inlovewithCLE

And KJP, if a Red Line extension were to go through Collinwood Yards, how close would that be to the Collinwood Yards business district over there? Its a nice little district with a ton of potential for more growth. Jergens, Sodexo (sp?), the Cleveland Foodbank, and the Social Security Administration building are all on that Collinwood Yards development. I've only been to where the buildings are and never paid any attention to the rail lines, but if its close, that could be a GREAT thing for the Collinwood neighborhood and their business district.

About the extension into Euclid: I think its a FANTASTIC idea. I'm torn between which line should be extended. Which one would be the easiest and more beneficial? (As we know in Cleveland, the easier we can keep it, the more likely it is to get done) My heart says to extend the Red Line. But my head says to extend the Healthline. Just seems like logistically, it'd be easier to do that. I hope I'm wrong though, because I'd love to see an extension of the Red Line. As far as how far it would go, I would like to see whatever line extended go into Lake County. That makes a lot of sense. I'm not too optimistic about that, however, because Lake is served by another governmental agency (Laketran) and we ALL know how hard it is to get different governmental agencies in differing counties to work with each other in a timely manner for the common good. So if we can't get it extended INTO Lake County, we should get it up to the Cuyahoga County line. I think there's a huge market for that. And the easier that we can get Lake County residents into University Circle and downtown, the better. Thirdly, while I understand the need for RTA to diversify its routes, I think attempting to remove downtown Cleveland from the center of gravity would be unnecessary and a quick way to render downtown into irrelevance. You don't have to do that. As another poster mentioned, its okay to have employment centers in Independence, Beachwood, etc. but you've got to protect your downtown. (And I think we've done a pretty good job at doing that). Without your downtown, you're Detroit (and even THEY are starting to rebuild their downtown). Instead of having a situation where its like "well we have to choose downtown or Beachwood or Independance or University Circle, etc." why not choose all of them? UC and Downtown are already connected. Why not link Independance to Downtown Cleveland? And extending RTA into Chagrin Highlands should've been done like yesterday. No we shouldn't put all of our eggs in one basket. But Downtown Cleveland is the mecca and should always remain the mecca. But that doesn't mean we can't do things to strengthen all of our regional employment centers. Why choose? Have it all! Regions are starting to realize that a strong downtown in the center city is critical for the region, especially among young companies that WANT to be downtown. So, while all of these employment centers in the city and in the suburbs are fine, we shouldn't act as if Downtown Cleveland is disposable. It's not. I want to make it easier for MORE people to get downtown. Linking the business districts around the county together strengthens all of them. We can have our cake and eat it too, in this instance.

In my opinion, as I've said earlier, East Cleveland should either be annexed by the city of Cleveland as a whole or not at all. Several years ago, there were serious talks of East Cleveland being annexed by Cleveland and Cleveland Heights. Of course, Cleveland Heights wanted to take the nice parts and leave Cleveland with the bad parts. Talks were dropped after that, and rightfully so. As a city of Cleveland resident, I would be completely against this kind of arrangement, as it screws the city over. The biggest things that East Cleveland has going for it are its assets (Forest Hill, Forest Hill Park, Nela Park, Windermere, etc.). For the city to annex East Cleveland without the assets defeats the purpose of annexing it. It also drops the value that the city would get in annexation and, from the city of Cleveland perspective, make annexation pointless. Doing it like some have suggested would import all of East Cleveland's problems and export all of its assets. That's stupid. If East Cleveland and Cleveland Heights want to make some sort of merger or annexation agreement between the two of them, that's their business. But I'm not interested in seeing the city of Cleveland get screwed by being in a no-win situation, which is what would happen if CH took all the assets and leave us with the crap. So I still stand by my original point: all of it or none of it.

Agreed. I think the CSU "Campus Village" is a good project. Its going to add, what, 300 more apartments to the downtown market (which is DEFINITELY needed)? And most importantly, these aren't dorms just made for CSU students. They're made for professors, downtown workers, and essentially anyone who can afford them. Its a great thing, in my book. Could it have been better? Of course. But don't let perfect be the enemy of good. "Campus Village" is a good plan. Not perfect, but good. And I think Euclid Commons are fine, btw. Don't understand the big fuss over those either. They aren't perfect either, but they're good.

