biker16

the intersections which would have performed the primary function of traffic calming, were removed by ODOT 3 years ago, due to "congestion" the opposition to this project are NIMBY. the question is how much more traffic will move to I90 after the opening of the second inner belt bridge opens and how much traffic will be able to divert to I90. The new bridge will eliminate the bottleneck that is the ramp from I90 west to the central artery. in a few years there will be Two lanes from I90 west onto the bridge and 3 lanes from I71 onto the bridge, with no merge between I90 and I71. Following the theory of Induced Traffic, means that slowing the Shoreway down could further reduce Traffic on the Shore way, making more people detour to I90 instead. either way the shore way as configured is not needed, according to NOACA the Shore way only carries 5000-10,000 more traffic than Chester which is a boulevard, that is 15% to 30% more than the Freeway, and it has ~15 stop lights between UC and downtown, the nrw shore way would have NO stop lights. ODOT congestion estimates are notoriously Questionable.

The point is ODOT approved the entire plan, they scored it very high under the previous scoring system. Now we have a new administration and the Scoring system changed, now it is scored poorly. There were promises made, and they are not being kept. Cleveland is the worse city for Access to the water front. this plan by slowing the shoreway down helps to remove the biggest obstacle to accessing the lakefront. As a biker I have concerns about the way the Cycling community is approaching this, they lament the faxt that the Bike lane is pushed back to phase 3, while ignoring the facts that once the road is converted to a boulevard the road will be accessible to Cyclist to ride legally in the street. I think once the Conversion is complete trafffic will be reduced enough to convert a lane into a multipurpose trail much like what was done to the Detroit/Superior bridge. this would be he most cost effective way to make it a reality, because of ODOTs inflexible rules, It dramtically increases the cost to add a multipurpose lane, so much so it would be better to seek funding for it from other sources that would be less rigid in their interpretation of laws. The general problem with this development and people in general, are that the original passion for an issue which is used to bring about change are short lived while the opponents to such change have time to build opposition to any change, and as the original benefits fade from memory, the opponents gain momentum. It is so hard to maintain support for change especially if the change takes so long to come about. In class My professor talks about the temporal mismatch between Economic development and politics, it some times takes and act of God to bring about the change People say they want but their attention spans do not allow for. On the 15th of this month they are organizing a caravan to Columbus to attend the ODOT meeting, the caravan leaves at 7 am from the parking lot behind the Capitol theater. ODOTs behavior in this issue, the streetscape improvements on clfton, the interbelt bridge, etc, has to be stopped, they really don't care about issue important to the residents of cities, only care about traffic speed and nothing else. no other part of state government is doing so much to hold ohio back, they must be stopped

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2011/11/with_apartments_full_developer.html

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/18/travel/pay-per-mile-transportation/index.html

I was just taken back to the Debacle with the Stanley building and all the disinformation about the intentions of the New buyer and who they were. either way there is a marked difference in valuation of lots by the couty and the prices they usually sell for once parties become interested in redevelopment.

the port dis use eminent Domain to secure land for the FEB project. http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/03/flats_land_seizure_debated_in.html

I mean that lot owners have a tendency to bid up the price of the land once developers become interested in the property. these same owners will often petition the county to lower the appraised property values of parking lots, to lower their tax burden. the honest truth is that if properties like the the lot on public square were appraised at valued close to that of what could be built there, it would force the lot owners to develop something to make the land generate more revenue. It is common for large developers to act as silent partners and form shell corporations to hide their true intentions for the property to not give the seller any leverage over the property. for the FEB, the port acted as a public authority to secure property for the devloper, an (i think) used eminent domain to secure land from a stubborn land owner. Using RTA keeps the City's hands clean because both the port and RTA are Quasi public organizations that are more resistant to political interference, they can operate like ODOT, and whether opposition better than politicians can. My guess is yes the slide listed slots for 60ft buses, consider all East side buses will terminate there. ALL OF THEM. the big guy in the sweatsuit, Calabreese (SP?) said he was in conversation with the city or FOUR days about how to get the buses of the square, He said it is impossible , ALL buses must go thru the Square, regardless of the West side transit center, they must go thru the Square. he speculated about a BUS ONLY lane thru the Square, he said a 3 lane road would be more than adequate to handle bus Traffic. If we add all of this together Forest city aquiring the site in secret Group plan commission redesign of public square. Mayor Jackson support the closing of the entire square The sponsorship of the West side transit center by both WHD and DCA. there seems to be a plan in the works to over come all obstacles to the redesign of the square with honey for all parties involved.

