Rustbelter

Thread bump incoming. I'm going to be relocating to Cleveland soon and was hoping to get some insight on apartments from any folks here who may have experiences/recommendations. Originally from NE Ohio and visit often, so I'm pretty up to speed on the lay of the land and various neighborhoods/suburbs. I'll be working downtown. Would rather purchase a place, but given the limited inventory and the headache of trying to purchase while selling in my current city, seems like it makes more sense to rent for a year. So that has led me to doing some research on apartments online, which can be a bit dubious given the amount of fake reviews or lack of reviews at all. Would probably rather be in Ohio City/Tremont/Battery Park, but the nicer apartments in these neighborhoods seem more expensive than what I'm seeing downtown (even when factoring in the added expense of garage parking). Right now I'm looking into the following. Any suggestions? Recommendations? Warnings? Places I'm missing? For downtown apartments I'm looking for something with an attached garage. Also don't want to live someplace that feels completely like a post-college social scene (I'm too old for that vibe). Grosvenor Place in Tremont Residences at the Halle The Creswell The Statler Terminal Tower Apartments 55 Public Square Euclid Grand* Mariners Watch* Edge 32* *These have some less than stellar reviews online giving me apprehensions. Some places like the Intro, Lumen, Beacon are a bit more than I want to pay for the size of apartment that I'm looking for (1,000sf +). Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks!

Having boat docks would be cool, but this "moat" concept is bizarre, blocks off public access, and it seams like it would be very expensive. I think a better configuration would be to build canal slips with condos around them similar to these: https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7279358,12.5816206,3a,75y,92.73h,79.93t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sPVfb6I-lxjxrggK7S7A8NA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.7253144,12.5810488,3a,60y,88.63h,90.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-OnBXj9HU7z-kPj2dGa8kw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Development on that site would certainly be welcome, but that plan looks bizarre to me. What's up with twin highrise building with the moat? And why have a big surface lot in the middle? Tearing down the Harbor Inn and Nautica Lofts (a perfectly good building) is not ideal either. I hope this is reworked.

I must be getting old because I don't understand what this normcore stuff is all about. Is it the new outfit for counterculter types (what we have referred to as hipsters over the last decade)? Or is it a backlash to counterculter? What is involved with normcore aside from dressing like you're straight out of the late 80s? Is there normcore music? Also, not sure I agree with your take on Levis. Tight Levis have been heavily worn by hipsters for a while. There is actually a Carhartt store in Wicker Park in Chicago, and it's sold as a fashion brand in European cities. http://www.carhartt-wip.com/stores/5823 There are lots of hipsters in Logan Square. Just a short time ago Wicker Park was a good blend of hipsters and yuppies, but over the last few years the hipsters have moved en masse to Logan Square. Logan Square is the hottest neighborhood in Chicago now, with tons of new business opening and new construction about to take off. http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2015/10/27/logan-square-permits.php http://chicago.curbed.com/archives/2014/10/28/mapping-milwaukee-avenues-development-boom.php In no time the hipsters will be priced out of Logan Square and take over Avondale. You also see hipsters in Chicago in Ukrainian Village, Humboldt Park, and Pilsen. Wicker Park is pretty much yuppie now with some leftover hipster elements, but is not in the frat bro style of the north side lakefront (the bros have made their inroads though). Was in Brooklyn last summer it it appears there were tons hipsters there, so I don't see much change in the fad for now. Just maybe a differing style http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/2012/11/02/evolution-hipster.jpg http://cdn.pastemagazine.com/www/articles/Evolution-of-a-Hipster_FINAL2015.jpg

we have Fairport :-) http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,27516.0.html OK, missed that thread. No photos of it on the site gallery though.

Fairport Harbor

My impression of Boston is that is has a lot of bro/frat types similar to Chicago's North Side. I also think in has a lot of Irish/Italian meathead types that are kind of like a Boston version of a guido (Chicago does not really have this). I don't get the impression that Boston is very hipster, except for some culture that goes along with the the MIT & Harvard nerd culture.

I would put a new red line stop at W. 85th & Franklin. The industrial areas around it along Madison and Detroit could be developed as TOD residential/mixed use. This station would be in walking distance to two commercial streets, and would also help revitalize the sketchy area that currently exists between Gordon Square and Edgewater/Lakewood.

Yeah, looks like a courtyard concept. That style is all over Chicago (usually in the form of an apartment building). Looks OK to me.

