inlovewithCLE

Boston, New York, San Francisco, Denver, and Miami? Boston's a weird situation because of the way government in New England works (and their lack of county government, I believe). I'll refresh my memory on that one and get back to you. New York is New York. Did the merger, which happened in the early 1900s, play any significant role in making that region the international behemoth that it is today? I doubt it, though it does present a nice correlation/causation point for your argument. Denver and San Francisco also "merged" with parts of their respective surrounding counties (while other parts broke off and formed their own counties). In the case of both cities, this happened over a century ago, very earlier in their history and development. Not sure if there's much for us to learn from these situations because of their respective geographic sizes and historical situations. To me, these two examples are more similar to being independent cities in their own right, even though they're both technically consolidated city-counties. But if Cleveland and a couple of other inner-ring suburbs wanted to break off and form their own new city-county, I'm sure that could be arranged. I don't think it would make any difference either way. As for Miami-Dade, this is probably one of the more realistic models for Cuyahoga County to consider. Cities retaining independence and having the choice of whether or not to opt-in to having the county provide city level services. That wasn't quite the full list. I posted the full list above that. * Municipality of Anchorage, Alaska[3] (City and Borough are consolidated forming a unified government) * City and County of Broomfield, Colorado[4][5] (Town of Broomfield incorporated June 1, 1961. Consolidated City and County of Broomfield created November 15, 2001, from the incorporated City of Broomfield and portions of Boulder, Adams, Jefferson, and Weld Counties.) * City and County of Denver, Colorado[4] (Denver City, Colorado Territory, incorporated November 7, 1861. Denver served as the Arapahoe County Seat until November 15, 1902, when Arapahoe County was split into the new consolidated City and County of Denver, the new Adams County, and the renamed South Arapahoe County.) * City and County of Honolulu, Hawaii[6] * City and Borough of Juneau, Alaska * Municipality and County of Los Alamos, New Mexico[7] * City of New Orleans and Orleans Parish, Louisiana (The City of New Orleans has always served as Orleans Parish's government, though they initially were not coterminous. The city and parish have also annexed parts of neighboring Jefferson Parish.) * City and County of San Francisco, California (The City of San Francisco was the seat of San Francisco County until 1856, when the county was split into the consolidated City and County of San Francisco in the north, with the remainder of old San Francisco County becoming the new County of San Mateo.) Philadelphia and Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania — Their borders have been conterminous since 1854, and the government structures were consolidated in 1952. The county still exists as a separate entity within Pennsylvania, but the functions of the county are generally administered by the city. # Jacksonville and Duval County, Florida (four incorporated places within Duval County - the cities of Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach, and Atlantic Beach and the town of Baldwin - retain separate governments; all other rural land is incorporated by Jacksonville and so the entire county is incorporated) # Kansas City and Wyandotte County, Kansas (this "Unified Government" contains Kansas City, Edwardsville, most of Bonner Springs, and roughly half of Lake Quivira; a county relationship is maintained with the rest of the communities within the county) # Miami and Miami-Dade County, Florida operate under a federated two-tier government similar to consolidated city-county relationship where the county government operates as a superseding entity of county affairs and lower-tier incorporated municipalities operate civil and community services # Louisville and Jefferson County, Kentucky[15] (all cities in pre-merger Jefferson County, other than Louisville, retain separate identities and some governmental functions, but all participate fully in the county-wide governing body, Louisville Metro Council) # Nashville and Davidson County, Tennessee (seven communities within Davidson County retain separate governments, although all participate in the metropolitan government in a two-tier system) # Athens and Clarke County, Georgia (one community entirely within Clarke County and another partially within the county retain a separate government) # Augusta and Richmond County, Georgia (two communities within Richmond County retain separate governments) # Baton Rouge and East Baton Rouge Parish, Louisiana (City of Baton Rouge retains separate city limits, and official census population only includes this area) # Camden County, North Carolina (county with no incorporated municipalities, apart from a small portion of Elizabeth City, re-organizing into a single unified government)[13] # Indianapolis and Marion County, Indiana[14] (four communities within Marion County retain separate governments: see Unigov) # New York City, New York[12] has been coextensive with an amalgamation of five counties since 1898, each of which is also a borough and more generally known as such: * New York County (Manhattan) (New York County alone was coextensive with New York City until 1898) * Bronx County (The Bronx) (New York County included what is now Bronx County from 1898 until the latter's creation in 1916) * Kings County (Brooklyn) * Richmond County (Staten Island) * Queens County (Queens) Lexington and Fayette County, Kentucky[1] # Columbus and Muscogee County, Georgia # Carson City and Ormsby County, Nevada A report was released in April 2008 recommending the merger of the governments of the City of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and that of Allegheny County. This plan has been endorsed by the mayor of Pittsburgh and the Chief Executive of Allegheny County, but needs approval by the City and County councils and from the state legislature before a referendum can be put forth for the voters to approve such a merger. The City of Boston and Suffolk County, Massachusetts operated with a consolidated government for most of the twentieth century with Boston providing office space, auditors, budget, personnel and financial oversight for Suffolk County. This was not a true consolidation because three municipalities – Chelsea, Revere and Winthrop – were never annexed into Boston and remained separate jurisdictions within Suffolk County; however, the county was in control of the City of Boston by law. The special relationship between Boston and Suffolk County ended in 1999 as part of the gradual abolition of county governments statewide with all county employees and powers transferred to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts control. The only remaining powers and duties for the City of Boston in regards to the county is regarding the Suffolk County Register of Deeds where the city council issues the ceremonial oath of office as well as calls for a meeting to hold a special election to fill the office should there be a failure to elect someone to the office or a vacancy occurs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? You're playing games with numbers (which shouldn't be necessary if we were doing so well) and we both know it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas No matter what kind of metric you choose to use, Metro Miami is significantly larger than Greater Cleveland. It is laughable, absolutely laughable, to try to claim that they are the same size or even almost the same size. First of all, I'm not playing games with the numbers. You just don't like the answer. The Miami Metropolitan Area actually has 2,496,435 residents. Comparing metropolitan area to metropolitan area, the Cleveland Metropolitan Area has 2,077,240 residents. The South Florida MSA is determined by combining the Miami Metropolitan Area with the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach Metropolitan Areas, which then equals 5,564,635 residents. In order to have a comparable equivalent, you must then look at Northeast Ohio as a whole, which has between 4.5 and 5 million residents, depending on who you include. So its laughable, absolutely laughable that you would be intellectually dishonest in your argument by comparing the South Florida MSA (which combines THREE metropolitan areas) with the Cleveland MSA alone and then claim that I'm fudging the numbers when YOU aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA Who here is being intellectually dishonest? That 5.5 million number is Miami's MSA. That 4.5 million number that you keep throwing around is the combination of multiple Northeast Ohio CSAs. I'm going to assume that you know the difference between an MSA and a CSA and in doing so will quickly realize the err of your ways. Or at the very least anyone else on this board who is familiar with the two will see why what you're trying to do in your comparison makes no sense. If you don't like the numbers, don't get angry with me, get angry with the Census Bureau. The data they use points strongly to the fact that Miami's 5.5 million is one large MSA. While Cleveland's CSA is a little more than half the size. I figured your reading comprehension would be a bit flawed. The Miami metropolitan area consists of three distinct metropolitan divisions, subdividing the region into three divisions according to the region's three counties: Miami-Dade County, Broward County, and Palm Beach County. Metropolitan Divisions 2010 Census Population Miami--Miami Beach—Kendall - 2,496,435 Fort Lauderdale--Pompano Beach—Deerfield Beach - 1,748,066 West Palm Beach--Boca Raton—Boynton Beach - 1,320,134 Miami MSA - 5,564,635 (For those watching at home, that's all of the above numbers COMBINED) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA :? So comparing apples to apples, what are those numbers again? Oh yeah Miami-Miami Beach-Kendall - 2,496,435 Cleveland - 2,077,240 Again I say, :? Most of the largest 8-10 metropolitan areas are split into Metropolitan Divisions. These are not the same thing as MSAs. The fact that Cleveland doesn't have any MDs and that you cherry-picked the one for central Miami doesn't improve your argument one iota. Basically what you keep trying to do is compare the cities based on the most generous, imaginary definition of Greater Cleveland and the least generous redefinition of Greater Miami that you can find. Here's a list of the largest MSAs and their Metropolitan Divisions: http://www.bls.gov/sae/saemd.htm The Census Bureau knows what they're doing. They recognize that, for example, the relationship that San Francisco has with Oakland, Detroit has with Troy, and yes, Miami has with West Palm Beach, is much stronger than anything Cleveland has with Sandusky, Youngstown, Canton, or any of the other far out areas you tried to include in your definition of "Greater Cleveland." Again, I don't always agree with the Census Bureau, but their numbers and definitions are, for the most part, fairly accurate. Whether comparing MSA to MSA, or MSA to CSA (which is probably more accurate for Cleveland), Miami is still much, much bigger. I'm not cherry picking numbers. I'm making the apples to apples comparison that you won't do. When I originally compared the populations of both city propers, you told me that that didn't matter.So I say ok, then let's compare area to area, roughly. Then that doesn't matter. You keep moving the goalposts. It was never fun playing sports as a kid with people who paid by "my ball, my rules". I want to compare apples to apples, you want to compare apples to bricks. Oh stop it. You think the Census Bureau uses some arbitrary, set geographic area for defining and comparing MSAs? Sorry, but that's just ridiculous and it's not how it works. you're moving the goalposts. On one hand you say the population of the city propers don't matter but when it comes to the larger areas, you want to apply the numbers without any context whatsoever. Context is an interesting thing. You should try it sometime. A) I'm not moving the goalposts. I've consistently referred to the Census Bureau's MSA and CSA statistics, which are generally regarded as incredibly fair for apple-to-apples comparisons. B) I've been talking about metropolitan areas during the entire conversation from the first post I made that you took offense to. Looking at anything involving city proper numbers only is absolutely pointless. The region, as a whole, is what matters. C) Getting this discussion back on track, here's the overarching point: In looking at the largest metropolitan areas (excluding Miami if you like), you will find that very few have completely consolidated government systems and most have large, strong suburbs of the primate city. It's not a problem for them and would not be a problem for us. Scroll up a little bit and see the list that I posted of all the cities that have some version of consolidated government

