inlovewithCLE

Ugh. This is NOT good. As one person said, it gives credence to the naysayers that say retail doesn't work in downtown CLE. This is a damn shame. Its going to be restaurant developments as far as the eye can see for now. One person said that its basically Target or Wal-Mart for downtown. That would be an UPGRADE on our current state of affairs. I think all of the reasons you guys have mentioned (high priced, too narrow of a demo, no name brand) are correct. I think all of those things had a part in why this thing didn't work. Its clear to me now that if we want any meaningful retail in downtown Cleveland its going to either have to be a) retail outlet stores (something that's different than what's available in the suburbs) or b) regular retail stores that we're going to have to subsidize the hell out of in order to get and keep them downtown (a la Pittsburgh).

Students in the general sense were NOT the target of the Langston. They were pretty clear about that. This was for graduate students, professors, and the regular downtown residency. They said that when this was announced originally. I'm sure regular students are living here too, but its false to say that was their target. It wasn't.

@KJP, you have to look at this development as something separate than developing parking lots in the CBD because of this reason: for the companies that this appeals to, building office towers in the CBD is NOT an option. Companies that like this kind of development do not like the kind of development you're saying (and most of us agree) we should have. These companies aren't coming to the CBD. Period. And I DEFINITELY would rather have this kind of development by Burke instead of smack dab in the middle of downtown. I think very few of us would be happy with that. So I think that if you compare the possibility of development in the CBD with this project, you won't be able to judge this project on the merits because, as I said before, building in the CBD is not an option for the type of companies that would move to this development anyway. They're interested in being in the city of Cleveland (for a myriad of reasons: tax incentives, the sexiness, the fact that some of their employees live downtown or close to it, etc.) But the companies that like this kind of development are NOT interested in building in the Warehouse District or in Public Square or any of that. THIS is designed to appeal to a specific segment of the market that wouldn't even consider coming downtown without it.

@Cleveland, Ohio, if this place gets filled with office workers from the suburbs (and judging by Geis' urban track record in Midtown, this has a very good shot at succeeding), an Applebees or Fridays probably wouldn't be far behind. (I realize that makes some of you hate this even more, lol, but I'm just being honest!) I think it'll work. I've had experience with the culture of the people that this is trying to attract. Many of them WANT to be in the city of Cleveland (because its the sexy thing to do right now, many of them come down here more than they used to for recreation and some of them live here now). But they don't want to venture too far out of their safety zone. They aint doing the office tower. Yeah this most likely won't have structured parking, but it will have surface parking and it will probably be free. They LOVE that. I know, I know, lol, but they do. I'm almost certain this will work. The demand is there. And the tax incentives don't hurt either. @KJP, I feel you, man! But it is what it is, as Mayor Jackson says.

@KJP, I understand the concern. I have those same issues with this. I'm not crazy about the location. As far as "why not add tenants in the CBD?", it appears to me that this project is not meant to appeal to companies in or who would want to be in the CBD. It seems to me, from everything I've read, that this project is more likely geared toward sprawling companies who would want a sprawling campus. So this is targeting a different market. Apparently Geis is negotiating with potential tenants already. I think that the tenants he's negotiating with aren't companies that would want a big, nice, shiny office tower in the CBD. I just don't think that's who this is going after. It seems to me that this project is designed to go after companies who most likely wouldn't be downtown without it. I found it interesting that David Browning (I think) said in both the PD and Crain's Cleveland Business article something along the lines of "had this been ready when Eaton or American Greetings were in the market, they may have chosen this". That statement there tells you EXACTLY who this is going after. I can't help but feel a little giddy at the prospect of stealing at least one (I'm not greedy, lol) big company from the suburbs. That's what it seems like the purpose of this is. So, like you, I'm not crazy about the location & I'd like to see more office towers in the CBD. But the companies that would be in this project likely would have NO interest in being in the CBD without this project. Case in point: (from the PD article) "It really is benefiting from the synergies with the airport, and there are a lot of companies that like to have offices near a regional airport, for private jets," said Scott Wolstein, who is developing the Flats East Bank project, which includes an office tower and hotel near the Cuyahoga River. "When I looked at the city's plan for waterfront development, I thought this component of the project made a lot of sense. I felt that this was the easiest and the likeliest to get done." That sounds like a target demographic of sprawling companies, to me. Not companies that would want to be in the CBD currently. And in that case, if that is the case, then this is a positive because its a net sum gain. I'm not crazy about the location or the fact that its not new office towers, but by accepting the fact that this is going after companies who would likely have NO interest in being in downtown Cleveland without this, the possibilities kind of excites me a bit.

