Rustbelter

I grew up in Ashtabula, a town that is typical of this decline. Towns like Ashtabula have lost the industries that once made them prosperous; and are left with few economic opportunities for people, a population that is poor and under-educated or elderly, and somewhat of an obsolete existence. Ashtabula in particular also suffers from rural sprawl and very poor planning that has allowed far too much unwarranted strip mall development at the expense of the downtown core. What you have left is a town full empty strip malls and a dead core, which has become a dump full of eyesores. There is really no reason that any young, educated person would want to live there. Quite a depressing situation indeed. One positive is that Ashtabula's second downtown located in the Harbor District has attracted new businesses in recent years. Not sure if this a Midwest or regional thing though. From what I have seen in my travels the South has by far the dumpiest small towns. Looking more regionally; I think Ohio, New York, Indiana, Illinois, and Michigan have a mix of nice small towns and dumps. One thing Michigan has done well that puts Ohio to shame is having Great Lakes towns that are nice and attract tourism. Just compare Traverse City, Saugatuck, Grand Haven, and Marqutte to Sandusky, Loraine, Ashtabula, or Conneaut. PA I think has a ton of really cool small towns. I noticed many of these towns can be isolated due to the state's geography and don't sprawl that much. They just seem to function how they always have, even if their population is poorer than in the past. Many PA towns have great building stock as well. Another state that has a lot of nice small towns and cities is Wisconsin. It seems like every small town I have been to there is well kept with a nice central business district (with way too many bars for its size).

This thread is a take-off of Htsguy's post in another thread. Thought it would make for an interesting topic since I'm originally from one of those declining small urban centers and I suspect others on here are as well.

I don't think the trust fund hipster, or "original hipsters" as C-Dawg calls them, are any more common than the trust fund kids who want to live the yuppie lifestyle. I believe that hipsters have "avant-garde" tastes and most are either 1) college educated folks who are underemployed and likely have liberal arts degrees; 2) working professionals with hipster tastes; or 3) actual artists or musicians (typically these are rare or poseurs). Unfortunately hipsters are neither bohemian nor a counter culture; but are a sub-culture. They are a group of people who are fans of previous counter cultures from the post war era, and have rehashed aspects of previous generations while creating nothing original themselves. I can't say they totally annoy me though. I have come across a few that have for sure (especially the bike-shop hipsters!), but at least they're an alternative to the MTV and redneck crowds. Their like has produced some good, albeit unoriginal music acts and most hipster bars will at least offer some good tunes. They're also currently the best at being urban pioneers and settling in neighborhoods that would otherwise be in decline.

Savannah is certainly on my list of places to visit, although I do have the impression that it's a VERY nice historic district surrounded by ghetto. I'm kind of curious why someone would prefer Savannah to Charleston? I have not been to either one, but my impression is that Charleston is the larger and more active city with some nice beaches near by.

Buildings of similar magnitude as the Franklin Castle are divided into apartments all the time. Just look at Chicago 3-flats and NYC brownstones. In Chicago I have seen similar buildings divided into 3 to 6 apartments units, and that does not include the carriage house.

So I came across this horribly cheesy video on Youtube: It's before my day but it did remind me of Cleveland's old bar scene in the Flats, which I was just old enough to experience before its rapid decline. While the video above is easy to make fun of, it also says something about Cleveland's nightlife scene at the time since it was featured on MTV (when MTV still meant something). I moved out of Northeast Ohio back in 2002, but I still come back many times a year and usually end up hitting the town while I'm visiting. Cleveland's nightlife has certainly changed since the late 90's when I first started going to bars. Since then I have seen a LOT more bars and restaurants pop up in the west side neighborhoods, The formation of 4th Street, the Warehouse district get less classy, and of course the decline of the Flats. Hopefully we will see a resurgence of the flats over the next decade because it was sure a cool and unique place to party. So anyone have any old school Cleveland bar experiences to share? Some places I have good memories of when I first got a fake ID.....err I mean turned 21. Club 1148 - was actually a later version of that club in the video. Used to go there for college ID night on Thursdays. Trilogy - used to go to "church" there on Sundays. Huge and gritty techno club with some crazy patrons. Lots of blatant drug use in that place. Jimmy's - run down flats dive that for some reason I always had a blast at. Maybe because they served 32oz beers? The Basement - probably the most notorious Flats bar. Always wise to avoid the dentist chair! Wish - my favorite Warehouse District bar/lounge. Was tucked away and you had to enter the place through a dark alley. Cool three level setup with an awesome staircase. I always wondered why that place closed down?

