Burnham_2011

Nah, I think colors are definitely the way to go. http://www.humantransit.org/2011/03/seoul-buses-that-tell-you-where-they-go.html They are more than just a way to make the city more attractive, they also make it easier for people to recognize routes from afar.

Thanks for all the thoughts/facts/conjecture! So in general people seem to agree we could do with bike lanes, widened tree/garden lawns. What's the general feeling out there on perhaps limiting a couple of lanes off of Saint Clair, Superior maybe Prospect as you get closer. I'm very much a Pedestrians > Cars, policy oriented person, but I think this is bigger than that. Until we start enacting policies that favor public transit and pedestrians Cleveland cannot hope to move forward on building a walkable downtown. Walkable streets mean narrower streets that are multi-modal and have unique and interesting streetscapes. I really like the picture of what Chicago did. Check out these ideas for mitigating traffic near bike lanes: http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_10300289?IADID=Search-www.mercurynews.com-www.mercurynews.com&nclick_check=1 For those who recall the Group Plans "red carpet" that would cross Superior from the Arcade to the Mall, I would argue that while that is a good idea, it still does not make the street more pedestrian friendly, rather it just makes a bold crosswalk available. Lastly, again on the NOLA streets, I was staying at the Lafayette Hotel, when I walked outside I was facing a main avenue (their Euclid Ave, sort of) Saint Charles Avenue. directly in front of me was a 2 lane road with an occasional wider stretch in front of some hotels for valet and drop off. The street was calm and easy to cross. Even if there is sparse traffic on Superior, it is a lot more imposing to cross. The below picture shows this street (notice the street car line in the left lane!) This is not a unique street in downtown but how most of the East/West roads run. You can see, in the background, skyscrapers and a park to the right -- this is immediately downtown. Just putting this out there to show how the streets could look.

@Punch -- Though there are some 3 lane roads like that, if you look at a map of New Orleans' Central Business District all the way through uptown and then to Audobon Park you'll find the standard street grid has narrow streets, and some boulevards with narrow 2 lane roads on either side of the boulevard. You'll also notice that the street blocks are smaller in general and consistent. Jane Jacobs argued in favor of smaller blocks and narrower streets because they favor the pedestrian. As part of the Vision for Cleveland put forward by the Group Plan there was a clear effort to make it more tourist friendly which I think is essential. The reality is that walking from Tower City to the Flats East Bank, up to the Mall, over to E 9th and then up to Euclid is not only a long walk, but also one with vast surface lots, wide streets that favor speeding cars, and areas with little to no activity. I think some of these wider roads can be altered to incorporate lanes for bikes, but all told, I think wider sidewalks that incorporate Newstands, offer public areas for resting, and space for Cafe's to build out could be really useful.

I'm really looking for some insight on this issue, so if anyone can help (beyond just discussing) I'd love to hear thoughts and examples as to why... In another post I discussed the City of New Orleans and how it has some qualities that I think Cleveland could really benefit from. One was the narrower streets. Using google earth I determined that there are apparently 2 street widths throughout downtown and residential New Orleans. They seem to require smaller streets to be 20 feet wide (1 lane of parking, and 2 lanes for driving) and bigger city streets are 30 feet wide. Any of the boulevards in the city are made up of either two 20 foot roads which a median or two 30 foot roads, this means that at no time would a pedestrian need to cross 4 or more lanes of traffic. I also noticed that one both weekdays and weekends there was no gridlock, and little traffic. My question is why, then, does Cleveland have 70'+ wide avenues like Superior, St Clair, Chester, Prospect, and even streets like W6th are 55 feet wide which have 2 lanes of parking and then 3 more lanes for driving. W9th has 2 lanes of parking and then 4 lanes for driving. My first question is does anyone know how this came to be? Historically roads were narrower in older cities, so clearly at some point in our history they were widened (perhaps some to support street cars), and left that way. But I don't understand why we need to keep them so wide now. If anything it's a HUGE opportunity for Cleveland to have beautiful wide streets capes providing space for cafes and restaurants. Is the discussion over the public square redesign a lot of people mentioned closing off the square and requiring traffic to circulate around it. Most people seemed confident (and I agree) that Cleveland does not have the kind of traffic to mandate ultra wide streets everywhere. We also have plenty of parking.... It seems to me that Cleveland has been far-too-long run by people that act like Robert Moses and simply believe massive roads and parking at every corner is the ideal "city". Below is a picture I submit as a crude but reasonable image of a narrower pedestrian friendly W6th. I submit it and request that others explain their support or dissent from moving toward narrower streets, especially in the WHD.

