inlovewithCLE

I love the new Tri-C design. It's keeping with their plans over there to turn that area (with Tri-C, St. Vincent, etc) into a low-budget University Circle, if you will. I think this is the beginning of really good improvements that can enhance that goal

Exactly! People actually like this is Simon City or something or that money grows on trees. Momentum may be building, but midtown hasn't arrived yet. That's not to say I think that just any old thing should be built in this area, but the demand is not such that it requires the level of density some would like to see immediately. And when it does get there, then you can demand things get built denser, infact the market will dictate that. Nothing is permanent and should demand get to a point where the current building stock can't meet demand for space I'm sure those buildings will come down to make room for something greater. Totally agree with every single word

Totally agree with X and others. What other investment was coming to this particular area without these suburban office parks that many of you despise? Demanding that every neighborhood look and feel like Ohio City is a way to promote more vacancy. Plus, as I've said before, this is Midtown's explicit strategy. They WANT this kind of development. They want to be the answer to the suburban office developments and parks. And as I've said her before, I'm ok with that. My philosophy is that I want in the city an experience that you can't get in the suburbs but I also want everything that they have too. We have enough neighborhoods to fascilitate both

I always love when money for one project is suggested (demanded) to be used for another project, as if that money was going to be available no matter what for whatever the city decided to spend it on. Don't get me wrong, what you said is something that's needed. But what is the guarantee that this money would've even been available for that?

Cleveland Central Catholic is in Slavic Village

It wouldn't solve its largely windowless bunker-style design, or its large apron (er, moat) of concrete and grass surrounding it. The whole structure says "I don't care about interacting on a human scale with my urban surroundings." And guess what -- it doesn't. In fairness, most arenas aren't built to be big statements of urbanity

Even still, it wouldn't be enough to fill the Wolstein Center. It's just too big. I'm a big supporter of the Vikings men's basketball team and wouldn't support anything that would hurt that program, but it looks terrible on tv when that cavernous building has 5,000 or less people in it and that section with the ridiculously cheesy cardboard fake picture of an audience on the one side. That building is terrible. It needs to be torn down and rebuilt smaller. It should have all of the accommodations of a modern arena (Digital tv scoreboards, luxury boxes, etc) in order to actually make money and then they should still bolster the CSU Vikings program. Most of their games still aren't televised and in 2016, that's a disgrace. That shouldn't happen. But the arena is too big, too ugly and too awkward. It needs to come down. (Honestly I wish there was a way to rebuild it at Gateway where it should be, but alas)

Exactly. High end actually has more of a shot to be successful than mid or low end stores in TC, based on where the retail market is. I think too many of us are just projecting what we want it to be instead of looking at what would or could work. It should definitely have some things for DT residents, sure, but this entire mall should not be filled with Walgreens and CVS's and stuff like that. High end retail has the best shot of working in TC if done correctly

Yeah I talked to one of the promoters a while ago. It's a donut shop and a nightclub. Interesting mix lol. Haven't seen any pictures yet though

I don't think they want to wait that long for that secondary retail function to develop. It seems to me like we may be thinking about their plans too small and too regionally. I don't even think they're going to be marketing this thing to locals. It seems like they're going to use this to be more touristy, attract people from the suburbs, people who work downtown and mainly, people who are here visiting. That's what it seems like to me, leveraging the casino and the hotel and building off of that. So I don't even think they're attempting to target locals, other than the residents that will be actually living in terminal tower. I'm optimistic because as someone pointed out earlier, Gilbert's TC co-owner has done this before in Detroit.

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs. I am with you in regards to it being located in the city. It seems that someone is going to build an outlet mall somewhere in the Cleveland area so it might as well be in the city preferably downtown. Bring the taxes / jobs / visitors downtown in hope that they will stay and visit other venues in the city. These are preliminary renderings let's see what comes next. Any other development around BKL is probably years away. If they can be smart about it and tie it in to the WFL somehow and create a connection to NCH I think we have to consider it. You're absolutely right. It's clear this is going to get built regardless so why not here? At least consider it. The snobby rejection of it out of hand really bothers me, especially considering the kind of jobs that this can create for the many, many people in our community who aren't working at the tech places or in the health care industry or at a trendy bar. And if done properly, this could bring in a lot of people to shop who otherwise would never have any reason to come into the city to shop? With our retail landscape, most people have their retail needs served very closely to their home. And outlet mall is one of the only ways to get those people to come into the city and spend their money. This will bring us more tax dollars which will allow us to do more for the people on the lower end of the ladder in the city, the people who aren't participating in Cleveland's new economy. That's one of the reasons I'm so passionately for this. Everything can't be super upscale, high end, only the big boys and girls can afford to be here. What about something for regular people? And again, I'm not saying that this can't be improved. I would prefer a Legacy Village style development, for example. (Just because it's not upscale doesn't mean it has to look cheap). I also want an adequate amount of restaurants here so that it's not a complete dead zone at night. But I think that overall, this development could be very good for the city, particularly to attract people to shop and work, people that unfortunately get ignored too often around here. That's just my 2 ¢

That's not going to happen. Even when they were discussing possibly putting outlets in TC, they were always of the more upscale variety. There's never been a plan to do what they're planning on the lakefront (nor should they, in my opinion. TC should be for upscale). The fact of the matter is we've never seen anyone run TC that actually knew what they were doing. Gilbert and his team, they know how to get this done.

