biker16

Joe C isn't the problem the problem is US. Their isn't anyone advocating a transit first policy for this region. Twin cities got their act together because their transit system operates at the discretion of the metropolitan government, and transit is considered a major part of regional planning. BTW look at the Access Data from the new Green line in the Twin Cities. 42,933 people live within 2 miles and work within 1/2 mile of the route. 268,387 jobs are within 1/2 mile of the route 29,936 workers within 1/2 mile of the line 145,933 workers within 2 miles of the line. is there any wonder why this line is exceeding the ridership of our own heavy rail system.

What isn't there determines whether or not people retain their cars, and the area is truly transit oriented. you are asking people to live in a Area isolated from nearby amenities simply because there is a rail station there. People aren't moving to Little Italy just because there is good transit access, they are moving there because of everything else that the neighborhood provides. the same can be said about Ohio city, and FEB, there was already something there to build around, and it happened to have good transit access. You cannot tie that growth to transit if you could you wouldn't have the traffic and parking issue they have today. this is why you need to move towards a streetcar on west 25th to simplify transit in the neighborhood. there Are Car free options available throughout the Region. the question is why would anyone expect one station in the middle of an former industrial area and cut off from downtown by massive roads and freeways to create a Car-free community? It's doesn't happen, it took decades to build a Car-free/car-lite environment in Ohio City, but as you mentioned above there are numerous options for transit other than Rail in that area, this doesn't exist at east 14th st and Broadway right now, and to create it there would take away from an existing transit service. it is smarter to improve service where it can help existing populations and not look to create TOD where it would never take hold. this is "At least we're not Detroit" phrase. look at this map of Houston and the transformation of their transit network to an modern frequent transit network. *red line indicated frequency of 15 minutes or less. *

http://www.twincities.com/transportation/ci_26182761/green-lines-first-month-ridership-beats-estimates

That hasn't stopped all the other developers and investors from moving forward. With 39 route miles of rail line and 52 stations, that's plenty of rail infrastructure to build a rail-only lifestyle around. Of course, rail riders will also use buses, walk, bike and, dare I say!, drive their own cars or car-share. In fact, most of the people who would live at this East 14th station-area development would probably have their own cars. But some will use transit (probably the usual 5-10 percent). But many more than that will use the station to reach jobs at shops and restaurants in the new neighborhood. My prediction is this neighborhood could easily accommodate 1,500 housing units. That's an average of about two persons per household, or 3,000 people. If 5% of those board at the station each day, that's 150 people. If 10% board at the station, that's 300. I also estimated about 300,000 square feet of commercial space -- of which about 150 to 250 square feet of commercial space is allocated per worker. So let's use 200 as the average. That's 1,500 workers. If 5% of them board at the station, that's 75 people. If 10% board there, that's 150 people. So the new development amounts to 225 to 450 people boarding at the station per day. There are 100 people a day who board at the existing East 34th station and will probably use the relocated station, although I think it will be more because it will be a new, more attractive and better-located station with respect to Campus District assets. But let's stick with the 100 people for sake of conservatism. So now we're talking 325 to 550 people boarding at the station per day, or 118,625 to 200,750 boardings per year. I'd call that justified. how do i get to Crocker park from here? Take the Redline to west 117th RTS then take a bus that runs every hour. or a 30min Drive how do i get to Beachwood place? Take the Redline to tower city take green line to the end of the line then take a bus that runs every hour or a 30min Drive how do i get to Independence from here? Take the redline to tower city take a bus that runs every hour or a 30min Drive How do i get to Cleveland state university from here? Walk for 15-20 mins, crossing multiple freeway off ramps. Pay 5 bux to take Redline to tower city and transfer to the HL or trolley. By bike 10 minute ride though unfriendly and dangerous streets. or a short drive How do I get to the Heinens on East 9th street? Walk for 15 mins, crossing multiple freeway off ramps. Pay 5 bux to take Redline to tower city and transfer to the HL or trolley. By bike 10 minute ride though unfriendly and dangerous streets. or short drive How do i get to South Park Mall from here? Take the redline to tower city take the commuter bus to a park and ride and wait on a bus or 30 min drive You cannot expect anyone to go car free or even car light with a trabnsit system that isn't in any way competitive with driving, especially in an area built for cars and with few amenities within walking distance. people with options are going car free and car light are doing so in Ohio City and Tremont because those areas have amenities within them and they are walk-able and bike-able areas. transit is considered the 3rd to 4th option for them because it simply doesn't work well enough for them. It’s not really comparable because Crocker Park came “pre-gentrified”, politically as well as economically. It ‘s in an area where it could easily be built for the use of the more affluent. It’s an example of how density can work, and work well, where everyone has certain things in common. Chicago’s had some success with this as well. I’m always skeptical of trying to build a neighborhood from scratch because of all the little details that need to come together to make one attractive, particularly to those with options. It’s especially true in this area. However, if you’re going to spend this kind of money what I would recommend is building a series of more modern and well designed public housing areas to replace that ultimate failure of intelligent urban planning, Lakeview Terrace (the pet peeve of my urbanist side). From what I understand, the conditions in those buildings will make many of them uninhabitable within the next decade anyway. Mix them in with places for industry or retail, and serve it well with buses. Then level that whole area in the old Angle, run your West Shore Line through it, and open it up to private development. The amenities are already there. You’ll expand the W. 25th momentum simply by removing this millstone from its neck, and even a cynic like me would expect it to take off from there. you do know that Lakeview terrace is adjacent to a water treatment plant, and the Port of Cleveland's bulk shipping docks, right?While the Shoreway effectively disconnects it from Ohio City, it has great views of the salt mines, piles of bulk material and alot of dust. there are better areas to redevelop than lake view terrace, there is a reason they put poor people there, the land and it's environs have issues.

