biker16

It doesn't, anymore than the failure of downtown retail over the last 60 years. Knowing what we know today why did we place the redline where it is today? You can never predict the future. The anchor is I 271, it isn't gong any where and you can only build this type of density of retail and residential around interstates, Parmatown and severance were planned and built before the importance of the interstates was understood. Look, f you expect to only connect rail to areas that re guaranteed to last 50 years or more you should give up on rail expansion. You cannot expect traits growth without going where the people are, the issue today is that we stopped expanding the system to where the people were going.

the density of East gate. note the number of high-rises

BTW travel time estimates for this route are 35 mins from beachwood to downtown with Signal preemption on shaker Blvd, add 3 mins without. 18mins from shaker Square to Beachwood Place. more about the density around beachwood place.

They take the 32 bus? Or the 94? I consider zero-transfer rides to suburbia are a luxury. I am more interested in expanding rail in areas that have the need and history of accepting and embracing transit and density, and letting development build up around them in places that are ripe for it. Not to areas whose raison d'etre is pretty much to escape transit and density. My fellow urban advocate, we have to think differently about these things. coverage does not Equal quality service. do you know the Frequency of the 32 or the 94? ( hourly for the 94 and peak half-hourly for the 32) I don't think it is acceptable to take 2 hours and 3 buses to get to work. when our Region has such major imbalances in jobs and people something must be done to resolve it. To put it bluntly the jobs that people in the city needs are in the suburbs because the customers are in the suburbs. this route will not induce sprawl but help contain sprawl, another fact is that lower income people fleeing the city are moving to areas like the golden gate area, they need higher Quality transit. and eventual extension down I-271 to East gate will help improve service there. I gave a presentaion on Multi-destinaion transit system design you should View it here. http://www.clevelandstreetcar.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/sustanable-development-presentation.pdf 17% of the county works in 1% of the area. It can't be cost effective to shuffle people around from suburb to suburb. Is it more cost effective to make everyone go through downtown to transfer? The issue with the Grid is that you need frequency to make it work. frequency is expensive, and adds cost, that doesn't mean it would not work here, it's just we have to retrain riders to begin to view transfers as a positive not a negative.

I think you are over thinking this. First: route travels downtown to beachwood place, but don't ignore the fact that it also travels from Shaker Square to Beachwood place, and all points in-between, including some very affluent areas of Shaker Heights where people use the train to go downtown may be more willing to use it to shop as well. Second: Beachwood Place is surrounded by other trip generators like high density housing, offices and additional retail like legacy village. Third: it not like shopping is the only reason people go to the mall, there are 3 reasons people travel Leisure Business shopping Trips from beachwood to shaker square, would also be possible. Again downtown is the end point, and not always the destination. good transit can be more than Commuter Transit. in other countries premium transit to malls is very popular. it generates more than Home to work transit trips. Between Downtown and shaker Square is 6.5 miles of Afflent high value residential development, with 17 stops in-between and 5.3 miles between shaker Square and downtown Cleveland with only 7 Stops in between. Like I said before Transit is more than shopping it is about workers, and Leisure too. The beachwood place Stop would be good Location for a car sharing station, too.

I'm more curious about the street car that showed up at 1:30!!! Note: While that high rise would be nice I don't see it happening soon. 515 Euclid should be built on before anything. I agree, there is no doubt that 515 should come first, but My plan would have a transformation Effect on the area. The vision was to break the building up. placing parking below the building, and the green-space. the simple concept was to resotre the street Grid disturbed by the super block.

Exactly, light wells would have to be very large to provide light to the lower levels of a building this large and this tall. the measurements are accurate within 10 feet. the garage is massive. The may company building is made up of 3 buildings the original building 2025 Ontario from the early 1900s, the 1930s building, and the garage added in the 1940s or so. The adding a .5 acres of green space, opens up the megablock between prospect and Euclid. The dissecting of the 1930s building was done with the realization that the building has two elevator banks, one on Euclid and prospect dividing the building maintains those elevator banks while potentially making redevelopment of the 1930s building easier. yep

It not about the mall it about the density of the residential around the mall, its about the access to Downtown from Beachwood by car vs this potential transit connection. It is about the Density of jobs entry level jobs and the access to those jobs by inner city residents. It is about the logical extension of this line further north tomorrow the Golden Gate area down I 271 where the population density is even greater than around Beachwood place and the presence of hillcrest hospital as a major employer. Going to BM is about attracting riders to transit for more trips than going to work, and extension to golden gate would induce mere trip between Beachwood and Mayfield Heights, which benefits both communities and the region.

did anyone see this yet http://www.cleveland.com/naymik/index.ssf/2013/08/rtas_waterfront_line_is_slow_t.html RTA's Waterfront Line is slow to attract new passengers: "Hey, Taxpayer! with Mark Naymik" (Video) It bull#$_ but someone needs to explian why dead ending the green and blue lines at the muni lot makes sense.