The layout of offices depicted in that article is horrible, but I know the City's recent lakefront plan did call for offices at that location. However, they were laid out in a more urban friendly manner that allowed for lake access as well. It's just like this developer completely ignored that plan, so hopefully the City sticks to their guns as to how this area should be designed and not just let this developer slap whatever they want at that location. If done right this could be a good development and it also has access to the Rapid.

Sounds like I live around the same area as you, and while it's the most convenient part of the city (especially if you're living car free), the atmosphere is certainly lacking. I miss my old hood of Wicker Park for sure when it comes to atmosphere and socializing. Although I think my favorite part of the city in terms of atmosphere is probably the North Center/Lincoln Square area since it's not too hipster or yuppie, but still has enough trendiness to keep it interesting. I'm trying to figure out exactly when the first hipsters came to be? Around 2001 would have been some early hipsters for sure. I probably didn't become fully aware of their presence and what they actually were until around 2003. Although I used to hang out at Thursday's Lounge in Akron a lot in the late 90's, and I'm sure many of the people who hung out at that place at the time could have qualified as hipsters. I just didn't know about the term at the time. Oh, and Heavy Metal Parking lot rules!

Not really a big deal. Those buildings are not a big loss and I imagine it will be 15-20 years before the W. 25th dream scenario in my previous email becomes a feasible reality. If a substantial residential project is ever built between Aust and Franklin those buildings would be demolished for it anyway.

The parking is nothing a well designed parking garage east of 25th street wouldn't fix. Overall I like this plan a lot. I would like to see something like the Intesa development, that is currently proposed for University Circle, be built on the east side of 25th (minus the office space). On the SE corner I would also like to see a building on a similar scale as the existing bank building across the street be built. I think this is the best area in the city for potential TOD. The worst area is north of the Hospital. The west side of 25th seems like great land for midrise buildings with skyline views, but today it looks horrible along there. North of the subsidized housing buildings on the east of 25th should all be leveled and turned into the park along the river bank. Unfortunately the subsidized highrise will never go anywhere for political reasons.

I can see that in some, but there are also still buildings that look underutilized or empty. Particularly the block between 21st and 22nd street. I just think this area could be a great downtown neighborhood, but I imagine the residential population in those buildings is not nearly what it could be.

Anyone know what the story is with the warehouse buildings along Superior between E. 21st and E. 26th? Seems like this area would make a nice residential loft district. Not to mention some nice infill potential between Superior and CSU, which has already started along Chester.

It's the same deal in other cites like NYC, Boston, Chicago, or any older urban area in the USA. It's not just a Cleveland thing, although talking to a lot of Clevelanders you would think that was the case. I live in Chicago and can tell you the public city schools are no better. Like Cleveland, the city schools are made up of mostly minority kids who are likely lower class as well. White people and middle class minorities move to the suburbs when it's time to put their kids in school. I bet Chicago's city schools are maybe 10% white, which is telling. There are some differences though. Chicago does have a few elite public schools that are racially mixed and considered good, but they're really tough to get into. Chicago also has a much larger proportion of higher income people who choose to live in the city, and of those there are some with families who put their kids in private schools. That being said, there is not a whole lot of difference and you will not see a lot of families in Chicago's trendier neighborhoods near downtown or on the north side. One difference between Cleveland and Chicago where there is a big difference is the prevailing attitude among people about city life in general. Nobody in Chicago is going to question your sanity about choosing to live or raise a family in the city (I should say a good neighborhood within the city), even the 45+ staunchly suburbanite types. Although they might question how you could afford to raise a family there, given that space and private schools are very expensive in Chicago. True, but space is another reason. Americans like big houses and yards more than good architecture or walkable neighborhoods. Also, there are also a good amount of people who avoid some inner suburbs like Lakewood or Shaker Heights simply due to high property taxes.