Either the developer builds the station or you use a TIF from the TOD to build the station. Plenty of real-world examples of this from around the USA. I was referring to the ENTIRE transit system not just that station. It is difficult to be dependent on a system that doesn't go where you need to go, in a reasonable amount of time. You are more likely to keep the car around or use other forms for of transportation that can do what the transit system cannot.

why didn't you walk there? Because you are expecting people to walk to Heinen's at East 9th and Euclid, because it is far too difficult to take the Redline to get to Heinen's. Don't confuse Auto-centric development with Transit centric development, they are very different. the difference is Walkablity, you have to have somewhere to walk from or somewhere to walk to to support TOD. Transit oriented development unlike auto-centric development cannot be mode centric. TOD has to involve Walking, biking, along with Rail and bus transit, and it has to a be part of a place, building there and hoping the Density will come is unrealistic especially since there is a far larger high density area less than 3/4 mile away. which is too far to encourage frequent walking trips and to close to encourage frequent heavy rail trips where the Time to and From platform outweighs the advantages of speed. for someone who lives there they will simply drive, they could bike but won't because the linkages are all dangerous high speed roads. with auto-centric design there is a little penalty to build further and further from the NODE (interchange) because all trips are in vehicle are signal mode trips. you simply drive further, and have an infinite number of potential stops on the way. This is the problem to a lesser extent with the lakefront, the linkages are auto-centric and the most convenient way to move from the lakefront to downtown is to drive. then there is the issue that the transit system doesn't go where most people need to go, which means they will have a Vehicle around for those trips where the transit system doesn't go, which is alot of places in our region. you can't build greenfield TOD until the issue of system connectivity and accessibility is solved.

KJP there aren't any amenities near this location. TOD requires a Walable environment. I'm sure you drove your car to take these pictures, people would be more likely to drive here than take transit which defeats the purpose of TOD.

Indeed. This might be the worst located rail transit station anywhere. An East 14th station would be worse, the walk from that location isn't pretty. It is and wild continue to be a maze of highway over passes, and 9 lane high speed roads. More info on Infill stations here. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2768.msg713140#msg713140

It's not justified for the passenger rail service we have. Things are changing, when the time comes we must put trains and even intercity buses back into the CUT. The lakefront cannot meet the needs for a full intercity rail network, as planned under the Ohio hub, NeoRail and Chicago HUB HSR.

Where would you put it -- without breaking the bank (ie: exceeding $100 million) -- and allowing Amtrak to serve it from all directions or without back-up moves? There's only two places where that could be accomplished and still keep it downtown: 1. somewhere along the lakefront tracks between the river and roughly East 13th; or 2. somewhere along the NS tracks west of the Main Post Office off Broadway. Coming up with $50 million to $70 million for the Lakefront Multimodal Transportation Center is going to be difficult enough. Spending much more than that is a huge challenge in this public funding environment and may preclude Tower City Center -- unless we get real estate developers in Cleveland and Chicago to join forces with a passenger-friendly, track-owning railroad company to imitate what All Aboard Florida is doing. Why not Tower City?