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? You're playing games with numbers (which shouldn't be necessary if we were doing so well) and we both know it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas No matter what kind of metric you choose to use, Metro Miami is significantly larger than Greater Cleveland. It is laughable, absolutely laughable, to try to claim that they are the same size or even almost the same size. First of all, I'm not playing games with the numbers. You just don't like the answer. The Miami Metropolitan Area actually has 2,496,435 residents. Comparing metropolitan area to metropolitan area, the Cleveland Metropolitan Area has 2,077,240 residents. The South Florida MSA is determined by combining the Miami Metropolitan Area with the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach Metropolitan Areas, which then equals 5,564,635 residents. In order to have a comparable equivalent, you must then look at Northeast Ohio as a whole, which has between 4.5 and 5 million residents, depending on who you include. So its laughable, absolutely laughable that you would be intellectually dishonest in your argument by comparing the South Florida MSA (which combines THREE metropolitan areas) with the Cleveland MSA alone and then claim that I'm fudging the numbers when YOU aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA Who here is being intellectually dishonest? That 5.5 million number is Miami's MSA. That 4.5 million number that you keep throwing around is the combination of multiple Northeast Ohio CSAs. I'm going to assume that you know the difference between an MSA and a CSA and in doing so will quickly realize the err of your ways. Or at the very least anyone else on this board who is familiar with the two will see why what you're trying to do in your comparison makes no sense. If you don't like the numbers, don't get angry with me, get angry with the Census Bureau. The data they use points strongly to the fact that Miami's 5.5 million is one large MSA. While Cleveland's CSA is a little more than half the size. I figured your reading comprehension would be a bit flawed. The Miami metropolitan area consists of three distinct metropolitan divisions, subdividing the region into three divisions according to the region's three counties: Miami-Dade County, Broward County, and Palm Beach County. Metropolitan Divisions 2010 Census Population Miami--Miami Beach—Kendall - 2,496,435 Fort Lauderdale--Pompano Beach—Deerfield Beach - 1,748,066 West Palm Beach--Boca Raton—Boynton Beach - 1,320,134 Miami MSA - 5,564,635 (For those watching at home, that's all of the above numbers COMBINED) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA :? So comparing apples to apples, what are those numbers again? Oh yeah Miami-Miami Beach-Kendall - 2,496,435 Cleveland - 2,077,240 Again I say, :? Most of the largest 8-10 metropolitan areas are split into Metropolitan Divisions. These are not the same thing as MSAs. The fact that Cleveland doesn't have any MDs and that you cherry-picked the one for central Miami doesn't improve your argument one iota. Basically what you keep trying to do is compare the cities based on the most generous, imaginary definition of Greater Cleveland and the least generous redefinition of Greater Miami that you can find. Here's a list of the largest MSAs and their Metropolitan Divisions: http://www.bls.gov/sae/saemd.htm The Census Bureau knows what they're doing. They recognize that, for example, the relationship that San Francisco has with Oakland, Detroit has with Troy, and yes, Miami has with West Palm Beach, is much stronger than anything Cleveland has with Sandusky, Youngstown, Canton, or any of the other far out areas you tried to include in your definition of "Greater Cleveland." Again, I don't always agree with the Census Bureau, but their numbers and definitions are, for the most part, fairly accurate. Whether comparing MSA to MSA, or MSA to CSA (which is probably more accurate for Cleveland), Miami is still much, much bigger. I'm not cherry picking numbers. I'm making the apples to apples comparison that you won't do. When I originally compared the populations of both city propers, you told me that that didn't matter.So I say ok, then let's compare area to area, roughly. Then that doesn't matter. You keep moving the goalposts. It was never fun playing sports as a kid with people who paid by "my ball, my rules". I want to compare apples to apples, you want to compare apples to bricks. Oh stop it. You think the Census Bureau uses some arbitrary, set geographic area for defining and comparing MSAs? Sorry, but that's just ridiculous and it's not how it works. you're moving the goalposts. On one hand you say the population of the city propers don't matter but when it comes to the larger areas, you want to apply the numbers without any context whatsoever. Context is an interesting thing. You should try it sometime.