I mean that lot owners have a tendency to bid up the price of the land once developers become interested in the property. these same owners will often petition the county to lower the appraised property values of parking lots, to lower their tax burden. the honest truth is that if properties like the the lot on public square were appraised at valued close to that of what could be built there, it would force the lot owners to develop something to make the land generate more revenue. It is common for large developers to act as silent partners and form shell corporations to hide their true intentions for the property to not give the seller any leverage over the property. for the FEB, the port acted as a public authority to secure property for the devloper, an (i think) used eminent domain to secure land from a stubborn land owner. Using RTA keeps the City's hands clean because both the port and RTA are Quasi public organizations that are more resistant to political interference, they can operate like ODOT, and whether opposition better than politicians can. My guess is yes the slide listed slots for 60ft buses, consider all East side buses will terminate there. ALL OF THEM. the big guy in the sweatsuit, Calabreese (SP?) said he was in conversation with the city or FOUR days about how to get the buses of the square, He said it is impossible , ALL buses must go thru the Square, regardless of the West side transit center, they must go thru the Square. he speculated about a BUS ONLY lane thru the Square, he said a 3 lane road would be more than adequate to handle bus Traffic. If we add all of this together Forest city aquiring the site in secret Group plan commission redesign of public square. Mayor Jackson support the closing of the entire square The sponsorship of the West side transit center by both WHD and DCA. there seems to be a plan in the works to over come all obstacles to the redesign of the square with honey for all parties involved.

Scav, if somehow we could pull this off, I'd be dancing in the streets... Only in our dreams... I love for this too happen but I just can't see the density or diversity of use to support a subway loop.

I was also there, the specs weree for 100 unit of housing. the design was pretty much a blank slate, the Warehouse district and Downtwn cleveland Alliance, brought the project to RTA DCA also paid for the consultant. much like the Westshore commuter Rail study RTA is taking a passive role and letting the community come to them, not investing much time and effort on project until considerable community demand warrants their involvement. Not wanting to be burned again by changing tides of local politics, it seems this is there new model. the issues with development in downtown are understood by DCA, warehouse district and RTA. in order for development of the parking lots to be profitable the land must be aquired and assembled at lower than market rates, in order for that to work eminent domain may be required, if not the acquisition cost would drive of the costs of the devleopment (remember Stark was planning 5-10 story buildings not the 3-4 story building that would be marketable in the Warehouse district.) The basic issue is the lots are valued too high to attract development that would be profitable in Cleveland. Maybe the threat of imminent Domain will facilitate the sale of lots at rates closer to what the county values the land. I think a similar situation to what the port did for the flat east bank., the RTA could do for the the Warehouse district.

my Idea of a Tram/lighter rail loop in downtown Cleveland. loop line in green healthline in blue connector to existing rail in yellow. My goal is to connect our disparate downtown together and to encourage redevelopment of the acres of parking lots that litter downtown. the route is designed to serve as a walking supplement to downtown residents, workers, students, and tourists. go beyond simple commuter service and become the the day to day service to allow people downtown to get riad of their cars, and feed more people into the rest of the transit system. Using these I have doubts that it would even be possible to run the current blue line trains in a road right of way. they may be too big, too heavy and wide to meet the needs of a Tram in downtown.