Chicago still has 93.1 XRT, which is modern/indie with some alternative rock "classics" thrown in. Q101 was a crap station that played lame modern rock stuff like Lincoln Park. Chicago also has a great classic rock station (97.1), so to me the radio in Chicago is just fine. It's not as good as when I lived in Southern California though, but certainly way better than Cleveland.

I have also stayed in LIC during trips to NYC. I think this area will continue to boom due to its proximity to Manhattan and subway service. I'm actually surprised it remained fairly undeveloped for so long.

Rochester does not seem too bad to me. In my experience it has urban neighborhoods on its east side that are more vibrant than neighborhoods found in Ohio's second tier cities, as well as easy access to Lake Ontario and the Finger Lakes. The highway ring around the downtown does suck though. It also produces Genesee beer, which helped keep me intoxicated during my broke college years.

It's pretty pathetic that Cleveland does not have a decent modern rock format station at this time. Especially since Cleveland is supposed to be the rock & roll city! I actually don't think that the city has had a good one since 107.9 was the End. And yes, they still exist in other markets beyond college radio.

Great photos of Akron's best neighborhood! Lots of familiar sites there for me. Actually, the area of Market Street just west of downtown could use some work. From about North Street to MLK there are lots of car lots and other anti-urban land uses.

Well there is a Church Brewery in Pittsburgh. http://www.churchbrew.com/ It looks like they would have an ideal spot to set up shop if they wanted to expand to the Cleveland market.

^^^ I work down the street from there and was wondering what was going to be built at that location. The new grocery store over there is awesome by the way.

I think that church would make a good micro-brewery or distillery. How does Edgewater whiskey sound? As far as a new grocery store goes, I think a layout with parking on the roof level may be feasible. Underground parking would not happen unless a residential building was part of the development, which unfortunately does not appear to be in the cards.

I was originally skeptical when I heard about a transit center in the warehouse district, but I do like this plan a lot. The residential component would of course be great and it nicely fills a city block that is horrible surface parking. I think a smart developer would also build on the north side of Frankfort, basically mirroring the low-rise buildings shown on the south side of the street in that rendering. This could be used to create another E. 4th type street, which I believe was an aspect of one of the warehouse district development plans that had been proposed in the past. Frankfort could then later be developed to the west as the area grows. Sounds like someone needs to give the local business owners a lesson in critical mass though. Not to mention informing them that there are plenty of places to build a parking deck as the parking lots get developed in the future.

Does Cleveland have any good Neapolitan style pizza places these days? Many have popped up here in Chicago over the last several years, which is fine by me because the traditional Chicago thin-crust (yes, there is such a thing) is nothing to write home about in my book. Pizza joints will oddly cut round pizzas into squares here for some reason.

Well I have to say that I like Burnham's layout better than the actual site plan. It makes me question the design process if someone on this forum can come up with something that to me is obviously better. I would like to think that the professional architects who come up with the site plan also came up with something similar, but it was rejected by the city or CSU for some foolish reason. That being said, I don't think the proposed layout is too bad. If the north side of those back lots is eventually built upon it would resemble a housing block like those found in many European cities where you have multi-story apartments surrounding a central open area that is used for parking and/or green space. My biggest problem is with those townhomes. It looks like the architect came up with something out of 1990's suburbia for inspiration. It's not that hard to look at new housing being built in other cities to get ideas that are more contemporary. This makes me question if Cleveland has any good local architects, lacks design standards, or if CSU just wants this kind of outdated look for some reason.

Well this is probably true, but not exactly much to brag about really. I'm a big supporter and a former resident of Akron, but it still does not have what I would consider a vibrant downtown by any means. If you think it does then I would have to say that you have some low standards. That being said I have seen the city make some pretty nice strides since I lived there about 10 years ago and I believe that it's on the right track. When I first moved there in the mid-90s there was pretty much nothing downtown that would make anyone want to hang out there. When I was down there last summer it was nice to hang out on a bar patio and enjoy a few beers on a Saturday afternoon with other people actually around. That's something you would simply not see 10 years ago. There is a Tilted Kilt in Chicago. You're take on it basically being a Hooters with a Irish bar theme is spot-on.