Smh. Building a strip center to attract stores that most likely wouldn't be going downtown anyway in a city that had almost none of those stores prior IS progress. 0 + 1 = 1. Not zero. If we had NOTHING (which was basically the case) and now you add Steelyard, that means you now have SOMETHING when before you had NOTHING. I don't think anyone reasonably believes that Steelyard is hurting downtown retail. That's absurd. Its been well documented that the dynamics of downtown Cleveland retail is a unique monster all on its own. No one could possibly believe that if Steelyard didn't exist, downtown retail would be better. The most likely case is that if Steelyard didn't exist, the vast majority of those stores wouldn't be in the city AT ALL. Where Steelyard stands would most likely still be vacant and all of that income would be somewhere else, in some suburb. It shouldn't even take explaining. The benefits are obvious. We literally had NO national retail in the city of Cleveland. If you can't convince the mid-level retailers that they can make money in Steelyard, then you don't have a snowballs chance in hell of convincing more higher end stores. You don't go from nothing to Beachwood Place quality stores. This is quite simple, really.

People are excited because, for the most part, NONE of those stores were in Cleveland proper before Steelyard. This is progress and a great thing for the city. You don't go from essentially having NO national stores to having Legacy Village. It doesn't work that way. You have to first demonstrate that retail in general can work in your city before you start clamoring for high end retail. I agree that we should have more high end retail. But you don't get there from nowhere. Steelyard is demonstrating that national retail in general can work in Cleveland. That was step number 1. And by the way, I've heard that First Interstate actually makes more money from Steelyard than Legacy Village. Why? Larger market.

@Burnham_2011, its funny you say that people get attacked for giving an opinion as if that only comes from one side. Those of us that believe in being "reasonable" and "realistic" are told that we have no vision or we're uninspired. There's a certain segment here on UO that are a bit militant. They only want THEIR vision for Cleveland and any other vision is wrong. I'm not saying that's you, but there's a loud minority on UO that appear to feel that way. Myself and people that agree with me see in Midtown people who want to spend their money developing an area that has desolate, abandoned areas in it. Some of us are not willing to wait years (and possibly decades) for the circumstances to be just right to give us EXACTLY what we want. My grandmother says "sometimes you got to take the bitter with the sweet". We can't always get EXACTLY what we want. That's what the debate was about here. It was about some here acting like development in Midtown is a bad thing because its not EXACTLY what they want. That's foolish to me and, apparently, some others on UO too. That's what its about. Most of us would prefer density laced development in Midtown. There's no market for it there right now. Like it or not, there isn't. There IS, however, a market for what they're building. There's a demand for what they're building. And, as another commenter said, I'd rather have them build it here than in the suburbs so we can see even MORE money and jobs leave. Aren't you tired of us just giving these things away? I am. I want jobs, money and opportunity in Cleveland. If I have to take a suburban tech park to get it done, so be it. That's called pragmatism. Taking the bitter with the sweet. And on the police station, personally, I'm not that concerned about it because its a POLICE STATION. Not much you can do with it. Its not mixed use. Its a practical building with a practical purpose.

The one person who said some have a "Sim City" attitude is so true. The fact of the matter is this: market forces determine what gets put where. Yes, planning has a ton to do with the initial strategy, but plans mean nothing if there's no one willing to put money behind it. One can complain about the Midtown strategy all day long, but smart people with a lot of money are building here and its attracting companies there. The demand is high for the Midtown Tech Park, that's why they keep expanding. If you have the money, you make the rules. Its just that simple. Companies want to be in the Midtown Tech Park. Developers want to build things like that. Why? BECAUSE of the proximity of the Clinic and University Hospitals. Companies in this field would want to be close to the Clinic and UH for obvious reasons. That's called DEMAND. There's a demand for health and tech companies to be close to our health institutions so developers see the demand and respond to it. Its just that simple. The Midtown plan didn't come out of thin air. So people can gripe about it all day long, but you can choose militancy or progress. In this instance, you can't have both.

@Hts121, again I agree. It is insane to say "I don't want [insert developer name here] to spend their money in a neighborhood that was blighted and vacant because they don't build to my exact preferred specifications. I'd rather wait and let the place stay vacant for another 20 or 30 years." That's insane. That kind of militant attitude will ensure that some neighborhoods will stay vacant and blighted. Every neighborhood is not downtown, Ohio City, Tremont, University Circle and not every neighborhood can grow into those neighborhoods. Its absurd, absolutely absurd to be upset about this. Now if this was University Circle? Yell to the rooftops. But its not. Its an either/or because it IS an either/or. For Geis and the companies interested in being in Midtown, its EITHER build what they are looking for OR they aint coming. Its really that simple. So right now, for Midtown, it IS either/or.