If you replaced the RedLine with a subway from UC to Dowtown you may have something, if you want to simply add to the existing Redline you will struggle to attack enough riders to sustain the system. I think We need more developers like Ari, I would hate to have all of our eggs in one basket again. I would love to see RTA buy the line and expand it to lake county. I a perfect world you would want It electrified all the way out to lake county, the issue with that of course is the expense of dedicated ROW and in the instance of the redline extension it is the costs of adding 14 bridges for that new line. RTa would be better off hedging and look to purchase either Dual mode Diesel/electric trains and/or Trans that can operate on battery power for short periods of time to allow Freight to cross RTA right of ways. short and medium term I see not other way to start inter county commuter rial without using FRA compatible Diesel trains to reach out of county riders to feed TOD development in Cuyahoga county. battery optional trains could be useful in crossing frieghtlines at grade without building bridges. the focus has to be on building transit friendly environments, growing them and using their growth to encourage development of commuter rail to the surrounding areas.

My Idea for a Tram link to university Circle via Shaker Square. You would have the option to run Blue and/or Green line service direct to university Circle during rush hour, creating a one Seat ride from the southwest suburbs into UC. all other times it could be either a 12 minute loop from University circle to shaker Square.(in Red) with a follow on loop that Travels for university Circle Redline to the front doors of both UH and CC. or a combined route going from Shaker Square to UH and CC. of course demand would determine the capacity of the tram used. imagine the potential for these routes if and when Commuter rail routes from the East, west and Southwest.

I agree we cannot serve these radial areas, there are not enough resources in the world to properly service those dispersed areas. I think in situations like the chagrin highlands and independence you need the business located there to take the initiative to get their people to transit, not to have transit come to them. I think the future has to begin by improving service within those areas best serviced by transit, and have reasonable growth potential and/or better quality transit has the potential to spur development.

The Decline of downtown has hurt transit in this region because, All of our eggs were in one basket. UC is TOD. the goal of running everything into downtown must be rethought, maybe we should make UC and even West 25th market square secondary transfer points. i thingk we lot sight of the purpose of high volume transit, it is designed to be primarily a point to point transport , to take people from one another to another Area, not from their doorstep to their place of work or business. it really doesn't matter where they come from where its TOD or a park and Ride lot, it matter that once they begin their trip on transit they can go where they want to go. focusing on diversifying transit circulation so we are better able to serve trips other than commuting. In areas like downtown and UC, Trams could be used to circulate between the red line and health line to where they work live and play. TO me Light rail whoich should be called medium rail, is a complex architecture and is NOT a replacement for street Cars. Tram rail can be lighter duty and far less expensive to install and maintain because the trains are lighter and slower. this is a Cross section of a U type Tram Rail. vs the difference is the depth of the rail. one is only 72mm vs the other at 154mm. both are made by arcelor-mittal, Ironic huh. http://www.arcelormittal.com/rails+specialsections/en/tram-rails.html how can we better connect our vibrant neighbors together? Can you explain your "decline" of downtown comment? the decline as downtown Cleveland as a center of job growth in the region. the share of all jobs in Cleveland or north east ohio, in downtown Cleveland has declined. while downtown has shrunk University Circle has grown. the reality is of our region's major job centers. These areas are impossible to serve effectively with transit to be competitive with Automobile travel. Radial employment centers. Beachwood Independence North Olmsted While downtown, and UC are favorable to being serviced by transit. there are 2 things going on in Downtown Cleveland 1) It is transforming from a single function employment center to a more divere, residential, entertainment and tourist area. 2) It is losing importance as a employment center, as the regions spreads out and the businesses decide to relocate, and traditional businesses decline. don't get me wrong Downtown is the largest employment center in the state, and UC is close behind, the reality today is it is less important to regional employment (commuting) than it was 25 years ago. Since RTA has been so focused on downtown it may have missed the opportunity to take advantage of employment growth of University circle, and take advantage of residential growth in downtown Cleveland.

