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OK moderators - I'm done on this topic, but here's a study taken from the Ohio Department of Development (www.odod.state.oh.us) and the point I am trying to get across is that the annex of Columbus makes a huge difference in regards to the homicide rate within the "city" lines. If you disagree with me, that's good. It's an opinion forum, isn't it? No need for global mod's to help the admins win an argument that has no "correct" answer.. :roll: Correct comparison of Cleveland and Columbus on population rate (taking 8 closest/connecting counties combined for a regional metro population based on 2004 study): 1,350,000 - cuyahoga (cleveland) 550,000 - summit (akron) 381,000 - stark (canton) 294,000 - lorain (lorain/elyria) 232,000 - lake (painesville/mentor) 165,000 - medina (medina/brunswick) 154,000 - portage (kent) 94,000 - geauga (aurora) ___________ 3.2 million METRO CLEVELAND (If you add nearby Youngstown and it's 2 counties, that's another 500,000) 1,060,000 - franklin (columbus) 145,000 - licking (newark, oh) 122,000 - fairfield (lancaster) 110,000 - delaware (delaware) 54,000 - knox - mt. vernon 52,000 - pickaway (circleville) 40,000 - madison (london, oh) 40,000 - union (marysville) ___________ 1.6 million METRO COLUMBUS (If you add the nearby Marion, Morrow, Muskingum, Coshocton, Perry, Hocking, Ross, Fayette, and Ross counties, you'll be lucky to add another 400,000. Anything else is metro Cincinatti.)

Here is a crime ratio data index chart from 2002 (this includes all crimes, not just homicide): Columbus OH.....................6,233.5 Toledo OH.........................6,040.9 Dayton-Springfield OH.........4,928.6 Cincinnati OH-KY-IN............4,541.5 Youngstown-Warren OH.......4,411.8 Akron OH...........................4,172.0 Cleveland-Lorain-Elyria OH....3,769.5 Point here is that this is a badly compiled report.. don't always take a report or a figure or a number and call it the truth..

Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll: Cleveland is 78 Sq Mi, and Toledo is 81 Sq Mi. Columbus is....210 Sq Mi :roll: That's why Columbus is the "biggest city" in Ohio. Cleveland's direct metro is 3 million, more if you count Canton. Columbus combined metro is not more than 2 million, probably more like 1.5 unless you count Mansfield an hour north.. I am a realist and I believe that calling Columbus the biggest city in Ohio because of its annex is an incorrect evaluation. To me, "city population" should not draw the line at the edge of a city, but rather continue into the surrounding suburbs and drawn the line on either the edge of the county or the end of urbanized/suburbanized segments - whichever comes first (hence the concept of a metro population).

ColdDayMan, Unless 'per capita' is being used in the right manner, you need to understand that Columbus metro is roughly 1/2 of Cleveland metro. Yet the city of Columbus has a population nearly twice that of the city of Cleveland. So before doing a city contrast, the economic theorist doing the study needs to make sure these two factors are adjusted CORRECTLY into the 'per capita' aspect - many of these studies are garbage reports and are poor representations of the truth. Because being an editorial columnist for a regional newspaper requires controversial writing skills and not the ability to produce a viable economic study, let alone analyze one properly.

This once again is a mis-notion in the world of statistics. You have to consider a few factors here that the results don't mention: 1) Columbus annexed and Cleveland didn't. End result = Columbus is a bigger city but actually still has a smaller metro. The city of Columbus' total population includes what would have been "safer" suburbs. If Cleveland annexed Cleveland Heights for example, this would lower the per capita rate since CH had 0 homicides in 2005 but has a good 40,000 people living within the city. 2) There is no mention why almost all cities had a huge spike in homicides between 2004 and 2005. I would mainly attribute that to the fact that most people are over 9/11 and have lost that "united" feeling that was present in much of 2002-2004. Cleveland's homicide rate jumped nearly 50% in 2005. I wouldn't be surprised if being rated the poorest city in the USA gave a lot of the inner-city Clevelanders a "tough" and "thuggish" feeling, just fueling the fire for violence in the city. 3) In addition to Cleveland's large change in homicide rate, Akron's own homicide rate jumped 100%. A real simple explanation: you can't base how bad a city is or what the worst city is on a year-to-year basis, but rather on a longer timeframe with additional elements thrown in, such as rape, robbery, arson, etc. In that case, I would then say that Youngstown or Dayton would surpass Cleveland. Basing the deadliest city on the number of homicides in the last year is extremely skewed and not a true representation. However, I do think Cleveland has some dangerous areas is quite deadly. That's not a doubt on my mind..

"1. West side of Cleveland, the entire area between I-90 and I-71 all the way west upto W. 130th St. Basically anything south of Ohio City and the Detroit Shoreway, west of Tremont, and north of I-71. Detroit, Clark, Denison, and Lorain are the 4 main east-west roads that make up this portion from W. 25th to W. 130th. Metrohealth, Riverside Cemetery, and both sides of Train Avenue = BAD things happening! You will hear a lot about homicides along Detroit between W. 70th-W. 90th." In reference to the dangerous areas on the west side of Cleveland, I would have to say that anywhere along Storer Avenue but particularly around W. 45th St. is the nastiest little section West of the Cuyahoga River.. I should post this data map I have, as it shows a minimum of at least 100 convicted sex offenders living within 1 mile of that quad. That's the ones who were caught..