So I just returned from my first trip to New Orleans and feel the need to report something dramatic. New Orleans is, in so many ways, what Cleveland could have been. I'll post pictures and maps and all sorts of things later, but this thread goes out to people how have and have not been to New Orleans, to openly discuss what we could take away from it. But first a brief description. New Orleans is set up along the Mississippi (think Lake Erie Coast, not Cuyahoga) and is made up of Central Business District, French Quarter, Warehouse District, Garden District, Uptown and Audobon Park. Running from the Center of Downtown all the way out to uptown is the Saint Charles Street Car. The route begins at Canal Street (think Ontario) and goes along the CBD, passes through the Garden District (which is mostly blocks of homes, think: Hough, Kinsman, and Central) and goes up to the Audobon Park and Tulane University (think University Circle and Wade Park). The length of this route is 4.45 miles. Euclid Avenue from PS to University Circle is 4.37 miles. Along the route are century old mansions that attract tourists. This gorgeous street reminds me of what Euclid Avenue looked like 80 years ago. In fact, it looks a lot like Shaker Blvd. today with the Street car running through the median. When you arrive at Audobon Park you see an area about 150% that of Wade Park, (and considerably more natural looking a.k.a. less landscape architecture/planning), and adjacent to the park is the New Orleans Zoo. Gorgeous! Lastly is the French Quarter, which covers a space about twice that of the Warehouse District. Now I can't truly compare these two on any level. The Quarter is historic, gorgeous and filled to the brim with activity and residents. It would be as if the entire WHD was filled with smaller early 20th century brick buildings each with apartments above and retail on the ground level. However, geographically it is similar in that you can cross from the CBD to the French Quarter without a gap, like walking along Superior Ave. in Cleveland. So a few takeaways. First, you can immediately tell that New Orleans is a place where history is not taken lightly. In the downtown proper, there are century old buildings between the skyscrapers, and almost zero surface parking lots. Another very interesting note is that the roads are all extremely pedestrian friendly. Their main avenues and roads downtown are all 2 lanes! During short gaps between cars people walk across the streets without fear. The 4/5/6 lane Goliath roads crossing downtown Cleveland make for Junior Highways, in comparison to the roads in New Orleans, and yet I never once saw congestion on the streets! Aside from narrow roads (which in the French Quarter turn into 1.5 lanes tops!) there is an antique streetcar on St. Charles Avenue. Now many would say this is a moot point, water under the bridge, but the fact is I am still depressed that Euclid Avenue was not given back it's street car. In a recently Planetizen article they cited 9 cities in North America that were placing street cars on main roads (not just Portland or San Fransisco!). I understand it is expensive and there wasn't enough support for it, but after seeing the street car in New Orleans this past week I literally got a pit of my stomach feeling when I heard the car clank down the road (each time!). They have antique cars on this line. It is an enormous tourist attraction and an easy way for people to get from Downtown to Uptown without much confusion. It's $1.25 and you just pay and get on. In the past when I've taken suburban tourists out to East Fourth or shown them the downtown, they tend to either be confused or underwhelmed by the Healthline. Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan, but gosh darn it #&%@*!!!! what a lost opportunity. It's, for all intents and purposes, a bus line. And people aren't excited or interested in a bus line. I know ridership is up, and I believe Cleveland will see major benefits from the health line over the long term, but the opportunity to bring "America's Mainstreet" back, even a little, would have been just amazing. Imagine a 1920s replica street car riding up to Mayfield and Euclid along the new corridor. Imagine ,and really just imagine, if we had early 20th century train stops, benches, and even street lights. If we had embraced our history instead of just getting the cheaper and modern answer to the question. If cities have a soul New Orleans' is healthy and beautiful. They have a nick name (the Crescent City) a theme Jazz, and historic locations and buildings. Are we the New American City? The Forest City? And if we're synonymous with Rock, why don't we have tons of Rock venues in walkable areas downtown where 1950s style rock music is played by cover bands, and new music is pumped out? DISCLAIMER: I love our town, and want so much for it to grow and evolve into a even greater city -- but we need to find an identity and make it ours as much as, if not more than) we need a Casino or Medical Mart. We need walkable streets, navigable transit, and a way to express what it is to be a Clevelander. The history, the theme of our town is great. Why can't our leaders make a vision and policy agenda out of that?