^I agree. I think the proper thing to do is to take as "wait and see" approach because the design and the layout of this thing will really make a difference as to whether it succeeds or not. But for people to shut the idea down before we even see the full plan is sad and is indicative of the caveman stereotypes some still think of whenever public transportation is brought into the conversation. Because, of course, Public Transportation attracts "those people". Its sad, because I think this COULD (keyword: could) be a great idea. And it'd be a shame to see it killed by elitism. Now we may see all the details and decide, "gee, this thing really sucks". But WAIT for the details! Don't shut it down out of hand. Calling it "misguided" when we don't even have all the details yet is, well, "misguided".

I LOVE this plan. Its a smart plan with a good direction.

I think this could be either really good or really bad, depending on the design and if its truly transit oriented development. I love the idea of having these transit centers that resemble airport terminals like the STJ transit center somewhat is. If they make sure that the design and location are right and that its integrated with the neighborhood, this could work. Plus, it does the all-important goal of freeing up Public Square, which we desperately need.

I agree about the design. Its fine to me.

The movie theater part really piques my interest. Does anyone know anything more about that? Is it going to be a Detroit-Shoreway style theater or a more mainstream type?

I LOVE the new Cleveland School of the Arts design. Makes it look a little bit like a college campus. Does anyone know when this project is supposed to begin?

Here in Cleveland, we'd be stupid if we didn't at least attempt to go after this. Sears officials have said that they haven't ruled out Greater Cleveland, which is a good thing. We should do what it takes to get this company in Ohio first, and then in Cleveland. Anywhere in Ohio, I'd be happy, but Cleveland would be the best. Hey, states have been doing this to us for years. Its about time we start returning the favor in Ohio. Turnabout is fair play.

The short answer is...no.

The convention center was woefully outdated. You have to have an updated convention center to compete. The convention center didn't need to be renovated. It needed to be demolished and replaced. The city didn't have the money to do this. So, to me, the Medical Mart was just a reason to get what we really needed, a convention center that wasn't so hopelessly out of date. I posted this article earlier but here's another piece of it to show that this was the right thing to do: "Even two years before the city's new convention center is finished, big industrial organizations already are signing up to use it. And when they do, some shows will bring thousands of people to town, Positively Cleveland says. It wasn't that the industrial groups ever had a beef with this shrunken old manufacturing giant; there just weren't good places to hold conventions here, Positively Cleveland leaders say. While the convention center, medical mart and the area's industrial base are big draws, comments from those planning to hold shows here indicate Cleveland has made other bright moves in recent times that are boosting its attractiveness as a convention center. They cite the entertainment- related development of East Fourth Street and the Warehouse District as draws, along with the hotels, sports venues and the new casino that's planned. Mr. Ashburn said his iron and steel group's members, who last visited for a trade show in 2006, love coming to Cleveland, and so does he. The hotels, restaurants, nightclubs and tourist destinations are all top-notch, he said, and members want to come back. Mr. Miller of the American Chemical Society's Rubber Division agreed. “People love Cleveland, especially the international travelers,” he said. “The nightlife, the things to see, the culture, the restaurants — it's just perfect.” “Every other city in our competition set has had a new convention center,” Mr. Julian said. “Now, we're the ones seeing a resurgence of activity because we're getting a new facility.”"http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110822/FREE/308229962 We need to be competitive. You can't do that with an old, outdated facility. Sprucing it up isn't good enough. The demand is there, obviously, as events are already coming back. A new convention center was absolutely necessary if you want a more stable downtown market and not just one driven by sports events. This isn't a cure all, but its one piece of the puzzle to become a 24 hour city. This is important. The Medical Mart is extra.

Couldn't agree more

Exactly! Its common knowledge that we BADLY needed a new Convention Center. Our convention center is so old its amazing we got any business at all before convention business finally dried up here in 2006. The convention center was needed and we're already starting to see organizations commit to holding conventions here almost 2 years before the building even opens. This was the key element. The Medical Mart concept is just an extra, in my opinion. I hope it works. I want it to work. But the most important thing to the city is that convention center.