both west prospect and west Huron are actually Bridges over Tower City. RTA has stationed Buses on prospect before, the issue that happens is the buses damage the pavement and can help create leaks in tower city. The damage to the pavement was quite significant back in the late 90s when buses were back there. I see the long term solution may be to place a Transit center between the Warehouse and public square, as was proposed a few months back. It would be interesting to if we could replace the garages beneath towercity,north of the transit lines, with a direct at/near grade connection to Red/green/blue line platforms.

it was the same consultant for the west shore. his reason were simple there isn't enough riders to support the extension. Chagrin highlands is extremely unfriendly to transit. it is a 10 minute walk for Harvard to the door at Eaton Corp's new HQ. now if this was part of a larger commuter rail link to Solon then things would change. the second source was an engineer from RTA. She said that about the redline extension.

Healthline is blue loop is green connection to waterfront line is yellow.

3.2billion 40-90 million 15-40 million 15-25 million this is the cost per mile for subways light rail Tramways BRT there is no corridor in Cleveland that could sufficiently support a subway line. the beauty of streetcars/trams is that they use existing ROWs that are where people are the the Streets. every time we develop a new rail ROW it gets futher and futher form the streets. the Red Line is a perfect example of this. heavy rail in dedicated ROW are great for speed but not so great for convenience. You need to understand that Speed is not everything. here are couple of interesting thoughts on speed vs spontaneity streetcars and spontaneity is speed obsolete? are slow streetcars are better than rapid transit Dual hub is outdated and no longer Represents the place Downtown is today or will be in the future. downtown has lost tens of thousands of workers and has gained thousands of new residents. our future seems better tied to residential development and tourism than to the tradistiona commuter base transit of the past. My little tram loop conects all major districts together. If Trams augment walking, they will automatically allow residents in the avenue district to better access dining in the warehouse district, and gateway district. even though they could walk, the trams allow them to walk further they could normally, this is even more important because of our harsh winters. people would be more than willing to wait and take the tram in the winter than in the summer. You are 100% correct about the permanency of rail, I placed the line where there is room for development, East 12th, prospect, West 6th. the issue with placing the subway where you want it is it missed East forth, the Medical mart, city hall, the warehouse district. with the Tram you have spontaneity, or the ability for people to move where they want to when they want to without planning ahead. this is type of transit that allows people to go without cars. I think the speed of the healthline is less of a problem than you think, crowding and the bunching up of buses are more of an issue. I would propse first terminating the line at the little Italy station, not windermere. I would extend the BRT further out Euclid (where?) and have it terminate at university circle station, basically forcing those heading to downtown in between windermere and UC to use the Redline. I would like to RTA move from BRT to Trams from downtown to Little Italy station. I would replace the current 47 seat buses with 70 seat low floor trams. shortening the line and increasing the capascity should help with congestion, in addition you could run express service between Cleveland Clinic and CSU. Why trams and not the current light rail trains? 1:the blue line trains are not ADA compliant, the HL buses and a Tram would be ADA compliant 2: the turning radius of the Blue and Greenline trains are not sufficient for the HL, it could force some major changes to the line, and likely kill the project before it starts 3: the needed construction techniques for a lightRail line would add alot of costs to the project, light rail REQUIRES 18-19in of below grade work for it's rails, a Tram using lr55 rails would only need 8 inches per rail. the cantenary system would be more expensive than the lighter duty grade wireing needed for tram system. both add costs to the project and make it easier to kill. 4: Blue line and green line train were never designed to be used this way. with their exposed trucks, and immense size, they would become an obstruction in traffic. and in some cases a hazard to pedestrians. Of course if you can replace the blue and green line trains with a Tram, you gain economies of scale and make all shaker rapid stops ADA compliant.