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? You're playing games with numbers (which shouldn't be necessary if we were doing so well) and we both know it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas No matter what kind of metric you choose to use, Metro Miami is significantly larger than Greater Cleveland. It is laughable, absolutely laughable, to try to claim that they are the same size or even almost the same size. First of all, I'm not playing games with the numbers. You just don't like the answer. The Miami Metropolitan Area actually has 2,496,435 residents. Comparing metropolitan area to metropolitan area, the Cleveland Metropolitan Area has 2,077,240 residents. The South Florida MSA is determined by combining the Miami Metropolitan Area with the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach Metropolitan Areas, which then equals 5,564,635 residents. In order to have a comparable equivalent, you must then look at Northeast Ohio as a whole, which has between 4.5 and 5 million residents, depending on who you include. So its laughable, absolutely laughable that you would be intellectually dishonest in your argument by comparing the South Florida MSA (which combines THREE metropolitan areas) with the Cleveland MSA alone and then claim that I'm fudging the numbers when YOU aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA Who here is being intellectually dishonest? That 5.5 million number is Miami's MSA. That 4.5 million number that you keep throwing around is the combination of multiple Northeast Ohio CSAs. I'm going to assume that you know the difference between an MSA and a CSA and in doing so will quickly realize the err of your ways. Or at the very least anyone else on this board who is familiar with the two will see why what you're trying to do in your comparison makes no sense. If you don't like the numbers, don't get angry with me, get angry with the Census Bureau. The data they use points strongly to the fact that Miami's 5.5 million is one large MSA. While Cleveland's CSA is a little more than half the size. I figured your reading comprehension would be a bit flawed. The Miami metropolitan area consists of three distinct metropolitan divisions, subdividing the region into three divisions according to the region's three counties: Miami-Dade County, Broward County, and Palm Beach County. Metropolitan Divisions 2010 Census Population Miami--Miami Beach—Kendall - 2,496,435 Fort Lauderdale--Pompano Beach—Deerfield Beach - 1,748,066 West Palm Beach--Boca Raton—Boynton Beach - 1,320,134 Miami MSA - 5,564,635 (For those watching at home, that's all of the above numbers COMBINED) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA :? So comparing apples to apples, what are those numbers again? Oh yeah Miami-Miami Beach-Kendall - 2,496,435 Cleveland - 2,077,240 Again I say, :? Most of the largest 8-10 metropolitan areas are split into Metropolitan Divisions. These are not the same thing as MSAs. The fact that Cleveland doesn't have any MDs and that you cherry-picked the one for central Miami doesn't improve your argument one iota. Basically what you keep trying to do is compare the cities based on the most generous, imaginary definition of Greater Cleveland and the least generous redefinition of Greater Miami that you can find. Here's a list of the largest MSAs and their Metropolitan Divisions: http://www.bls.gov/sae/saemd.htm The Census Bureau knows what they're doing. They recognize that, for example, the relationship that San Francisco has with Oakland, Detroit has with Troy, and yes, Miami has with West Palm Beach, is much stronger than anything Cleveland has with Sandusky, Youngstown, Canton, or any of the other far out areas you tried to include in your definition of "Greater Cleveland." Again, I don't always agree with the Census Bureau, but their numbers and definitions are, for the most part, fairly accurate. Whether comparing MSA to MSA, or MSA to CSA (which is probably more accurate for Cleveland), Miami is still much, much bigger. I'm not cherry picking numbers. I'm making the apples to apples comparison that you won't do. When I originally compared the populations of both city propers, you told me that that didn't matter.So I say ok, then let's compare area to area, roughly. Then that doesn't matter. You keep moving the goalposts. It was never fun playing sports as a kid with people who paid by "my ball, my rules". I want to compare apples to apples, you want to compare apples to bricks.