Yes, obviously Cleveland has better transit than Milwaukee. Not sure how you can say that about land-use patterns, as that pretty much gets back to Milwaukee's lakefront planning. Also, there are sections of the river in Milwaukee that slope down just like the flats, albeit on a smaller scale. These areas are not in the heart of downtown but are just north of it; and are former industrial ares that are now residential. Here is the area I'm talking about. I think it would be a good example for the flats. https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.057679,-87.899133&spn=0.002627,0.004442&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=43.057724,-87.90003&panoid=9S2KEVaDdrqal5s36emldA&cbp=12,77.75,,0,3.5 https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.053877,-87.905678&spn=0.003716,0.008883&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.053874,-87.907713&panoid=k-XTad4h9DzDzIlQEtkLNA&cbp=12,186.01,,0,2.08 And here is another section of Milwaukee that has been developed where there are less slopes, but still a good example to look at. https://maps.google.com/maps?ll=43.031208,-87.907931&spn=0.003717,0.008883&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=43.031207,-87.909973&panoid=ri32uxNoOeH4ZLhUwkFuDA&cbp=12,102.8,,0,-1.19 I think Cleveland still has a ways to catch up to Milwaukee when it comes to riverfront development. It's because of Ohio State's student housing and adjacent neighborhoods I think.

I don't fit either myself, so was wondering the same. Having lived in major hipster neighborhoods and bro neighborhoods, I can say that bros annoy me more than hipsters. At least hipsters generally have a broader range of interests and don't act like meatheads. Although, occasionally a pretentious hipster douche will surface. Or the hipster who is just trying way too hard to be "original."

Yeah, I agree they're not what is now considered a "bro" by most. However, this is what these types were called when I lived in San Diego. It's very specific to SoCal and I see how it would create confusion.

As Murray Hill mentioned there is a lot Cleveland can learn from Portland as far as urban development, but I also agree that Milwaukee is a good city to look too for ideas. Cleveland has a lot more in common with Milwaukee than it does Portland. Milwaukee has done a good job of redeveloping it's former industrial riverfront with residential development and it has a great lakefront that is on the same scale as Cleveland's. Of course Milwaukee did a better job than Cleveland from the get-go as far as urban planning goes. Milwaukee has always had a lakefront that is parkland in the heart of the city, and has always had nice neighborhoods along that lakefront near the downtown.

I think the hipster is different than the 80s & 90s bohemians. The 80s & 90s bohemians had their own groups and were a product of something original (e.g. goths, college rocker, ravers, punks). The hipster has just taken all the avant garde or "authetic" ideas of past generations and molded into their persona. Nothing really original has been created from the hipster movement. Metal heads, at least in their original form, I think were pretty different than hipsters (aside from bad hair and tight jeans). I see metal heads as more macho and blue collar. Hipsters seem passive and pseudo-intellectual.

This is the truth for sure! And the term Trixie is a Chicago term. One "bro" label not considered is one that I heard when living in San Diego. Although, this version of bro is not much like the others and is kind of like a blue-collar SoCal redneck meets skater punk. I have only seen this type of bro in SoCal and Vegas, but they used to be pretty common there. Not sure how big this scene still is though.This version of bro is also called a flatbiller by some. http://www.flatbiller.com/

This is true. LA actually has some pretty good density. However, its problem IMO is that this density is not continuous and is spotty. There are sections of LA that have dense housing blocks next to neighborhoods with suburban ranch houses. Another problem with LA is the commercial corridors are spread out far apart and are auto-centric, which is not accommodating for pedestrians. I think SF has those buses due to the fact that SF's transit system is poor given the urban character of the city. You also have a lot of high tech job sprawl there combined with workers who want the urban core. Like I said before, I don't agree that LA has good continuous density (at least in built form). Although, with LA it's because it was built that way. With the rust belt it's because neighborhoods have declined. Madison and Milwaukee have very pedestrian friendly cores. I have visited Milwaukee without driving, and just getting around by bus and walking. Milwaukee actually has a great core of neighborhoods and it clearly has less "missing teeth" than Cleveland does. There are nice residential areas of Milwaukee with densities in the 20,000 to 30,000 range. Milwaukee is actually a very underrated city. I think it would be a good candidate for a streetcar in the core of the city to link those core neighborhoods. I agree, but unfortunately it has not translated except for Shaker Square. Little Italy is also getting a new transit stop in the center of the neighborhood, which I think will drive some TOD. Ohio City should be the real TOD target for Cleveland. This neighborhood should have a density of at least 30,000 in my mind, and I believe right now it probably has 1/3 that. There is lots of room in Ohio City for modern row-house development and mid-rise buildings along the commercial corridors.