^^Agreed Or even something more standard/classic.

Has anyone seen this before? http://cryptocleveland.tumblr.com/post/1481096113/on-shared-parking-and-the-may-company Saw it on the CDC forum under the razin of the stanley block article.... Just curious what you guys think of these ideas.

I'm not necessarily married to the specific building, but the idea of using that lot for surface parking makes me sick... Ontario out to Huron and Prospect out to East 4th radiating from the Prospect exit of the casino is going to be a monstrously popular area. A small surface parking lot caddy-corner from the casino?!?!? Me-thinks they are hoping VIPs will pay big bucks for a spot. Me-also-thinks this can't be allowed to happen. Mr. Mayor? Mr. Cimperman? GET IN THERE. In this picture, Orange represents potential infill, and purple for rehab/replacements. This street (leading to the Q and Casino Phase 2) should be heavily developed, not the opposite.

Where's the demolition thread?

:clap: Wasnt this going to be a boutique hotel of some sort?

archangel -- sorry for the confusion Yes, the Railroad bridge is enormous... I will say this, though, converting these overpasses into public art is a fantastic idea and essential to making the streets more welcoming. That said, it's useless if the "neighborhood" ends, so to speak, at the bridge. If no one is walking under is then it might as well be a big billboard. I live in DC and the Chinatown one here is very nice, and not as big as that picture indicates. The estimate was $1M to build it, don't know if that includes the install. Some people might disagree with this, but when I looked through the pdf I was very excited by the streetscapings. I consider fresh, clean and interesting streetscapes with accompanying urban furniture, to be incredibly important to rehabilitating and connecting neighborhoods. Especially when trying to combat a negative viewpoint, that many suburbanites and tourists have of cities like Cleveland and Detroit, new granite curbs, red brick cross walks, and signage have an almost magical ability to make people feel comfortable and encourage businesses to expand, develop, and take care of their own appearances.

I think Tower City is going to have to play a big role in this and therefore Forest City Enterprises, Inc. Though we clearly will need to keeping adding to the downtown residents group Tower City Center and the Avenue is by far the most likely place for high tier retailers to set up shop. Though I often dislike people pointing out that our cold and long winters make street life more challenging, I will acknowledge that this massive (and gorgeous) indoor shopping center is ideal. Perhaps the Casino (phase 2) will encourage some higher caliber retailers into the avenue, and as this mall reinvents itself so too could retail in downtown. The problem, as always, would be using this as a catalyst for people to move about the city streets proper. I can't remember, but are there any properties available in tower city that could host a department store? Or was that the reason there was an additional Higbees building?