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? You're playing games with numbers (which shouldn't be necessary if we were doing so well) and we both know it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas No matter what kind of metric you choose to use, Metro Miami is significantly larger than Greater Cleveland. It is laughable, absolutely laughable, to try to claim that they are the same size or even almost the same size. First of all, I'm not playing games with the numbers. You just don't like the answer. The Miami Metropolitan Area actually has 2,496,435 residents. Comparing metropolitan area to metropolitan area, the Cleveland Metropolitan Area has 2,077,240 residents. The South Florida MSA is determined by combining the Miami Metropolitan Area with the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach Metropolitan Areas, which then equals 5,564,635 residents. In order to have a comparable equivalent, you must then look at Northeast Ohio as a whole, which has between 4.5 and 5 million residents, depending on who you include. So its laughable, absolutely laughable that you would be intellectually dishonest in your argument by comparing the South Florida MSA (which combines THREE metropolitan areas) with the Cleveland MSA alone and then claim that I'm fudging the numbers when YOU aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA Who here is being intellectually dishonest? That 5.5 million number is Miami's MSA. That 4.5 million number that you keep throwing around is the combination of multiple Northeast Ohio CSAs. I'm going to assume that you know the difference between an MSA and a CSA and in doing so will quickly realize the err of your ways. Or at the very least anyone else on this board who is familiar with the two will see why what you're trying to do in your comparison makes no sense. If you don't like the numbers, don't get angry with me, get angry with the Census Bureau. The data they use points strongly to the fact that Miami's 5.5 million is one large MSA. While Cleveland's CSA is a little more than half the size. I figured your reading comprehension would be a bit flawed. The Miami metropolitan area consists of three distinct metropolitan divisions, subdividing the region into three divisions according to the region's three counties: Miami-Dade County, Broward County, and Palm Beach County. Metropolitan Divisions 2010 Census Population Miami--Miami Beach—Kendall - 2,496,435 Fort Lauderdale--Pompano Beach—Deerfield Beach - 1,748,066 West Palm Beach--Boca Raton—Boynton Beach - 1,320,134 Miami MSA - 5,564,635 (For those watching at home, that's all of the above numbers COMBINED) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA :? So comparing apples to apples, what are those numbers again? Oh yeah Miami-Miami Beach-Kendall - 2,496,435 Cleveland - 2,077,240 Again I say, :?

Everything's a canard, huh? Good luck with that full-scale merger, because though it will never happen, even if it would, we'd still have the same anti-growth forces running this city into the ground. Not to mention all of the other unintended consequences of such a merger. I was going to accuse you of not reading my post, but it appears that you did read it and then you created some contradictory strawman argument in response. Clearly I do believe that 59 municipalities and 33 school districts is far too many. I've said as much many times over. I think it makes sense to cut that to about 15-20 municipalities and 10-12 school districts. If that's not enough, well I'm sorry, because I don't think you're going to get much better than that. You can argue the merits of a full-scale merger all you'd like (and I think it's a bad idea), but it's never going to happen anyways, so it's a moot point. Also, your point about connecting downtown to University Circle is hilarious. Every foot of that stretch of road is located within the City of Cleveland. If that was so important (and I'm not convinced that it was, because there was already bus service), ask the people who've been running Cleveland into the ground for the past 50 years why it didn't happen sooner. And these are the people you want running the entire region?! The Downtown/University Circle thing was brought up to make a point that it is regressive, backwards thinking that caused it. When the city's population spread out, that mentality didn't go away, obviously. It was just exported.

