling the comments on the Enquirer saying how it's a joke and a waste of money reminds me that we will never see people stop complaining about the streetcar.

Happening in Dallas right now: http://www.theparkdallas.org/ Caps over a freeway downtown. To be completed in early 2012.

Yes- RIDICULOUS. I wish council could raise the number of signatures needed to get amendments on the ballot from 10% of the previous years electorate to 15%.

Enquirer comments on newest Banks article have many people calling for Caps on FWW. Considering the difficulty of filling up the retail at the banks (it'll get done, but it's a slow process!) I don't think there will be much demand for developed blocks of retail above FWW. HOWEVER. For starters, they might as well do one-two in the next couple years (depending on Financing) and leave it temporarily as grass or something, with the ability to build upon in future phases.

Last year they said $20 million for moving electric and gas only, while the city had budgeted for $5 million for ALL relocation. http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/print-edition/2010/11/19/cincinnatis-streetcar-utility.html?page=all ___________ And I know all the talk about how it's the utilities responsibility etc. and that's nice in theory, but unfortunately, in our reality the City will definitely spend some money paying for relocation, and obviously people at City Hall are thinking about that too.

MSD was a small part-- About $3 million. But Waterworks, Manholes (of any company, including MSD), duke energy, etc. all have to be moved. Some costs will be paid for by the utility, others by the project and the Duke energy costs were the ones to be primarily disputed. Of course I'm hoping that that is just worst case scenario talk, and that those costs are transferred/aren't as high, and of course, the new grant would be $6 million more than the state funds that were revoked.

^ Great post! Much more organized than my babbling, but similar post. :)

^ I heard from several friends at City Hall that depending on the final costs for Utility relocation (estimated to be between 10 and 30 million beyond the budget) they may only end up having enough money to do the route up to Corryville, but not to the Banks.

^ Nice haha. Also, Can John S or someone very informed confirm with me what the $58 million grant is for? I've heard we will only be doing Fountain Square to Corryville with the money- NOT to the Banks. Is this true? With the third block of the Banks now planned to break ground a year earlier than the deadline, it would be awesome to get the Streetcar down there!!!

^ Your view is incredibly strange Can you elaborate on this? Since you asked, Yes, I'm happy that something is finally happening there, but I'll tell you why I think it's been a disappointment. It has taken way too long to build. At the time of the stadium campaign, the assumption was that it was going to open at about the same time as the stadiums. That's 10 years of potential activity, property tax revenue, and postcard views that were lost. The Freedom Center, which occupies the central site, is underwhelming because it just doesn't attract much traffic. The Banks is surrounded by too much parking, and the football stadium is just too big and empty most of the time. The Banks doesn't interact with the river as well as it could, because it is cut off by a motorway and the navigation aspects of the site make it difficult to establish any riverboat action. A marina which appeared in one of the early renderings never materialized. Some of the beach cities in this country have excellent waterfronts. Look at Virginia Beach, Myrtle Beach, Miami Beach, etc. They are oriented toward the water. Also, the harbour cities of New York, Baltimore, San Francisco, etc., have made excellent use of the waterfront. Cincinnati is a river city, as are Pittsburgh, Memphis, New Orleans, and Louisville. The river cities have all pretty much ignored their rivers, because there just isn't much action there anymore. River traffic is still important, but it's all bulk materials in really big tows that dock at obscure industrial locations. I told someone once that the City of Cincinnati is the biggest inland port city in the United States. He said, "where's the port?" Most of the pleasure boat action in the Cincinnati metro area is near the Little Miami River, at Harbortown, Four Seasons Marina, and others. Yes, there are technical reasons for this, namely the topography was more suited for it in the Little Miami River floodplain. The serpentine wall was designed for small boat docking, but few use it. It would have been nice to see a better connection to the river. The whole thing is of course heavily funded with public money. The untold story is what could have been done with that money. Sure, it's fun to see new things get built, but just look at what we've lost. We have a new baseball stadium, but we lost the Cyclones. We have The Banks, but we lost McAlpins. We have Holy Grail and Johnny Rockets, but we lost the Maisonette. The flip side of subsidized development is that the money has to come from somewhere else, and there is an opportunity cost that is not well publicized. None of the mass transit elements - light rail, the streetcar, inter-city rail - have materialized. Your view of the Banks is incredibly bizarre. You're talking as if it's finished.... As if this is the final outcome. You talk about a crappy riverfront but ignore the Riverfront Park... You say there's not enough traffic etc., but seem to ignore that Phase 1A is about an 1/6 of the full project... If you're talking about the Cincinnati Cyclones... they are still there- I went to a game last week. The Maisonnette closed but now Boca is moving into it's place, and between the maisonnette closing and today about 20-30 other great restaurants of all different kids have opened downtown. And nearly all of the places you talked about have major roadways separating them from the water.... the crazy part is... people walk across the road and visit the beach. You basically presented a major criticism of a project that is now becoming quite a success... and presented no alternative... You complain that the river has been neglected, but then suggest that we should have spent all that money on other parts of the city and not the river... Then you complain that there are too many surface lots... Are you kidding???? The entire area used to ONLY be parking- The surface lots are disappearing constantly and you complain that it's poorly planned and there are too many surface lots!? Ahhhh. Just because the marina hasn't been built yet and is very far off in the plan, doesn't mean it will never happen. It wasn't even drawn in this whole area (it was drawn on the Hilltop Concrete site), there was never a timeline that was missed, etc. I feel that you're making some poorly thought out, simplified criticisms. The main frustration in your thinking is that you're complaining about things in different time periods- some things you complain about are future plans that have yet to happen, so your complaints are temporary and WILL be fixed but not tomorrow- other things you complain about have been around for 10 years (the football stadium) and have no chance of being changed. Sure it's not perfect, is anything ever?? Sure I would love to live in a world where we DONT need that much parking, but aren't you one of the most critical people of the costs of the streetcar?