I think that it would be reasonable to say that by 2050 most of us here would like (perhaps find it essential) that Downtown Cleveland have both at least 1 anchor department store, and a variety of top-tier designer stores at the street level nearby. This would be more of a effect than cause per se, but certainly a big part of what would be the vision for the city. In terms of a more straight forward list: 1. Downtown Loop (Waterfront Extension) 2. Public Square connected/redesigned 3. Remaining lot off public square developed (Skyscraper?) 4. Stark Like WHD plan. 5. Casino Phase 2 (let's hope that's not so much a dream as a near certainty) 6. Transportation to make Market District and WHD easily traveled between. 7. Flats East Bank development at full 2006 plans level. 8. West Bank of Flats planned, perhaps amidst development, and pedestrian bridges. 9. Group Plan Fully Implemented. 10. Avenue District inhabited (sigh) and new buildings erected. 11. Columbus Peninsula turned into a recreation area, completed Tow Path and connection to Settler's Landing. 12. 40 more years of what University Circle seems to be so good at doing recently! 13. Little Italy and University circle stops on Red Line. Perhaps a West Side East Side rail line reutilizing the Superior Bridge lower level. 14. Presidential Convention Host City at least once, and a damned national sports championship!!!!!!!!!!!! Whew, if that was Cleveland in 2050 I think we'd have pitched the Urbanist's equivalent of back to back perfect games. (EDIT: But considering that 40 years ago this city was home to 750,903 people, we know a lot can happen in that amount of time).

Agreed 100% (hence this thread!) I don't know if it's a zoning issue or if this is something that City Council can (should?) be involved in, but the use of the first floor in buildings needs to be examined in Cleveland. I live in D.C. and an area nearby has developed a vibrant street life. I have spoken with some restaurant owners and others who run businesses there and many of the buildings are vacant (or only slowly filling in the office space) above the ground floor. A lot of owners and developers treat the ground floor space as almost a separate building as the rest of it. In busy dense areas of many cities apartment entrances are no more than a small doorway between the store fronts which line the avenues. There is absolutely no reason we should have so many first floors tied up by commercial interests and lobbies. When I look at the medical mutual building I can't help but imagine those first floors being taken up by J. Crew, Gucci, United Colors of Bennington (imagine that going up to Euclid and more at the Huntington? The Old Cleveland Trust Rotunda as an Urban Outfitters? (sorry everyone! I just know that looks like their kind of space....) When I see Medical Mutual, and 9th and Euclid/Prospect Area... I think 5th Ave. :drunk: (delusional/hopeful Clevelander)

I think the Chester/E12 area (once the new park is developed) could really be great, though I'm afraid as of now it looks like only Reserve Sq. offers retail space (?) The entire corridor of E12 could really be something in a 50 year picture. Also the Prospect/E14 area could really expand the potential of the Gateway -> Public Square area. I find this to be one of the most interesting areas of downtown (aside from the obvious WHD). The Prospect/Huron/E9 area is begging for development (The Ameritrust Building and skyway...) and if one could keep continuous (if somewhat sporadic) venues/residential/retail between the Casino (Phase 2) and Playhouse Sq. (including Bolivar Road and Erie court (brick roads... awesome!) along here we could really see a vibrant scene.

Not to beat a dead horse, but I have to say the height of the building does not affect the quality of the street life. We're mixing up causality and correlation. Sure, in Cleveland there is no one outside the Key tower or at Superior and ninth. But this is not because the buildings around them are too tall. It is because they have nothing going on at the street level. In the end there are two factors that affect street life directly. 1. Number of people in the city at any given time (residents, tourists, suburban sports fans). 2. The amount of available activity at the ground level. The buildings at East fourth didn't get shorter in the last decade... the area become host to more ground level entertainment. Also, there are plenty of urban areas in Cleveland and elsewhere that are dead at 9pm on a Saturday night and have 7 story dense buildings. In fact, to keep the dreaded NYC comparison going, I was at Columbus Ave. in the 80s last weekend and though it was wall to wall buildings around the "Higbees" height I was one of only a few on the street. Why? Because the bar I was walking to, it turned out, was the only bar within 4 blocks! Everything else was closed.