To respond: You say being urban has nothing to do with demographics. Technically, you're right. Culturally, you're absolutely wrong on that. Crocker Park in Westlake, for example, is astroturfing an urban setting. Does that make it "urban" in the cultural sense? Of course not. There is a difference in CULTURE between urban cities and suburban cities, in most cases. You can't deny that. That's what makes them different. They're SUPPOSED to be different. As I said before, I want to live in Cleveland. Not Pepper Pike or Westlake. If I wanted to live in Westlake, I'd move to Westlake. Second, I have a fundamental problem with the idea that you shouldn't build a mixed income development in a mixed income community. That doesn't make sense to me. It'd be different if this was Edgewater or downtown, where more wealthy people tend to live. I'd be against a mixed income development there because it doesn't fit the community there. Here it does. So it makes no sense to say, "no you shouldn't have a mixed income development in a mixed income community". That's what it is! That doesn't make sense to me. Third, I laughed when you made the "social justice" comment. I am far from a social justice person. You have no idea. I'm not an ultra right wing Rush type, but I'm probably more center-right than half of the people on this site. It's not about that. It's about being disrespectful to the people that already live here and treating them like characters on "Cityville" that can be rearranged at will instead of real people. Figuratively speaking, if, say, a family member wanted to come into your house, you'd be generally okay with that. But if they start rearranging your furniture and telling you, "This is my house now. You have to go", you're going to have a problem with that. That's what I'm saying. I'm for development. You're not going to find many more development-friendly people in this town than me. I support development projects that even many on this forum do not support and I've gotten into tussles with them over it. So I don't fundamentally have a problem with development or building things to bring people back to the city. I do, however, have a problem with people coming back and then giving the middle finger to those that never left. You'll probably disagree with this as well, but I believe that the people who want to live only around people in their own income bracket will probably never want to move to Cleveland anyway. I never remember judging my neighbors by, "gee I wonder if Jane Doe next door makes more or less money than me?" Its always been about, "I wonder if Jane Doe is a good person". Income has little to do with that. I've met some nice middle and lower class people and I've met some rich jerks and vice versa. So I again say that those who judge their neighbors by what income bracket they're in will likely never move to Cleveland anyway. Finally, the debate has never been about whether we should be attracting wealthy people AT ALL. Of course we should. That's a no-brainer. There shouldn't be any debating that. But the issue is, what do you do with the people that are left? Do you do things like build mixed income developments in mixed income neighborhoods and allow a rising tide to lift all boats? Or do you tell those people, "sorry, but this isn't for you"? I don't think that's who we are. We weren't that when Rockefeller was here. And we shouldn't be that now. We're better than that. I want Cleveland to be a better Cleveland, not a bigger Beachwood. And if you see it differently, then we just have a fundamental difference of opinion. And that's okay too. :)

I was never necessarily sold on the Med Mart idea, but I believed, and I still believe, that the new convention center alone made it worth it. Obviously I want the Medical Mart to be successful, but I'm much more interested in the success of the Convention Center, for reasons like this: New convention home luring industrial groups back Even two years before the city's new convention center is finished, big industrial organizations already are signing up to use it. And when they do, some shows will bring thousands of people to town, Positively Cleveland says. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20110822/FREE/308229962

To me, there is no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square. I keep hoping that a company headquartered here, but with offices spread all over downtown or the rest of the city, would want to consolidate them in one place like Sohio did in 1985. Maybe that's Sherwin Williams. Maybe that's someone else, I don't know. But considering that several downtown office buildings are, or will soon be at least 50% vacant, I think those ought to be absorbed first (such as by the county) before adding new inventory. I agree, on both the points about there being no higher-profile address downtown than Public Square and that we also have to make sure that the vacancy in some of those downtown buildings go down as well. But I think that this could still be built if the tenants coming into the building were new to Cleveland or, at least, new to downtown. This way, it wouldn't be negatively impacting the vacancy rates. When I look at some of the businesses in the area, the one that I could think of that would be similar to Sohio would be, to me, Progressive Insurance. Now, I know that there was some dust up some years back which stopped this from happening then, but maybe Peter B. Lewis is still interested? Don't know. But that would be a perfect big tenant for this building (which would likely be named after them too). I also think that luring Clear Channel Communications from the suburbs to move their radio stations and offices downtown would probably be another good option. Locally, there seems to be that sort of movement happening anyway, with Good Karma Broadcasting's (WKNR) relocation from Broadview Heights(?) to downtown a few years ago and 104.9's relocation from Warrensville Heights to the Idea Center at the beginning of this year. I think almost every major radio company in our market is in Cleveland except Clear Channel, Salem Communications (which would also be a good target) and Radio Disney. So maybe we start there. But Progressive and Clear Channel would be my top two.