Vermillion + Oberlin

J73, E. 185th St. is definately a safe area. However, I'd consider it a good cutoff point between good and bad. I wouldn't say that means E. 184th St. is dangerous, but rather that slowly things get worse, especially by the time you reach the mid-100's. As for around Beachland Ballroom/Collinwood, I would say that specific block is safe, but right around the corner is Villaview (running along I-90) which has seen several homicides in the last year. Otherwise, this area you are referring to is quite secluded from the rest of everything else. Bratenahl to the west, the lake to the north, and I-90 to the south. You pretty much have a capped off area from E. 135-E. 185, which truly isn't a bad area when compared to the rest of Cleveland. I'd agree that Warrensville Hts and Maple Hts aren't the best places, but when you look at the big picture: how many homicides, sex predators, and other crimes take place in those 2 inner-ring suburbs, you will notice a SIGNIFICANT difference when compared to any part of Cleveland, even at an equal ratio of people. Slavic Village near Broadway will most likely get better in the same way Tremont has. But that's going to take time. The area is slowly losing Polish/Slovakian residents to crime-ridden people. The "goonies" gang and many crimes are well documented in this area. I don't think Fleet is bad, but by golly, Broadway/Union is a damn shitty area..

Part of #2 listed above. I was in an accident right at where you are discussing, actually at E. 136th and Miles. It was a major accident and the cops never showed up even though ambulances/firetrucks were required to clear the scene. I don't ever want to visit that area again.

There are 4 bad areas in city of Cleveland (but by area, I mean BIG areas): 1. West side of Cleveland, the entire area between I-90 and I-71 all the way west upto W. 130th St. Basically anything south of Ohio City and the Detroit Shoreway, west of Tremont, and north of I-71. Detroit, Clark, Denison, and Lorain are the 4 main east-west roads that make up this portion from W. 25th to W. 130th. Metrohealth, Riverside Cemetery, and both sides of Train Avenue = BAD things happening! You will hear a lot about homicides along Detroit between W. 70th-W. 90th. 2. Anything east of E. 55th, south of Carnegie Avenue.. this is a large portion of the city, and the borderlines would be I-77 to the west, I-480 to the south, Shaker Square/Larchmere to the east, and the area includes Buckeye, Harvard, Union, and Miles. Union between E. 70th and E. 100th would be the worst part if you asked me. The Lost Triangle, referring to the railroad tracks and abandoned industrial sites situated between Union-Broadway-E. 93rd = BADDDDDDDDD!!! VERY BAD!!! This area extends all the way east, but south of Shaker Heights, up to Lee Road. There are a lot of un-patrolled railroad tracks that allow gangs and drug deals to take place in seclusion. 3. North-East side of Cleveland, anything east/north of Unversity Circle, all the way up until the Euclid city lines is more bad stuff. Anything North of Euclid, all the way north to Lakeshore between E. 55th and E. 185th is the segment I am referring to. Eddy Road, Shaw Road, E. 155th, Superior, and St. Claire. 4. The CMHA site near the airport nestled inbetween I-71, Rocky River Dr., I-480, and Puritas. A very fucked up area if you ask me.. it's surrounded by fairly decent suburbs and neighborhoods on all sides. Correct me if I'm wrong, but these are the results of a major study.. you could also say that Akron, Lorain and Elyria have their bad areas, and maybe, just maybe parts of Willowick and/or Barberton (Meth labs). Otherwise, there aren't any major problem areas in NE Ohio to my knowledge.

I think it's a LOT safer and better than any other subsidized living in the entire NE Ohio region. They are doing a fantastic job with this area. You need to be weary of the remaining public housing next to it, although most of its already torn down or enroute to be demolished and re-built. Since it's not CMHA, you do have to pay to live here, and we're not talking about pennies, but rather 130k per house. Not a bad area, especially if the project continues to grow outwards.