If I am understanding correctly - aside from "more efficient local gov't (which I agree could be a plus, where it makes sense) - Regionalism will help resolve city decay and give more people opportunity to succeed. The fragmented municipalities has allowed people with resources and the ability to influence change leave the core city behind to rot. If they had stayed, things wouldn't be as bad, people would have more opportunity, and all would be well. Collapsing everyone back into one single government will fix that. Yet in Cleveland Heights, where those people exist with their resources and ability to influence change, why are there still parts that aren't taking advantage of the opportunity they have? Schools are good. Community is full of people they can learn from, be connected to, and gain an opportunity. Yet it seems the few bad apples are causing more problems than those with all of the resources are able to remove. And what's the ratio here? 10:1? 20:1? What happens if you annex East Cleveland and it shrinks to 5:1? The majority isn't able to lift the problem population as it is now, what makes anyone think that if you add in an additional volume of problems everything will be fine because the local government is consolidated? Problems still exist in suburbs that have resources and opportunity. The argument for regionalism is that all it takes to make people into good citizens is resources and opportunity. If that's the case, then everyone should be doing pretty well for themselves in Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, and even Solon. But it's just not the case. People in those citites are fighting now to keep their city what it was/is. But at some point, they get sick of the knuckleheads and move to a place where they don't have to deal with it anymore (and somehow get blamed for the problem because they left the city behind to rot). I posted this earlier, but your argument totally reminds me of the quote from the pastor of the Old Stone Church so I'll post it again... "I’ve been thinking about the thoughts of the late Yale scholar, Letty Russell, who once compared the city to a battered woman: The city is beaten and bruised, isolated, abandoned, and then blamed as if she somehow did this to herself. How easy it is for us to take what we want from our city – jobs, resources, entertainment – while disavowing any responsibility for her." http://hotcleveland.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bang-bang-love-your-city/ Oh, so people who work and play in Cleveland aren't giving anything back? Maybe if they started working and playing in the suburbs, too, you'd change your opinion. That isn't the point and you know it. No I have no problem with those who work and play in the city of Cleveland. I DO however, have a problem with the arrogance of those who feel entitled to come into the city, take whatever they want from the city, and hold none of the responsibility to help fix its problems. Yes, I DO have a problem with that. A big problem. This entitlement attitude that you are SUPPOSED to just take everything good from the city but everything bad in the city is "their fault". So no, I welcome anyone to come into the city and enjoy what we have to offer. But I will never be okay with those same people not lifting a finger to help fix the problems and feeling like they have a RIGHT to just rape the city of its resources and hold no responsibility towards it. That's the point that the pastor of the Old Stone Church was making and that's what I was agreeing with. (Did you even read his post?)

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? You're playing games with numbers (which shouldn't be necessary if we were doing so well) and we both know it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_United_States_primary_census_statistical_areas http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_urban_areas No matter what kind of metric you choose to use, Metro Miami is significantly larger than Greater Cleveland. It is laughable, absolutely laughable, to try to claim that they are the same size or even almost the same size. First of all, I'm not playing games with the numbers. You just don't like the answer. The Miami Metropolitan Area actually has 2,496,435 residents. Comparing metropolitan area to metropolitan area, the Cleveland Metropolitan Area has 2,077,240 residents. The South Florida MSA is determined by combining the Miami Metropolitan Area with the Fort Lauderdale and West Palm Beach Metropolitan Areas, which then equals 5,564,635 residents. In order to have a comparable equivalent, you must then look at Northeast Ohio as a whole, which has between 4.5 and 5 million residents, depending on who you include. So its laughable, absolutely laughable that you would be intellectually dishonest in your argument by comparing the South Florida MSA (which combines THREE metropolitan areas) with the Cleveland MSA alone and then claim that I'm fudging the numbers when YOU aren't making an apples-to-apples comparison yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miami-Fort_Lauderdale-Pompano_Beach,_FL_MSA

Agreed. You and I said earlier that a large scale merger in this county would be preferred but would probably never happen. I think its obvious by as you say "the diverse and various characters on this board". The inner ring typically have more in common culturally than the outer ring anyway. So with that being said, who would you say are the top merger candidates in the parameters we mentioned? I say: East Cleveland Brooklyn Linndale Garfield Heights (although I doubt they'd do it. But the city is broke and has been in fiscal emergency since 2008. They SHOULD do it) Maybe Euclid. You?

I get tired of this argument - "it's not an excuse to do nothing". Who said "do nothing"? People are asking "why should we do this?" I mean, if I say "let's just kill everyone who is unemployed and over the age of 25 with no high school degree" and you argue against it, can I then say "well, we can't do nothing"? I think people here are just saying "we don't think that's necessarily the right thing to do. (BTW, Pittsburgh is still bankrupt as far as I know and people are flocking north from Dade county creating some of the most ridiculous sprawl on the east coast. So it hasn't exactly worked out for them either.) Btw, Wrong Again... We're back! Pittsburgh region rebounds economically says PRA; Brookings Institute concurs "The Washington, D.C. think tank, The Brookings Institution, shed a positive light on the local economy as well this week. Brookings ranked the Pittsburgh region as the eighth-strongest economy among 100 of the nation's largest metropolitan areas based on its strength through the recession." http://www.popcitymedia.com/innovationnews/wins031611.aspx?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+PopCity+%28Pop+City%29 And if that wasn't enough, this comes from the Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland... The Economic Outlook, Oil Prices, and Monetary Policy "Pittsburgh is an important part of my District, and I always look forward to visiting here. Over the past couple of years, I have been using Pittsburgh as an example of a city in my District that has revitalized itself. Currently, the Pittsburgh economy is performing better than the nation in terms of job creation and unemployment. I am not alone in singing your praises. As you may know, Pittsburgh has been recognized by both The Economist and Forbes as the most livable city in America. It has also been cited as the “best city to relocate to” and is currently among the top 10 “best cities to find a job.” Great people live here already, and great people want to move here because of the energy and enthusiasm this city offers. Your conference here today, with its focus on working across disciplines to expand corporate growth and finance, is another example of that Pittsburgh energy and enthusiasm. I am sure you have a lot of new information to take back with you, and I applaud your efforts." http://www.clevelandfed.org/For_the_Public/News_and_Media/Speeches/2011/Pianalto_20110331.cfm :?