It would be small starts. the original line cost 66 million An extension to the north (1.2 mile would replace ~1 mile of the existing line) would cost between 40 and 60 million for a streetcar extension, depending if you added dedicated lanes and island stations or if you used street appropriate rolling stock. A 1.5 mile extension through Scranton and on to Ohio city would run between 60 and 80 million, depending on how much the bridge will cost to rehabilitate and other mitigation factors on the Scranton penisula

Yes. If it reduces demand for parking, and can move more people on transit it is most definitely worth it. The cost would be in the range of 50-65million to do, this can be paid for with TIF and TID that can capture the value of the development being built on the lakefront.

To do a traditional 1/4 mile radius on a map, from the waterfront line would make it a appear that there is a great access to the lakefront. when in reality, there are many negative environments between where people want to go and the current line. The trench, the freeway, the hill, and the walking environment. First: the lakefront is over a 1/4 mile from the stations second: for tourists the service isn't visible and some believe is in an awkward location. Third: where the development is taking place Transit is a 1/2 mile walk. Fouth: being connected to Tower city isn't the best thing for residents or tourists. our activity centers are spread round our downtown. to take a 8 min train ride only to have another 10 min walk to reach other destinations. My idea explained here http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2768.msg704084#msg704084 would take the WFL out of the Trench and put it where the people are, on the street. At the southern end of the route I would extend it over the bridge as streetcar, through the Scranton peninsula (opening it up to TOD), and up Columbus road to the West Side Market. where riders could transfer to other services or walk around Ohio city, duck island and even over to Tremont. for the residents on the lakefront they would have direct access to the west side market, and all the development potential of TOD on the Scranton peninsula. in essence this services the primary market for the "Skylift"

If anyone wanted to see what a Relocated waterfront line would look like check out this thread. http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=2768.msg704084#msg704084 1/8 mile buffer current route 1/8 mile buffer Waterfront streetcar. there is an Access issue with the Waterfront and the waterfront line.

yet I, remember the frenzy About it from many people here.

this sounds interesting.

I'll give you that. Having said that, it's time to start looking at building programs/amenities for families. http://nearwestfamilynetwork.org/

I love it. You find a way to pay for it. Their conceptual plans don't show it. But then again, those are just conceptual. And since they will build this in phases, surface parking will continue to exist (but steadily diminish) to the west. Exactly. I wonder instead of putting the WFL, in it's current place can they reroute it down the main street? Make it at grade? But building some transportation into this development! That's a great idea.

Jetdog or anyone else know why the New Articulated buses are being used on the healthline?

The traffic chaos that a gas station would've created at THAT intersection....I shudder to think of it. Good on Cudell for getting back to someone. Let's see if we can get some pressure on those involved to up their game aesthetically. what a great incentive for people to use transit, congestion. :clap:

Below is what ODOT is building south of the Inner Belt -- fewer ramps and the beginnings of a street grid. When you drive down the hill of the new Commerical Road/East 9th extension, I think that hillside screams new housing construction more than industrial. The hillside makes it tough to develop anything else except small structures (like townhomes or small apartment blocks) stepping their way up the hillside.... I don't think building housing. South of the innerbelt will ever be a good idea, the area is and will continue to become a car oriented area with wide roads with fast traffic, and is a good 10-15minute walk from where all of the residential amenities that people need to live, and you can't say that access to transit is enough to compensate for the isolation of that area, because it isn't. That area should remain industrial, and we should be more focused on redevelop the acres of parking lots within the CBD, the flats and the lakefront b before thinking of developing this area.

Medina to Painsville saves costs and increase system efficiency by running as one long route instead of 2 shorter routes. interlined with other RER route through ~30% of the route would follow a potential coumbus the Buffalo route proposed in the Ohio Hub plan. Cleveland route parallels I-71 and I-480, a newly constructed SR176 viaduct would lead to a ~1 mile bored tunnel beneath Ohio City and would also contain a Station to Service Metro health medical center and Steelyard commons. Trains would exist the tunnel 1/4 mile south of the CUT viaduct and Rail tracks would be installed on the south side of the Viaduct and into a new Cleveland Union terminal. Inflow/Outflow Job Counts (All Jobs) 2011 Count Share Employed in the Selection Area 497,716 100.0% Employed in the Selection Area but Living Outside 279,122 56.1% Employed and Living in the Selection Area 218,594 43.9% Living in the Selection Area 389,063 100.0% Living in the Selection Area but Employed Outside 170,469 43.8% Living and Employed in the Selection Area 218,594 56.2% Travel times Medina to Airport 19.6 Airport to Downtown 21.9 downtown to UC 9.6 UC to Painsville 25 Medina to downtown 41.5 Airport to UC 25.1 Painsville to Airport 50.2 Painsville to Medina 69.8