Which is why if one cares about this stuff, as most UOers obviously do, we really need to get out and actively support Ed FitzGerald for gov this coming year. We need to make sure he is informed about this issue first. Dems are better but they are not always for progressive transportation choices. So buyer beware.

It's a qualitative, not a quantitative discussion. So you mean it based upon your opinion not facts? Interesting, So all people who cannot drive due to wealth health or age deserve to be segregated? So the fact that people lack the financial wherewithal to own a car means they choose to be segregated? You saying most people is meaningless without data to support it. I wish what you said were true, because government policies that incentivize sprawl have nothing to do with "free society". this road is perfect example of this. how can you complain bout government waste, then this project represents social engineering at it's best. If it is Worth building why doesn't the private sector build it? Free society? Charge a 50 cent toll and see how many people still want this project.

I'm not against it. I just suspect the demand is overrated on these pages. Highly so. Industry, at least the kind that doesn't get so many tax abatements it's a wash benefit wise, needs to be rather carefully located vis a vis residential. Even in medium density. It's often noisy and occasionally smelly. As far as residential/retail is concerned, I'm pretty certain that trying to plan one from scratch in an area that's tanked badly is likely doomed to failure, and at best draws people from existing similar areas that get overrun by blight. So basically, it's being shuffled around. It's far more effective to expand existing such areas, but that doesn't require government action so it's not as popular. I'm extremely skeptical about planned "mixed income" neighborhoods. They become "mixed values", and lots of values sets don't mix well. Various neighborhoods developed because of people's similarities, including similar values. I see you have spent decades studying this issue, how Can you explain how this country survives it being multi-cultural and All? how do you explain the enclaves of "mixed values" through out this city, county, state and country? Where did you get your Degree in social science? Wikipedia? Rush Limbaugh? David Duke? About three decades, actually, on and off. Actually, the nation not only survives but thrives on being "multi cultural" through enclaves and through breathing space. I mean multi cultural in the strictly defined sense (different cultures), not in the PC sense that all are inherently equal and had equivalent roles in the development of our mass culture. It's because America is a popular culture, perhaps the first, that this dual development happened. Ironically, what really kicked it into gear was the suburbs. Dense cities were typically ethnically segregated. so you must have a doctorate by Now, right? how do You Explain My neighborhood? Arab on my left, Appalachian White on my right and myself, black American in the middle?. Please Stop, you have NO data to back what you say up. If you were to use a more modern and more Accurate Term for segregation is that it is segregation based on wealth not Race or even culture. you are just making your self look obtuse and dense.

Skylift why would 200 million be better spent on this project as opposed to Streetcar/urban circulator? there is a track record of streetcars attracting development, over 3 billion in protland but Nothing close to that amount has been generated by a Cable Tram.

I'm not against it. I just suspect the demand is overrated on these pages. Highly so. Industry, at least the kind that doesn't get so many tax abatements it's a wash benefit wise, needs to be rather carefully located vis a vis residential. Even in medium density. It's often noisy and occasionally smelly. As far as residential/retail is concerned, I'm pretty certain that trying to plan one from scratch in an area that's tanked badly is likely doomed to failure, and at best draws people from existing similar areas that get overrun by blight. So basically, it's being shuffled around. It's far more effective to expand existing such areas, but that doesn't require government action so it's not as popular. I'm extremely skeptical about planned "mixed income" neighborhoods. They become "mixed values", and lots of values sets don't mix well. Various neighborhoods developed because of people's similarities, including similar values. I see you have spent decades studying this issue, how Can you explain how this country survives it being multi-cultural and All? how do you explain the enclaves of "mixed values" through out this city, county, state and country? Where did you get your Degree in social science? Wikipedia? Rush Limbaugh? David Duke?

:?

Interesting but the vast majority of resident on Roosevelt Island use the subway to commute not the tramway.