If I am understanding correctly - aside from "more efficient local gov't (which I agree could be a plus, where it makes sense) - Regionalism will help resolve city decay and give more people opportunity to succeed. The fragmented municipalities has allowed people with resources and the ability to influence change leave the core city behind to rot. If they had stayed, things wouldn't be as bad, people would have more opportunity, and all would be well. Collapsing everyone back into one single government will fix that. Yet in Cleveland Heights, where those people exist with their resources and ability to influence change, why are there still parts that aren't taking advantage of the opportunity they have? Schools are good. Community is full of people they can learn from, be connected to, and gain an opportunity. Yet it seems the few bad apples are causing more problems than those with all of the resources are able to remove. And what's the ratio here? 10:1? 20:1? What happens if you annex East Cleveland and it shrinks to 5:1? The majority isn't able to lift the problem population as it is now, what makes anyone think that if you add in an additional volume of problems everything will be fine because the local government is consolidated? Problems still exist in suburbs that have resources and opportunity. The argument for regionalism is that all it takes to make people into good citizens is resources and opportunity. If that's the case, then everyone should be doing pretty well for themselves in Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, and even Solon. But it's just not the case. People in those citites are fighting now to keep their city what it was/is. But at some point, they get sick of the knuckleheads and move to a place where they don't have to deal with it anymore (and somehow get blamed for the problem because they left the city behind to rot). I posted this earlier, but your argument totally reminds me of the quote from the pastor of the Old Stone Church so I'll post it again... "I’ve been thinking about the thoughts of the late Yale scholar, Letty Russell, who once compared the city to a battered woman: The city is beaten and bruised, isolated, abandoned, and then blamed as if she somehow did this to herself. How easy it is for us to take what we want from our city – jobs, resources, entertainment – while disavowing any responsibility for her." http://hotcleveland.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bang-bang-love-your-city/ I saw your quote. What happends when you take the battered woman in, clean her up, give her a job, and she starts stealing from you? Cute strawman

If I am understanding correctly - aside from "more efficient local gov't (which I agree could be a plus, where it makes sense) - Regionalism will help resolve city decay and give more people opportunity to succeed. The fragmented municipalities has allowed people with resources and the ability to influence change leave the core city behind to rot. If they had stayed, things wouldn't be as bad, people would have more opportunity, and all would be well. Collapsing everyone back into one single government will fix that. Yet in Cleveland Heights, where those people exist with their resources and ability to influence change, why are there still parts that aren't taking advantage of the opportunity they have? Schools are good. Community is full of people they can learn from, be connected to, and gain an opportunity. Yet it seems the few bad apples are causing more problems than those with all of the resources are able to remove. And what's the ratio here? 10:1? 20:1? What happens if you annex East Cleveland and it shrinks to 5:1? The majority isn't able to lift the problem population as it is now, what makes anyone think that if you add in an additional volume of problems everything will be fine because the local government is consolidated? Problems still exist in suburbs that have resources and opportunity. The argument for regionalism is that all it takes to make people into good citizens is resources and opportunity. If that's the case, then everyone should be doing pretty well for themselves in Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, and even Solon. But it's just not the case. People in those citites are fighting now to keep their city what it was/is. But at some point, they get sick of the knuckleheads and move to a place where they don't have to deal with it anymore (and somehow get blamed for the problem because they left the city behind to rot). I posted this earlier, but your argument totally reminds me of the quote from the pastor of the Old Stone Church so I'll post it again... "I’ve been thinking about the thoughts of the late Yale scholar, Letty Russell, who once compared the city to a battered woman: The city is beaten and bruised, isolated, abandoned, and then blamed as if she somehow did this to herself. How easy it is for us to take what we want from our city – jobs, resources, entertainment – while disavowing any responsibility for her." http://hotcleveland.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bang-bang-love-your-city/

If I am understanding correctly - aside from "more efficient local gov't (which I agree could be a plus, where it makes sense) - Regionalism will help resolve city decay and give more people opportunity to succeed. The fragmented municipalities has allowed people with resources and the ability to influence change leave the core city behind to rot. If they had stayed, things wouldn't be as bad, people would have more opportunity, and all would be well. Collapsing everyone back into one single government will fix that. Yet in Cleveland Heights, where those people exist with their resources and ability to influence change, why are there still parts that aren't taking advantage of the opportunity they have? Schools are good. Community is full of people they can learn from, be connected to, and gain an opportunity. Yet it seems the few bad apples are causing more problems than those with all of the resources are able to remove. And what's the ratio here? 10:1? 20:1? What happens if you annex East Cleveland and it shrinks to 5:1? The majority isn't able to lift the problem population as it is now, what makes anyone think that if you add in an additional volume of problems everything will be fine because the local government is consolidated? Problems still exist in suburbs that have resources and opportunity. The argument for regionalism is that all it takes to make people into good citizens is resources and opportunity. If that's the case, then everyone should be doing pretty well for themselves in Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, and even Solon. But it's just not the case. People in those citites are fighting now to keep their city what it was/is. But at some point, they get sick of the knuckleheads and move to a place where they don't have to deal with it anymore (and somehow get blamed for the problem because they left the city behind to rot). If only it were that simple... We all acknowledge that education is the key right? That without a good education people become trapped in poverty, right.... Higher income districts score better on Ohio's school report cards: Statistical Snapshot Higher income Ohio school districts again did better than others on the Ohio school report cards released last week. Statistical Snapshot Here are the average household incomes for people living in districts receiving each grade: * Excellent with distinction: $70,158 * Excellent: $52,059 * Effective: $43,137 * Continuous improvement: $37,437 * Academic watch: $31,456 * Academic emergency: no districts received this grade in 2011 http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2011/08/higher_income_districts_score.html :?