Elyria to Solon Fully electrified from Elyria to North Randall maximum speeds of 125mph DMU operation from North Randall to Solon. This is backbone of the network, providing fast east-west travel through the region. Service to Downtown Cleveland would require a transfer to another train. Anticipated frequencies of 15 mins all day, designed to be a Rapid Type service. Inflow/Outflow Job Counts (All Jobs) 2011 Count Share Employed in the Selection Area 285,821 100.0% Employed in the Selection Area but Living Outside 199,716 69.9% Employed and Living in the Selection Area 86,105 30.1% Living in the Selection Area 242,181 100.0% Living in the Selection Area but Employed Outside 156,076 64.4% Living and Employed in the Selection Area 86,105 35.6% Travel times. Elyria to airport 15.6 Solon to airport 22.98 Elyria to Solon 38.58

Canton to University Circle Electrified Service would end in Hudson and revert to DMU service from Hudson south to Canton using the existing Rail ROW. Cleveland Service would run paralell to GCRTA trainsit service, and use a double track ROW built upon the original Cleveland Union terminal ROW to university circle With a flyover built between East 105th st and cedar to move ROW over the existing NS line and closer the GCRTA transit service. Akron because of the location of the existing ROW, Trains Would travel from canton to Akron stop and reverse northward to Cleveland. Canton Trains would connect downtown akron and Canton to Akron canton Airport. Travel times distance travel time Akron to Hudson 14.1 miles 24.1mins Canton to Akron 24 miles 40mins canton to Hudson 38.1 miles 66.1 mins Canton to UC 73 miles 107.6 mins initial peak frequency of every 30 mins with a maximum frequency of 15 minutes Inflow/Outflow Job Counts (All Jobs) 2011 Count Share Employed in the Selection Area 637,193 100.0% Employed in the Selection Area but Living Outside 407,690 64.0% Employed and Living in the Selection Area 229,503 36.0% Living in the Selection Area 395,355 100.0% Living in the Selection Area but Employed Outside 165,852 42.0% Living and Employed in the Selection Area 229,503 58.0% Kent to Akron there is more Travel between Kent and Akron and than Kent to Cleveland. access to Cleveland is provided via cross platform transfer. Travel time estimated at 22 minutes. Inflow/Outflow Job Counts (All Jobs) 2011 Count Share Employed in the Selection Area 118,577 100.0% Employed in the Selection Area but Living Outside 83,352 70.3% Employed and Living in the Selection Area 35,225 29.7% Living in the Selection Area 96,629 100.0% Living in the Selection Area but Employed Outside 61,404 63.5% Living and Employed in the Selection Area 35,225 36.5% frequency of ~1 hour for one Train needed for service.

System map The network would include 4 routes. Kent to Akron Canton to University Circle Elyria to Solon Medina to Painsville. This would include 100 miles of electrified passenger only Class 7 Rail rated up to 125mph interlined with Regional and High speed Rail service , and 45 miles of non-electrified rail. couple of notes Creating high-speed corridor along I-480 from Elyria to north Randall allows for service to independence and the innerring suburbs along I480, promote transit use along the corridor. Using a high-speed ROW in the median of I-71 provides better access to workers and jobs than a route within exsiting Rail ROW. electrification allows for trains to operate on steeper grades up to 3% Only by using CUT ROW you can have the Frequencies needed to provide Rapid transit, trains crossing the river and grater than 40 TPH at the current Lakefront station Will negatively affect Access to the river. Within 3 miles of Station Inflow/Outflow Job Counts (All Jobs) 2011 Count Share Employed in the Selection Area 956,769 100.0% Employed in the Selection Area but Living Outside 446,141 46.6% Employed and Living in the Selection Area 510,628 53.4% Living in the Selection Area 752,350 100.0% Living in the Selection Area but Employed Outside 241,722 32.1% Living and Employed in the Selection Area 510,628 67.9% This would be come the regional Rapid transit network, with local bus services feeding into this rapid network.