And like I've said previously (including in this conversation), I don't mind the idea of having a neighborhood that has sprawling business campuses in order to compete with the suburbs. I'm a skyscraper kind of guy, personally, but like another person said, if a company is determined to have a sprawling campus, I'd rather them build it in the city instead of the suburbs. If the market dictates this, then you go with it. And as I've been saying from day one, its clear that this is HOW THEY WANT IT. Midtown is deliberately designed to be Cleveland's answer to the suburban business culture. I, for one, am ok with that. I wouldn't want to see this downtown, but for Midtown, why not? We need to be competitive. Let's face it, not everyone is density loving urbanites like most of us. But we want and need businesses and people. It would be painfully stupid to turn down a company interested in coming into or back into a city because we don't want them to build a "sprawling" campus. If Midtown is Cleveland's suburban business district, then so be it.

@HTS121, EXACTLY! We all want more density, but we have to be pragmatic and not militant about this. We have to fix Midtown first before we can be picky. Being picky is a luxury. Once Midtown is stabilized, THEN we can be more selective about what goes there

I understand your point, but I don't have a problem with this strategy. As I've said before, I believe its important to have one neighborhood that can compete with the suburbs. If Midtown needs suburban style development to bring in investment, then so be it. This is clearly a planned and deliberate strategy to make a suburban district out of Midtown. I'm ok with that

more coverage (from PD) MidTown Tech Park expanding with third phase, new tenants on Cleveland's Health-Tech Corridor An urban business park keeps growing in Midtown Cleveland, where Hemingway Development is testing the market for growing Cleveland companies and suburban tenants looking to move. The developer, part of the Geis Cos. of Streetsboro, has a contract to buy a 64,000-square-foot building at 6555 Carnegie Ave. The deal, set to close in late September, will add a third structure to the MidTown Tech Park, an emerging suburban-style office park in a former industrial neighborhood. With the $8.9 million acquisition and redevelopment of 6555 Carnegie, the park will comprise 242,000 square feet -- much of it leased or spoken for. "I think this building has got a ways to go," said Fred Geis, a Hemingway principal. "But we wanted to create a three-building campus. ... It gives people moving from the suburbs confidence. They see an engineered community. They want to have a suburban feel, while still moving back into the urban environment." (http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2012/07/midtown_tech_park_expanding_wi.html)

Look at the street signs guys. That's indisputably part of the "Theater District". Where it says something else, that's when its something else

Agreed. Its so absurd. Here's a question though. If you had to, would you subsidize the stores just to get them downtown (tax breaks, etc.)? If it was temporary and it expired after a certain period of time, I would consider it. I don't like the idea of subsidizing department stores but we may not have a choice if we ever want department stores back downtown. That's what Pittsburgh had to do in order to keep some of their department stores downtown.

thanks!

has anyone seen a rendering of the AsiaTown streetscape?

I agree with the comment that its a police station, not a mixed use development. I'm not really that concerned about the layout of the parking lot of a police station. For what it is, I like the look of it. It'll be a pretty good looking station

Because CMSD using that building in any capacity would require them to spend money to fix it, OR the charter would have to spend money they most likely don't have to fix it. I agree that a school downtown would be ideal, but I think it needs to be outside the confines of this building. CMSD needs to unload this, period, in my opinion. But I do agree that we need a downtown school. Maybe the old Jewish Federation building.

^This has been discussed ad nauseum. CMSD cannot afford to fix the building. It is cheaper for them to move. It makes more sense for them to be in a rented office downtown instead of owning a headquarters. There's no legitimate reason to do so other than nostalgia. This is a no-brainer. This building gets sold to people who can actually afford to fix it and CMSD saves money by renting AND they take up 70,000 sf of a downtown office market that sorely needs it. This shouldn't even be controversial. It's common sense.

Since Steelyard has officially begun phase 2, I figured we should have a separate thread for that. I didn't find one but if there's already one, please delete this mods. Steelyard just announced on its Facebook Page that officially Burlington Coat Factory is coming. :clap: I believe they will be the anchor of phase 2

I strongly disagree. Just a difference of opinion. I Love stuff like Times Square and I'm strongly in favor of Dan's plan. That's sexy to me and we need to add some sexy to our image. But that's my opinion

Personally, I'd rather have Times Square. That's just me.

I forgot it was called that for a while Ha! But yes it is and I will keep an eye out for store openings and other progress It's still called that. The mall was always referred to as "The Avenue at Tower City Center". Technically Tower City Center is the entire complex, including the Higbee building, Post Office Plaza, etc. But the mall itself is just referred to as Tower City for obvious, name simplifying reasons. But yeah its actual name has always been The Avenue. Just isn't used often, which is a shame cause that's a cool name. Okay tangent over. Lol