Yeah, Greater Miami is "so" much bigger than us Miami MSA - In 2006, the area had an estimated 5,463,857 persons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Florida_metropolitan_area) "Northeast Ohio is home to approximately 4.5 million people, has a labor force of almost 2 million, and a gross regional product of more than US$134 billion. Other counties are sometimes considered to be in Northeast Ohio. These include Erie, Holmes, Huron and Tuscarawas counties, and their inclusion makes the total population of the entire northeastern section of Ohio well over 5 million people" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Cleveland) :? Fractured government is not the only problem, but that is still no excuse to do nothing. That's why nothing ever gets done in this county. This "well there's other stuff for us to do and we'll get back to it later" usually ends in nothing getting done. Saying that its not the biggest problem is simply an excuse to do nothing. Enough of that. That's the biggest canard around. No one's saying we don't have other problems, but if you think its healthy for a county of this size to have 59 municipalities then there's no point in even continuing this conversation past that point. It should be so obvious Stevie Wonder could see it. You say its time to stop focusing on large scale regionalism and instead focus on targeted mergers, but again that's a canard. If we can't even agree that we have too many municipalities then nothing will happen. Mergers on a small or large scale will not happen in this county because we're too stupid to do what so many other cities have been doing for years. The fact that Pittsburgh, a city similar to ours but have been more forward thinking as of late, is recommending merger with Allegheny County shows how far they've come and how far behind we are. The Mayor AND the County Executive have endorsed this. Obviously they see something we don't or refuse to see. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if we don't even examine the possibility of this, we're idiots. What you call "Realistic thinking" I call defeatism. What you call "realistic" I call "the reason why this area has only done the bare minimum for years". This kind of thinking is the reason why it took us 50 YEARS to connect downtown and University Circle. This kind of thinking is the reason why it took a major scandal and people going to jail for us to remake a county government that had been corrupt for at least the last 20 years. This go along to get along, don't rock the boat kind of thinking has failed us. It doesn't work. We need change. In all aspects. Everywhere. I love it when people say "I'm facing reality" while totally forgetting that you have the power to change that reality. When people say that, its usually an excuse to do nothing or to just nibble around the edges. There's been enough nibbling around the edges around here. We need change on all fronts. Finally, the "reality" point is funny because I'm saying that the "reality" of it is that this system is unsustainable. One way or the other, this will fall down. The question is whether you get in front of the train or you just stand there and let it run you over. Don't believe me? Municipalities may for first time consider a new chapter -- Chapter 9 bankruptcy William A. Currin, a member and past chairman of the Northeast Ohio Mayors and City Managers Association, sees the talk of bankruptcy — and the reasons it's happening — as more reason for Northeast Ohio government entities to regionalize in order to share the costs of infrastructure and dispatch centers, among other expenses. Kevin O'Brien, director of the Center for Public Management, a research center of the Maxine Goodman Levin College of Urban Affairs at Cleveland State University, shares Mr. Currin's view. He cautioned that local governments may not have seen the worst of their troubles, as property reappraisals in Cuyahoga County are due in 2012 and a lot of yet-unrecognized property tax losses may be realized then. http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110214/FREE/302149964

Ok well that makes me feel a little bit better. Lol. I just know how it goes when it comes to the waterfront. There's always been this conflict between industry and recreation that has held development up. I was all for the Port plan before this. It does still concern me a bit, but I'm not in full on panic mode now. Thanks :) lol

I hope all of you are right. Because we can't afford for a plan of 125-300 high end apartments to just disappear. That would be very, very bad.

The "where does it end" example you used is a bit extreme, don't you think? Anyway, in most cases, people are talking about an city-county merger. Everyone knows that. The fact of the matter is, and you "freely admit" this, 59 municipalities in this county is ridiculous. Big does not always equal inefficient and small does not always equal efficient. We have so many municipalities that it is inefficient itself. To me, the Cleveland "suburbs" should be viewed as places like Lake county, not 58 other municipalities in the same county. But a city-county merger will likely never happen here because we can't even agree to merge a couple of cities into Cleveland. If we can't even agree that East Cleveland shouldn't be there, then we're hopeless. Things will stay the way that they are until cities start going bankrupt.