tracks on prospect are EXACTLY 4 floors above the Red/blue/green line tracks, it would take one elevator ride from the station concourse to the skylight level Exit to prospect, where the Trams would be waiting. My loop would put 95% of major downtown attraction within 1/4 mile or a ten minute walk of this line or the health line, I drove this loop after class yesterday at 6pm, it took me 10 minutes to drive clockwise. It would be located to hopefully spur development in warehouse district, Avenue district, theater district and gateway district. connecting them all to the Convention center, Casino, Tower City, Stephanie Tubbs Jones TC and CSU. All while using Road Right of ways, that are under utilized from a vehicle perspective (minus Chester) The loop is roughly 2.5-3 miles, 12 stops spaced 1/4 mile apart, should be able to complete the loop in about 20 minutes. If we could connect the trams to the waterfront line not for route purposes but for to connect it to the rest of the network maintenance and depot needs, you save money. if you could connect the tram line to the WF line in the flats, not at the end of the WF line you could save money. If possible, ( I don't know the Grade % of the hill) from the intersection of Main and west 10th, come out of the rail right of way, onto main ave, up the hill onto west 9th, connect with the Loop line on St-Clair. using existing road ROWs to elminate the costs of building a rather complex bridge to connect the WF line to the rest of the city on the bluff.

I am going to challenge you guys on this Huron Tunnel Idea, why detour away from where your riders are? what do you gain? speed? speed to go where? from playhouse square to tower city in 5 minutes less than doing so on the surface. with the additional burden of having riders switch modes in from Subway to bus to get to their final destination. its not worth it. I Favor the establishment of a Tram line loop in downtown Cleveland. I cannot See green or blue line LRVs operating in a Road ROW, their turning radius, and width would make them too unwieldy to be placed at grade running with street traffic. We could replace them with 8 foot wide and 90ft long Tram Car that could carry 70 people, this could eventually replace the buses used on the healthline, it would be fully compatible the existing stations, but would offer 20 extra seats and room for an additional 30 standees. If you replace the Current light rail fleet with Street capable Light rail vehicle (trams) that would be 100% low floor and ADA compliant at all current Blue and Green line stations you gian economies of scale with a fleet of 50-60 trams, that could be easily expanded to ourside of original Rail right of ways. By Using new Technology We can lower the construction costs. vs and LR55 Rails that are much cheaper to install. vs conventional Rail. most importantly It only requires a trench 8 in deep by 16 inches wide to install, vs the traditional method digging a 2 foot deep trench the width of the road lane, pouring a 8 inch thick concrete pad the width of the road and securing the Rails to the pad, filling in the road way with concreat of asphalt. vs the issue with the Healthline is not in downtown it is in midtown and past UC. the smart thing to do is to add direct express service during peak periods, eliminating all stops between CSU and Cleveland Clinic. to address t

I attended the meeting in Lakewood last night the turnout was light only about 15 people, most were from Lorain county. couple things that stood out. FTA funding for this project is contingent primarily on Lorain county, reestablishing transit service, finding a secure funding source for transit and addressing the land use issues. Going to this meeting made me appreciate how good we have it in Cuyahoga county. The feedback from Lakewood officials has been positive, Tom Bullock (councilman Ward 3?) sat in on the meeting and expressed his and the mayors support for the project. They are considering dual mode Diesel/electric trains, but as of now there are no trains that meet FRA standards for mixed use with freight trains, although that may change in the next 5-10 years. Got some info from the Consultant on the blue line extension, he believes it will end up being buses to both Randall park mall and to the Chagrin highlands, not Rail. Talked an RTA Representative about the Redline extension and Clifton Blvd project. it was said the Clifton project was awarded 3 million, but is short of the 5 million needed for the project. Red line, was assumed to be BRT only with the healthline possibly being split at University circle and second line from UC to Downtown Euclid.