Glad to see a discussion brewing. I agree with Hts121 and would prefer a more European build out (or D.C. like if you're more familiar with that). I also, however, think that the Jacobs property on Public Square deserves an epic structure, if not 800+ then certainly some unique architectural piece with at least 300-400 feet in height. If for no other reason than to hide that ugly glass-curtain 55 Building. Also, I think suburbanites (who make up at least some of the population we need to attract back downtown) judge the positive or negative direction of the city by these structures. Just one more giant would really put a dent in the "2.5 building skyline" image others have. (I love our skyline for the record!) I don't think that skyscrapers are necessarily the cause of the a muted street life, but often get that blame because of cities (like Cleveland) who have bold skylines but little street life. The reality is that if the buildings lining East Fourth were 100 stories (and filled) the street life wouldn't be muted, it would, in fact, be explosive. The key is having those towers filled, and, most importantly, having street level retail and entertainment. Look at Key Tower, it might as well be a prison from the ground floor. Now imagine it has street level cafes with sidewalk tables, some shops, and a nice restaurant on the square. The signage, windows, and activity would change everything, and all with just a couple of shops and restaurants. The key, as always, is people. So I'd love to hear if people had policy thoughts for bringing the baby boomers back, or bringing in younger crowds to live downtown.

To start I humbly submit to the moderators this post. I don't know exactly where it could go. It's clearly Northeast Ohio, but it's sort of a fiction development piece. ------------ Maybe it's just me, but since the forum upgrade it feels like posting volume has gone down. Anyhow, I am truly grateful to UO posters who keep me up to date on all things Cleveland, and wanted to throw out a discussion piece. This is sort of a rough compilation of what (in a perfect world) Cleveland might look like in another generation or so. Jacobs' Tower, Phase 1 Lakefront development, Flats east bank, Avenue District, Casino Phase 2... Just thought people might like to discuss what their hopes would be for developmental direction of the city. Skyscrapers, dense shorter districts, a downtown loop (KJP sigh...) etc. I was recently telling a friend about how great Cleveland is, and that, in my opinion, if we could just make an obvious and easily navigable connection between our great assets (WSM, Downtown, UC, AT, LI) and get the suburbanites to fill in the population losses this would be one of the most interesting and vibrant towns in America.

I've got an out-of-the-blue question. Can anyone tell me what the "broader" visions for the Quay 55 development and surrounding areas was? Was there a Phase 2, so to speak? Anyone know anyone that lives out there? It just seems so desolate and lonely, if beautifully situated on the lake.

archangel - it was a very rough mockup, just to give people who aren't aware of what these look like an idea of it. Sheesh! Also, in the first picture it's not that off... These gates typical cross over a street (*yes Superior is ultra-wide) and they have to go over the street with an appropriate height (+100'). Either way though, my point was that turning the railroad bridge into a "makeshift" gate would be more of a bookend to Asia Town and less of a gateway. Ideally, in my opinion, the gate would forge a connection between downtown and Asia Town, and thus would be a free standing gateway you could cross beneath walking east-west on Superior.

Just for fun (sorry guys, I'm a huge fan of the Paifang Gate idea!)

Huge YES to the Paifang gate idea. It's interesting to put it by the railroad bridge, but I've always thought having it over Superior close to I-90 would be better. It's meant to sort of be a gateway into the neighborhood and by putting it between Asia Town and Downtown you would create an iconic connection between them.

Ah, so does anyone want to offer an answer? to my question ^^^^^^^

I know this is not FEB Construction related (sorry moderators) but I was born in 1985 so I missed the "glory days" of the FEB. Does anyone out there think they can adequately explain what went wrong? I hear amazing things about a vibrant entertainment district that was one of the best in the country (?). It's hard to believe that kind of scene didn't spur a Stark like investment and a perpetually growing community in the W.H.D. during the 90s. So... what went wrong? Also, I know the FEB Entertainment district was out by Front Ave and Old River Rd, but did it go all the way up old river to W. St Clair? Did that strip of beautiful old buildings used to be alive and vibrant? Thanks for educating someone who wasn't around to see it!

By far the best thing about the temporary location is it's location on Public Square. I just hope the design/layout encourages guests to see the square while walking in (maybe only have the inside Terminal Tower/Higbees entrance open some of the time? [cold months]), so it's a bit of a challenge to get from Shaker Square to a slot machine without seeing the surrounding... you know.... CITY! :-)