Rockefeller Park, as beautiful as it is, lacks the typical bike-rider or jogger. Why? Because unfortunately, this is a very dangerous area. The parkway itself is not the problem. All along both sides of it is the problem - from I-90 all the way to University Circle, we're talking about some of the worst problems in the city, especially, and I stress this, the EASTERN side near East Boulevard, Eddy Road, and almost the entire segment of Superior and St. Claire, beyond E. 55th, all the way into East Cleveland. If you think that E. 73rd and St. Claire is bad, dabble over to St. Claire and E. 100, it's much worse. And the worst would be the intersection of Eddy and Hayden, near Superior and Euclid's crossing. No street lights at a 5-way crossing, abandoned houses, abandoned warehouses, large railroad bridges, etc.. I have documented homicides in the city over the last year and this is becoming the hot spot for murder as well as drug related violence. Don't forget, neighborhoods change, and they change fast! Tremont. Today vs. 10 years ago. Just for the record, the big changes taking place right now will be the E. 105th-E. 115th area, on the borders of CWRU/Veterans Hospital. What needs to be addressed are the CMHA highrises. Wade Apartments and the Mt. Sinia site.. 20 story public housing is a major disaster. Just think about it, how difficult it is to bust a drug deal in a highrise??? That's why we'll never see CMHA build another highrise again. These sites need to re-locate the tenants to the up and coming area near Woodland-Cedar between E. 30-E. 65th and convert these into private housing or just tear the son of a bitches down. I have been inside the Wade Apartments and feared my life like never before. 2 elevators, 1 of which was broken, and the other took 15, yes 15 minutes to reach the lobby. I had to go to floor 7 and it stopped on every floor going up. People getting on at floor 2 and getting off at floor 3. The entire complex has fenced in balconies, to prevent a lot of things from happening. Tell me another highrise with such a thing? Anyways, these sites are overlooking Rockefeller Park and are lined up and down E. 105, Mt. Sinai, Hough, and Wade Park Dr., with low-rise apartments and more CMHA. A lot of the litter found along E. 105th St. falls down the hill and ends up in the beautiful Rockefeller Park. Ansel-E. 105th (the same street) is the true borderline for this area's good side and bad side. You will notice that Rockefeller Park goes right thru it, and the end result is that you have a nice park dipped below a majorly troubled area of Cleveland.

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KTM, I find your message very interesting! Please explain further, which specific intersection you are talking about??? Thank you!

this is the best cleveland photo thread in at least 6 months.. nice job mr. photographer! :clap:

What's the problem w/ this concept? That it's different and un-like most anything we've seen? Or that it's located on the "wrong" street? I think that anything that has this many people discussing it is an automatic sign of extended interest, making it a success. Anyways, now I have to re-think of what AT Tower in Cleveland is called, if this is supposed to be "ugly"..

anyone notice that i made #14 and #15 look like highrises, when in reality they are not more than 4-5 stories each??? Well, it was a nice thought..

You are probably guessing correct, as this name definately rings a bell. It's one of those small properties I never cared to look at and so now when it gets thrashed, it's hard to picture what used to be there.

Well 2 properties are for sale next to Peterson Nuts thru Colliers and Chartwell, respectively. Before I even brought the topic up, the broker at Chartwell told me his property is next to the former Peterson Nuts site where they are making a parking lot for Jacob's Field. Yes, there is an ordnance, but now the question is, how long may this site remain a parking lot before they must re-develop it. I know there's a short grace period (<1 year?). Oh, and the property for sale over there is VERY cheap.. The site next to the lot (it's a 2-story building and 20 surface spots) is for sale at around 1.2 million. I thought prime land next to a major stadium would be worth a lot more than that.. I mean sqft $ price is high compared to the rest of the city, but not nearly as high as it "should be", seeing as this should already be fully developed.

To add to all the demolitions taking place, Peterson Nut's was recently torn down to make way for a PARKING LOT. I spoke with the broker for the property and he says the owner's pulled all the strings in the books to tear the building down and create a parking lot out of it. Not sure if he is correct or not, but I know there's an ordnance. Anyways, another demolition has taken place!! This time it's between E. 12th-E. 13th @ Payne DIRECTLY behind the Greyhound Station. It used to be an eatery that won an award in 1991 for best pizza.. well that's all that was remaining when I drove by was a sign saying that. If I remember clearly, this used to be a 1-story restaurant (pizza house) that was pretty damn ugly. There is now a large, continuous parking lot on both sides of the former building. I am guessing this may have to do with the future development to take place here (for Greyhound) or the Avenue District.

this will be a beautiful masterpiece when all is said and done. anyone who thinks this is ugly.. you have a lot to learn..

well put KJP!

Your pictures only add to the love I have for this emerging neighborhood.. I like it more than Tremont and it's slowly catching up to OC..

this segment of midtown can not go from nothing to everything. we're talking about a long transition over many years.. perhaps none of us will be alive when the midtown truly becomes what we hoped it to be here and now. i do picture one day downtown and university circle continuously connected as one major city, but that will take a long time and this is just the BEGINNING of the ride imo.

nothing being developed in MidTown is suburban except for the new industrial site planned near E. 65th on Euclid. Everything else is an upgrade of already urban sites and/or new development keeping the "urban" tradition.. no the soccer dome is not urban, but that's part of a college campus. The hotel is not either, but that's an old hotel being renovated by a new owner. However, #14 and #15 both provide what MidTown is looking for: dense low- to mid-rise office buildings with potential ground-level retail. #12 and #13 land parcels show potential since any structure built would resemble #14 or #15. The part of MidTown between E55-E75 is extremely run-down and lacking any business presence thereof.. the Pierre's Ice Cream headquarters and the other industrial sites are indeed upsetting to hopes of seeing an urban MidTown. But don't look at that, rather, look at the Quadrangle and Fairfax neighborhoods for short-term growth rate.