My impression of NYC is that it does not have much of a "frat-bro" factor like Chicago, but I could be wrong about that. I do know some of the east side of Manhattan is like that (e.g. Murray Hill). Lower Manhattan always gave me a yupster vibe mixed in with Euro-trash. And there are of course tons of yuppies all over Manhattan. Never did spend much time in Brooklyn, but I hear it's full of hipsters. Next time I'm in NYC I plan to do some exploring in Brooklyn. From my recent travels I would say that Montreal had the most overall hipster-ish vibe I have experienced in a North American city (it made Chicago look like a city full of squares). New Orleans also had a ton of hipsters. I have never been to Portland though. I have not been to Cbus in a while. I could probably say the same thing about the "hip" places in Cleveland being similar to those in Chicago. At least the good restaurants in Cleveland would also be praised in Chicago. There is nowhere in Cleveland I would really call a yuppie neighborhood, but it does have some hipsters for sure.

What about the Short North these days? I remember it used to be kind of the gay/eclectic area. Is it just a yuppie hood these days? I would not call Chicago "extremely hipster" in the overall sense (I live in Wicker Park). Yes, they're present in high numbers in the neighborhoods that you mentioned and seem to be spreading. Logan Square is going crazy with new hipster hangouts these days. However, I think there are definitely more yuppie/trixie/frat-bro types in Chicago, which dominate the downtown and the north side lakefront areas. It very much depends on the neighborhood in Chicago though. Wicker Park is certainly trending more yuppie these days, which I agree has really taken hold the past 3-5 years. Although, it still has a different vibe than the north side lakefront IMO. I would say Yupster is a good term to use for WP. There are a few "bro" bars in WP now. Those places are usually only like that on weekends though, so I'm not sure if their clientele is mostly from the neighborhood or is invading WP on the weekends. I'm sure Chicago has more hipsters than any other Midwest city based on size, but not sure about per capita. I hear Minneapolis has a lot, but can't say personally since I have never been there.

Anyone know the history of running Chester through Hough? I have searched online but could never find any photos or history of this. I have just seen a couple of aerials of the area before the construction of Chester. It's my understanding that Hough was still pretty much a middle class area when Chester was built.

That infill looks great!

I agree with this. What C-Dawg is describing sounds like yuppies who have taken on a hipster persona. Hipster is, or should I say was, a neo-bohemian movement. They were urban pioneers and liked things avant guarde. The real hipsters were the poor kids who originally moved to places like Williamsburg and the Mission when nobody else wanted to. These days hipster has become more mainstream and is basically a worthless term that is way overused.

True, and I think that in time the Flats will take that title again. If that happens then I would like to see the Warehouse District be more focused on shopping, dining, and more residential (with those parking lots filled in!) In 1950 Cleveland had about the same density as Baltimore and DC. It has the bones to be a dense city again. Unfortunately its density was the greatest on the east side, which is a shell of its former self. Population of the 100 Largest Urban Places: 1950 Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census Internet Release date: June 15, 1998 --------------------------------------------------------------- | | | | Density | | | Land| (average | | | area| popula- | | | (sq.| tion per Rank | Place 1/ |Population| miles)|sq. mile) --------------------------------------------------------------- 1 New York city, NY *...... 7,891,957 315.1 25,046 2 Chicago city, IL......... 3,620,962 207.5 17,450 3 Philadelphia city, PA.... 2,071,605 127.2 16,286 4 Los Angeles city, CA..... 1,970,358 450.9 4,370 5 Detroit city, MI......... 1,849,568 139.6 13,249 6 Baltimore city, MD....... 949,708 78.7 12,067 7 Cleveland city, OH....... 914,808 75.0 12,197 8 St. Louis city, MO....... 856,796 61.0 14,046 9 Washington city, DC...... 802,178 61.4 13,065 10 Boston city, MA.......... 801,444 47.8 16,767 11 San Francisco city, CA... 775,357 44.6 17,385 12 Pittsburgh city, PA...... 676,806 54.2 12,487 13 Milwaukee city, WI....... 637,392 50.0 12,748 14 Houston city, TX......... 596,163 160.0 3,726 15 Buffalo city, NY......... 580,132 39.4 14,724

Cleveland rock radio is horrible, and that's sad since it's supposed to be the rock & roll city. How can you not have a modern/alternative/indie rock station? WMMS and WNCX also sound tired and in need for some improvement.

Correct. That area is upscale and not hipster. Not really. Artists flooded into Berlin after the fall of the Wall, and in the 90s squatted in older buildings. I beleive Prenzlauerberg was the first to have a big influx or artists squating in buildings but is now pretty gentrified (by Berlin standards). This is in the old East Germany but is mostly older historic buildings. Kreuzberg has also been an artist hub for some time and is an old west Germany area that has mostly older buildings. It was Berlin's punk epicenter in the 70's.

In Berlin? They're all over but especially in Kreuzberg, Friedrichshain, Prenzlauerberg, and Neukolln. West Berlin to the west of the Tiegarten is less hipster and more upscale, particularly around the Kurfurstendamm (Berlin's main shopping street).