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs. Yes “Developer in Training” I would have thought that would have been obvious to all to everyone on here, and at least a few at the city level (accept for the usual clueless officials that should know better). But I forget that not everybody here is an urban planner, and doesn’t necessarily realize the ramifications of such bad decisions, even after years of examples which are addressed at great length on these very pages. I give inlovewithCLE a pass as I know he is passionate about the city. I just don’t agree that the concept as planned should have any future, even a better designed structure. I would be all ears if it was proposed as part of a larger concept/development as many have shown examples of, but we shouldn't be accepting a “anything is better than nothing” approach. The city really should play a leading role in fostering and guiding development when it comes to prime spots and interested parties. I just don’t think, under the current administration that they have that capability or vision. That's fine. We just fundamentally disagree on this issue (which is ok). I've said my philosophy many times on the pages of UO so I won't repeat it here. But although I agree the design could be better, I definitely think this should happen. For a whole host of reasons that, again, I've articulated before and won't repeat here

There's only, what, one or two nightclubs in FEB? The rest are bars and restaurants. It's not like FEB is overrun with nightclubs. And the one I know for sure they have, FWD, does quite well. I do agree there should be more diversification, but it's not like there's a ton of nightclubs in FEB. (I would argue that it wouldn't hurt to have a couple more but I digress)

None of these stores would likely even entertain being in the Galleria or The Avenue. That's just not a realistic expectation. It's one thing to say that it should be designed better to fit on the lake front. That's fair. But if you're rejecting this out of hand, you're basically saying you don't want retail and economic activity from this in the city limits. It ain't gonna happen at the Galleria or The Avenue. It's just not. I vote to make it better but I want the economic activity here. I want the taxes here. I want the jobs here. I don't want this going to the suburbs.

Correct

I still support the idea of setting up a deal similar to how we did county headquarters. Could save a lot of money if we're not responsible for maintaining it

I'm not opposed to tearing the JC down. In fact, I would rather they tear it down. But I'm not opposed to them rebuilding it in the same place, eliminating what you were talking about. Maybe they can do a deal similar to how they did county headquarters, where they don't own the building and just lease it from a developer. Could save a lot of money in terms of recurring costs that way. They can also build a new justice center to have at least some retail (light restaurants, etc) so that it contributes to the neighborhood around it. There's a lot of things that could be done if we're creative

And for the record I have no issue with pushing back to make the design more integrated with the area around it. No problem. But the hyperbole being indulged about this project is amazing to me. This would be a boon for the city in terms of taxes, it will virtually guarantee a lot of people coming into the city and its one of the only things you could do to get suburban shoppers to shop in the city again. it doesn't matter that they may not be the particular stores that you would prefer or that you're just against the idea. What matters is that if done correctly, this could be huge for the city. And it enhances the current and planned developments around it as well. So let's fight to make it better, as we should with anything. But some folks need to stop acting as if it's the worst idea they've ever heard just because you aren't the target market. Just my 2 ¢

Residential is not going to happen with this development. That's not what they do. I do agree that there should be restaurants there to make sure it's not a complete dead zone at night

I would like high end outlet stores but I honestly think that THAT is more suitable for Tower City. I don't think the outlet mall should be low end but it doesn't have to be high end either. I would rather see high end outlet stores go to Tower City. I want this project to attract not only the downtown shopper but the average shopper

The only positive to me: Can a downtown location drive enough traffic away from Lodi/Aurora to shut those sites down and bring this type of retail back to the center? I'm very skeptical this project will do that though. I think there will be three less than 1/2 filled outlet centers. With their standard outlet mall mix of retail...it wouldn't be getting business from my partner or I or, I would venture, the majority of urban dwellers without kids. Without a better retail mix, this is just a suburban outlet mall located downtown catering to suburbanites and visitors. And there's nothing wrong with that. Not everything is going to target everybody. And that's fine. I want the suburbanites money too

I'm still supportive of the project. I would like the city to push to make sure it's integrated with the developments around it. And I agree with whoever suggested this (I think it was KJP but I could be wrong) that there should be some restaurants/entertainment options along with the shopping so it's not a dead zone at night. But ultimately, this would be great for the city's tax revenue and economy and it is also a way to finally get shoppers around the region to come back downtown.

Personally I love the idea and the location. We have so much land that this could be plopped right there and we could still build things around it. And this would be a regional draw (depending on the mix of retail of course). And it would certainly make sense to put it here in the sense of helping attract even more visitors to the lakefront. It attracts people to downtown shopping in a way that nothing else could. Plus, as I've said a thousand times before, I want the city to be competitive with every area in the region. So I love it

I love it. This definitely would be a regional draw. I want this in the parameters of the city. I'm all in. Let's do it