KJP the track gauge does not change, what does change is the method of installation of the track into the Road bed, It is much more straight forward for road builder to install than the trandional Rail. these track will support trams that weigh <40 tons, and have 8 sets of wheels and never go over 35mph., not for freight trains that weigh 125 tons have 4 pairs of wheels., and can go 80 mph. this what I mean by overbuilding for the intended use. I would never replace RTA right of rails with U type Tram rail it doesn't make any sense. but for streetcar/ trams U type rail make all the sense in the world. and the trams Can easily transition to traditional rail when needed. this means we don't need to dig any deeper to install tram rail than would be need to install a concrete pad for A BRT. BTW Traditional Tram Rail look like this. http://www.trampower.co.uk/track.html http://www.lr55-rail-road-system.co.uk/testing2.htm Why I don't think a tunnel is needed? because Tower city does not have the space. and if it did it would be better used for Additional heavy or light rail traffic. It should not inconvenience any rider to have to walk to the surface to prospect or the front of tower city to catch the loop. you would also be taking the Train away from more rider dense areas like Public Square and prospect, to detour to Huron, where nothing is going unless there is a Game. never mind the cost of building a tunnel, even if it's there, it would be more expensive than simply leaving it above grade.

focusing on diversifying transit circulation so we are better able to serve trips other than commuting. In areas like downtown and UC, Trams could be used to circulate between the red line and health line to where they work live and play. TO me Light rail which should be called medium rail, is a complex architecture and is NOT a replacement for street Cars. Tram rail can be lighter duty and far less expensive to install and maintain because the trains are lighter and slower. this is a Cross section of a U type Tram Rail. vs the difference is the depth of the rail. one is only 72mm vs the other at 154mm. both are made by arcelor-mittal, Ironic huh. http://www.arcelormittal.com/rails+specialsections/en/tram-rails.htm I See systems I see economies of Scale, I see dis-economies of scale. I see that we are not using the right tools for the right jobs. Light rail in Cleveland should be replaced with a modern tram system. that tram system could incrementally be expanded back into the Street grid network at substantially lower cost than a misguided light Rail extensions. the idea is to grow ridership, while reducing overall operating cost. this combination can create a more sustainable transit network, that is not longer forced to cut service and raise fares, to meet subsidy shortfalls. the downtown loop should connect to tower city,above grade not below grade. It is illogical to spend million of dollars detouring the Tram away from where the people are, on the street. If your think about connections, you think about Connecting UC to the vibrant neighbors hoods around it, Shaker Square, Coventry, Cedar/firmament, Little Italy, to the assets within UC, CC, UH, CAse, wade oval, VA. how do you do this? I would seek federal dollars to fund a transit needs Study for university circle and it surrounding areas. I would suspect that it may be viable to route a tram line from Shaker Square to the University circle Red line station. I would route it from Shaker Square via, N moreland blvd -> East On fairHill -> north on Coventry -> west on fairmount -> West on cedar -> end at RedLine station. I would strongly advocate for place the rail in the existing road corridor not in the median as a cost saving measure. I consider this route a No brainier. where to go after this is a good question< I would like to see the tram head down Euclid corridor to the front door of the Cleveland Clinic's New J building going in the one way and looping out back to Euclid back down Euclid and into UH campus to thier front door, loop back around down Euclid back to University RED line station following the same route back to Shaker Square. I am not sure the best way to connect Wade Oval, VA to upper Little Italy and Coventry.

The Decline of downtown has hurt transit in this region because, All of our eggs were in one basket. UC is TOD. the goal of running everything into downtown must be rethought, maybe we should make UC and even West 25th market square secondary transfer points. i thingk we lot sight of the purpose of high volume transit, it is designed to be primarily a point to point transport , to take people from one another to another Area, not from their doorstep to their place of work or business. it really doesn't matter where they come from where its TOD or a park and Ride lot, it matter that once they begin their trip on transit they can go where they want to go. focusing on diversifying transit circulation so we are better able to serve trips other than commuting. In areas like downtown and UC, Trams could be used to circulate between the red line and health line to where they work live and play. TO me Light rail whoich should be called medium rail, is a complex architecture and is NOT a replacement for street Cars. Tram rail can be lighter duty and far less expensive to install and maintain because the trains are lighter and slower. this is a Cross section of a U type Tram Rail. vs the difference is the depth of the rail. one is only 72mm vs the other at 154mm. both are made by arcelor-mittal, Ironic huh. http://www.arcelormittal.com/rails+specialsections/en/tram-rails.html how can we better connect our vibrant neighbors together?