True- I should have said 3:1 leverage of private funds. Also, I come from the school of thought that if the government spends $27 million that leads to $100 million in jobs, more development, and better infrastructure, even if it takes the government 20 years to get that $27 million back, it's still a good move. Better than when the government spends a trillion dollars buying up value-less mortgage backed securities- I don't think that kind of spending creates jobs :) But back on topic... I perhaps should have used the concept of leveraging private investment, instead of ROI

And in effect, it shows a simplified greater than 3:1 return on investment for the stimulus. $27 million for the parking pedestal led to $75 million in construction, followed of course by revenue and further development with retailers, rent, etc. What I've found so interesting is that they are saying they want to do 300 apartments in one block. Remember, Phase 1 has 300 apartments, in TWO blocks. I think it would be GREAT if they did 300 apartments in one block of development. Any one know what the final height restriction was for residential?? I know there was a lot of back and forth early on. If they were able to build an 7-8 story development for this entire next block (no office building, etc) I'm sure they could get 300 apartments in. (I'll talk about design features later on) Personally- I don't think they need to consider any more office space any time soon. With the potential for 250,000 square feet of office space still in Phase 1, combined with many surface lots around town, and moderately high vacancy at our already existing office towers, I don't think this needs to be a component of the Banks development right now. Perhaps it can be considered again in a phase much further down the line, but not right now. The only major benefit to the Banks that office space provides, is people to eat at the restaurants at lunch on weekdays. but I just don't think office space demand exists right now. I DO hope they do something out of the basic box for retail/commercial. We do NOT need more restaurants or bars in this block. Phase 1 will cover that (there are still more empty locations than full!), and there's the two stand-alone restaurant plots in front of the Freedom Center. And don't forget the Lager House! I hope they bring in a grocery store, I know it's really unlikely but with 600 units within a 2 minute walk, and several thousand downtown and in covington, Either Phase 2 or Phase 2A (whatever the southern block will be called) would be the time to do it!! However, from their talk about soft goods, it's sounds like they are more likely to go after a clothing store (which I think would fail at this point in the game) instead. IF the Doyle group restaurants fail (which I hope they do, since it looks like their locations are already going under across the country) I hope they consider several one-off new, locally owned places. Someone needs to take the Carter/Dawson people to 12th and Vine. Those places are PACKED every night and they are not national chains. I get that the Banks will have a different feel and development style than OTR, of course, but mixing in a few non-chains would be a great idea. In fact, the FIRST thing to open, FIRST thing to expand, and first thing to do REALLY well at the Banks was a local bar!!! Then we wait MONTHS for these out of town management groups to try to do something and some may not even happen. Finally, I hope they build with higher quality and better designs. I've heard it's loud at the Banks and I wonder how the buildings will hold up over time. We all agree they aren't particularly attractive, and I hope that the C/D people are thoughtful enough to go with a building that looks noticeably different. Even giving a feel of a different style. CR Architects has done many varied styles (Architects for phase 1) and I hope that they consider something different for this one!! I don't want replica blocks! These aren't legos! Moral of the story- VERY excited/surprised they hope to break ground in the first half of next year ( I didn't think we'd see movement until closer to the deadline) but I hope that they aren't just looking to make a quick buck and that really begin a long term strategy as more blocks open up, and finally that they consider more local places and not these silly national chains.