Yes, the city needs more upper income people, but there is a way to do that without being exclusionary. That's not who we are, nor should it ever be. Cities are an amalgamation of people of all different income levels, races, ethnicities, etc. That's what makes cities DIFFERENT from suburbs. Any good urban city is both racially diverse and economically diverse. Without that, you're not an urban city. You're Pepper Pike. Not that there's anything wrong with Pepper Pike per se, but I live in an urban city for a reason. If I wanted to live in Pepper Pike, I'd MOVE to Pepper Pike. The other point is you have to remember what is still there. That neighborhood is not completely upper income. So if you want to be able to get a kind of project like this done, it's smart to attempt to get buy-in from the rest of the neighborhood. If the people already in the neighborhood believe that a project is best for EVERYONE in the neighborhood, they'll fight for it and advocate for it and support it and, most importantly, protect it. Thumbing a nose at the people who currently live there and saying basically "screw you. This isn't for you" is not a good way to win friends and influence people. (And I'm not saying that you're doing that. I'm just stating in general) Also, whats WRONG fundamentally with mixed income? If you're an upper income person and your neighbor is a good neighbor, doesn't tear stuff up, isn't disrespectful, and is a decent person, why should you care if they make less than you do or vice versa? The point is not the income of the people who will live in this project. It's the character of the people that matters. It shouldn't matter if its mixed income. I remember someone from Chicago telling me that the best thing about Cleveland is that, with some exceptions, the people don't tend to segregate themselves like that. You can go downtown and, for the most part, see upper income and low to moderate income people frequenting the same establishments, going to the same places, etc. That's partially because of our low cost of living, but its also because of our attitude. That's a good thing. I don't want to be just one large Pepper Pike. So this being mixed income should be looked at as a good thing (depending on the TYPE of people that come there) and its better than it being completely lower income. And before anyone asks, no I don't think that every neighborhood should be mixed income. Edgewater is Edgewater for a reason and it should keep being Edgewater. Downtown is downtown for a reason. Adding mixed income projects downtown would probably be a bad idea. But in some of these other individual neighborhoods like a Gordon Square, I see no problem with it. There's a lot of things about Chicago that I think we as a city should replicate. What's not one of them is some of the cultural and economic divides they have among their own people. No we aren't perfect either, but that kind of divide creates more problems than it fixes.

I like the idea too. Like you, I'm also for almost anything that lights up. I don't see the big problem with it. It funky and different. So why not do it? We could use a little more "funky".

Nobody? Lots of earth neing moved here. Doesn't seem like a resurfacing. The structure immediately to the NW is now an ethnic (slovenean?) based assisted living facility and I believe they tore down the two houses beteen that and Save-a-lot to create a more *dramatic* entrance with ample parking in the front. Hopefully, that opened the lot formerly used as parking for a better purpose? By upgrading nursing home, Cleveland's Slovenian community preserves the old world for its elders: Global Village "The home broke ground on a $9-million renovation that will anchor the 150-bed complex on Neff Road in Collinwood for at least another generation. Work has begun on adding a rehabilitation center and building a new wing of 66 private rooms, which will replace outdated, shared rooms. The aim is to compete with the new senior complexes of the suburbs without moving there, said Philip Hrvatin, vice president of the home's board of trustees. He said trustees considered several suburban locations, including building on land they own in Concord Township, before deciding on the old neighborhood." http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/08/by_upgrading_a_nursing_home_th.html

Willyboy, look, I'm not going to hijack the thread and get into a fistfight about this, but just to respond, even in your explanation, you did it again (I/we have been specifically talking about black hip/hop culture and clubs (The type that glorifies violence, thus why these clubs always end up having shootings associated with them)) Note that you did not say "Gangsta Rap" or any other subgenre of hip-hop culture where this behavior is more common. You said "HIP-HOP culture". You then got a little more specific in the parentheses but you still indicted the entire culture. That's what I'm saying. Don't paint the entire culture with a broad brush based on behavior that predominately comes from one subgenre. I'm just sayin'. :)

Because that's a very broad and unfair way to describe the "culture". What about Christian Hip-Hop? They're part of the culture. What about conscious hip-hop artists or alternative hip-hop artists like The Roots? They're part of the culture. What I think the person was objecting to is this painting of hip-hop culture with such a broad brush when the reality is that the culture is much more diverse than I think you're giving it credit for. Its not really about being a "fan". You don't have to be a fan. But it was painting hip-hop culture with just as broad of a brush as people used to do to Rock and Roll in years past as well as what was done to Jazz in the 1920s in some circles . It was unfair then and its unfair now. Just sayin'. :)

You got that right! Pure elegance. Since this has been, for the most part, a restoration, it is fantastic to see how Clevelanders used to live. So classy. So magnificent. Glad to see we're rediscovering ourselves.

Having a B-Spot downtown would be a fantastic thing if, as others have said before, its easily accessible from the street. I think you're on to something though. It makes the most sense for it to be in the Welcome Center.