I think the proposed pedestrian bridge is a far better solution, I understand it's difficult because of the need for permanent clearance for the ships...but certainly less difficult than a tram. I don't think there is a pedestrian bridge to connect the east and west bank of the flats. Also, I believe the proposed link to Wendy park used the existing lift bridge by the salt mines. If you had 200 Million dollars to spend, you could build 4 pedestrian lift bridges. and pedestrian bridge from the flats to the stadium. I do have imagination, but the idea that this will encourage development, or resurrect the dead is false. there are issues with connectivity but having a link from the flats to the Lakefront that can only move <750 person per hour. completely inadequate for events at the lakefront or in the flats. at least if they use the gondolas pictured Above. If you want more capacity like in Portland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram prepare to spend a lot of money. Portland aerial tram was 400% over budget and ended up costing 57 million dollars to travel 1Km with only 2 stations and 3 towers. using 78 passenger cars to put it bluntly either this guy is super naïve or intentionally misleading the public on what this is. 200 million dollar tourist trap? as to whether this is " transportation" their website states: Transporting people The fastest-growing technology in moving people from place to place. Here in Cleveland, we'll be able to solve parking issues and increase access to our waterfront and parks. SkyLift will amplify Cleveland's ability to provide outstanding public transportation to its community. Public access to various waterfront amenities is currently limited and congested. SkyLift would boost accessibility and use, allowing the public to enjoy the many diverse offerings of the coast without having to worry about the logistics of getting there. so yes this should go in the transportation section there is NO development involved with this project. Portland has a Tram system which as I explained is completely different than a Gondola System. Trams transports between 2 fixed points while a Gondola operates on a loop and can have multiple stations. Also, to your point about the capacity that isn't accurate either; while Telluride's Gondola is only currently set up for around 500 persons per hour it has the capacity for 1200 pph. See the "Moving People Around" section" here, also more info about their set up. Their system was built by CTEC, which is a competitor of Leitner-Poma, in 1996 so the design specs may be different and have likely improved. Having said all of that, this could still end up as a lemon. But at this stage I don't think it is justified to dismiss it as un-workable. I would say there are a good number of variables that we do not know, and until more information is released, or there is a public forum, we likely won't know. There is a giant difference between an Arial Tram and a Gondola though, so make sure you are citing the correct system. the site you cited uses much larger Gondolas than what is being proposed. My point being they are showing a demo of a gondola type that is woefully inadequate for what they are proposing 200 million on this?

imminent domain would be helpful here.

I do have imagination, but the idea that this will encourage development, or resurrect the dead is false. there are issues with connectivity but having a link from the flats to the Lakefront that can only move <750 person per hour. completely inadequate for events at the lakefront or in the flats. at least if they use the gondolas pictured Above. If you want more capacity like in Portland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portland_Aerial_Tram prepare to spend a lot of money. Portland aerial tram was 400% over budget and ended up costing 57 million dollars to travel 1Km with only 2 stations and 3 towers. using 78 passenger cars to put it bluntly either this guy is super naïve or intentionally misleading the public on what this is. 200 million dollar tourist trap? as to whether this is " transportation" their website states: Transporting people The fastest-growing technology in moving people from place to place. Here in Cleveland, we'll be able to solve parking issues and increase access to our waterfront and parks. SkyLift will amplify Cleveland's ability to provide outstanding public transportation to its community. Public access to various waterfront amenities is currently limited and congested. SkyLift would boost accessibility and use, allowing the public to enjoy the many diverse offerings of the coast without having to worry about the logistics of getting there. so yes this should go in the transportation section there is NO development involved with this project.

shouldn't this be in the transportation section? since we don't have a boondoggle/waste of time section on the forum yet.

maybe we should remove that elevated freeway?

don't be so glum A blanket .25% increase in sales tax in 17 Northeast Ohio counties would raise 118 million per year (based on 2011 tax records) add GCRTA contribution of .15% you 145 million in revenue. The 50% match is standard in New starts projects like this one would be, that would include all capital costs. look to Portland and look to Charlotte light Rail projects.

I like it the Feds should pick 50% of the total capital cost, using every other civilized state as a mode the. State of Ohio should pick up 25% and the rest should be local. With CMAQ, and other NOACA grants possibly picking up the rest. A couple of thoughts: RTA should spinoff the rail system as part of a regional rail authority. RTA should cede 15% or 15 cents of its sales tax revenue to this new authority. Cuyahoga county should seek a $.25 sales tax increase dedicated to this regional rail authority. Collar counties $.25-.5 sales tax.

This thread is going all speculation, but I'd have to ask, if he's saying it's Air Conditioning or a wheelchair lift issues, how can those things be directly related to passenger behavior? I don't understand how that could be the case, based on what you just wrote. Passengers do not control the A/C (or vents) nor do they control the wheelchair lifts. If you said the "seats were damaged", or "windows broken", then I would understand. Be careful he may post a map or a picture to prove his point.