^ you will probably be fine. The plan seems to imply it will be a 3-4 story building. But anyone on the 2nd 3rd or 4th floor will have all of their view gone!

^ Correct.

^ What I hated most about that story was talking about how the brick streetscape on 2nd street against Ft. Washington Way was crumbling/sinking "due to the transit center being below" yet they IGNORED the fact that the same brick on 3rd street, with no transit center below, IS ALSO SINKING!!!

From Wikipedia article on River Line: "The River Line is currently exceeding final ridership estimates of 5,500 passengers per day, with an average of 7,350 weekday, 5,550 Saturday, and 3,600 Sunday average passenger trips during FY 2006. As of the fourth quarter of 2007, the daily weekday ridership has grown to an average of 7900 trips.[2] As of the end of 2008, weekday ridership was 9,000, the current capacity of the system.[3]"

^ Correct, by bigger, I meant bigger deal, not larger. The Urban Cincy article someone posted earlier explains an accurate timeline. I-71 opened between 1966. "MLK" between clifton and jefferson had only just been built a few years prior, and connections across to Madison were brand new/not seamless at the opening of I-71. This is why there were no plans to do an interchange at MLK, but instead, were plans to do the interchange at Vicotry Parkway. When Jake said "MLK didn't exist", he correct in several ways. First off, what we call MLK was a mix of several different streets following a similar, yet unconnected path- it was NOT a seamless blvd, etc.

And you might be right- Since those low-rise (3-4 stories) units will actually be condo's/townhomes and not apartments. I'm hoping since they are for sale and not for rent they will be built with higher quality and better design.

^ The Bridge for "MLK" was built, yes-- But the East-West mega-blvd that today we call MLK/Madison did NOT exist. You can even see in the drawings, that the bridge went to two smaller streets- it was not connected all the way across uptown and to the east side like it is today-- It was not a major thoroughfare like it is today until several years later. At the time Victory Parkway was a MUCH bigger street and taft and mcmillan crossed most of uptown towards the east side. Melish was a small road and would not become MLK/Madison for several years.

It's hard to look at- there IS a southbound MLK exit- Basically, you would "exit" for both Taft & MLK about a half mile before you hit MLK, Taft traffic goes under the bridge, while MLK traffic exits to the bridge. Not the clearest drawing, but it's there.

MLKB+EX is the best in my opinion. Why close off the ramps at Taft & McMillan? There is minimal work needed to keep them there/fix them up, and all that would do is overcrowd Madison. With all the added traffic at Madison that would be caused by adding new ramps & closing the other ramps (all traffic from Clifton Heights, Walnut Hills etc would have to drive up to Uptown rather than having it semi-split by keeping both options) I can't imagine how the bike lanes would stay in the plan when the road becomes packed. The loop is by far the worst, and MLKB is good, but why close off those options, just forcing more cars onto reading and up to madison when you could keep both options available for negligible cost increases.