I'm BEGGING someone, ANYONE, to make me feel better about this and not feel that this could be disasterous: Port Authority approves plan over developer's objection "Elements of the plan include: exploring a ferry service to Canada, finding uses for silt dredged from the Cuyahoga River, fixing the crumbling hillside along the Irishtown Bend section of the river, trying to attract container cargo from Montreal, consolidating port operations and promoting development from North Coast Harbor, and replacing river bulkheads. But Adam Fishman, vice president of Flats East Bank, said he and his boss Scott Wolstein are concerned about the future use of land directly north of where they plan to build 125-300 high-end apartments as part of phase II of their redevelopment project. An e-mail message sent from Wolstein to Port President Will Friedman on Tuesday suggests phase II could be in peril as a result of the plan." http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/09/port_authority_approves_plan_o.html

Because too many people with the means take the easy "short term gains" and bolt to the suburbs (or if they're already there, simply sever ties with the city) and take their money and energy with them, leaving those without means to rot, and then turn around and blame them for not improving their city instead of staying and helping to improve it themselves. That reminds me of this powerful quote from the pastor of the Old Stone Church downtown (who also lives downtown): "I’ve been thinking about the thoughts of the late Yale scholar, Letty Russell, who once compared the city to a battered woman: The city is beaten and bruised, isolated, abandoned, and then blamed as if she somehow did this to herself. How easy it is for us to take what we want from our city – jobs, resources, entertainment – while disavowing any responsibility for her." http://hotcleveland.wordpress.com/2011/06/03/bang-bang-love-your-city/

Perfect example of what I'm saying: "In seven consolidated city–county governments In the United States, the formerly independent incorporated places maintain some governmental powers. In these cities, which the Bureau of the Census calls "consolidated cities", statistics are recorded both for the entire consolidated government and for the component municipalities. A part of the consolidated government is called the "balance", which the Census Bureau defines as "the consolidated city minus the semi-independent incorporated places located within the consolidated city". These consolidated cities are: * Athens–Clarke County, Georgia * Augusta–Richmond County, Georgia * Butte-Silver Bow, Montana * Indianapolis, Indiana * Jacksonville-Duval County, Florida * Louisville-Jefferson County, Kentucky * Nashville-Davidson, Tennessee Consolidated since their creation * Municipality of Anchorage, Alaska (City and Borough are consolidated forming a unified government) * City and County of Broomfield, Colorado (Town of Broomfield incorporated June 1, 1961. Consolidated City and County of Broomfield created November 15, 2001, from the incorporated City of Broomfield and portions of Boulder, Adams, Jefferson, and Weld Counties.) * City and County of Denver, Colorado (Denver City, Colorado Territory, incorporated November 7, 1861. Denver served as the Arapahoe County Seat until November 15, 1902, when Arapahoe County was split into the new consolidated City and County of Denver, the new Adams County, and the renamed South Arapahoe County.) * City and County of Honolulu, Hawaii * City and Borough of Juneau, Alaska * Municipality and County of Los Alamos, New Mexico * City of New Orleans and Orleans Parish, Louisiana (The City of New Orleans has always served as Orleans Parish's government, though they initially were not coterminous. The city and parish have also annexed parts of neighboring Jefferson Parish.) * City and County of San Francisco, California (The City of San Francisco was the seat of San Francisco County until 1856, when the county was split into the consolidated City and County of San Francisco in the north, with the remainder of old San Francisco County becoming the new County of San Mateo.) Merged (I listed the biggest cities from this section) # Lexington and Fayette County, Kentucky # Philadelphia and Philadelphia County, Pennsylvania — Their borders have been conterminous since 1854, and the government structures were consolidated in 1952. The county still exists as a separate entity within Pennsylvania, but the functions of the county are generally administered by the city. Other * New York City, New York has been coextensive with an amalgamation of five counties since 1898, each of which is also a borough and more generally known as such: o New York County (Manhattan) (New York County alone was coextensive with New York City until 1898) o Bronx County (The Bronx) (New York County included what is now Bronx County from 1898 until the latter's creation in 1916) o Kings County (Brooklyn) o Richmond County (Staten Island) o Queens County (Queens) Merged with some independent municipalities * Athens and Clarke County, Georgia (one community entirely within Clarke County and another partially within the county retain a separate government) * Augusta and Richmond County, Georgia (two communities within Richmond County retain separate governments) * Baton Rouge and East Baton Rouge Parish, Louisiana (City of Baton Rouge retains separate city limits, and official census population only includes this area) * Camden County, North Carolina (county with no incorporated municipalities, apart from a small portion of Elizabeth City, re-organizing into a single unified government) * Indianapolis and Marion County, Indiana(four communities within Marion County retain separate governments: see Unigov) * Jacksonville and Duval County, Florida (four incorporated places within Duval County - the cities of Jacksonville Beach, Neptune Beach, and Atlantic Beach and the town of Baldwin - retain separate governments; all other rural land is incorporated by Jacksonville and so the entire county is incorporated) * Kansas City and Wyandotte County, Kansas (this "Unified Government" contains Kansas City, Edwardsville, most of Bonner Springs, and roughly half of Lake Quivira; a county relationship is maintained with the rest of the communities within the county) * Miami and Miami-Dade County, Florida operate under a federated two-tier government similar to consolidated city-county relationship where the county government operates as a superseding entity of county affairs and lower-tier incorporated municipalities operate civil and community services * Lafayette Parish, Louisiana and Lafayette (The status of the current state of consolidation is under review by an independent board. Deconsolidation, reorganization and total incorporation are all being considered as other towns in the parish as well as citizens in the unincorporated areas feel they are being under-represented under the current state of consolidation.) * Louisville and Jefferson County, Kentucky (all cities in pre-merger Jefferson County, other than Louisville, retain separate identities and some governmental functions, but all participate fully in the county-wide governing body, Louisville Metro Council) * Nashville and Davidson County, Tennessee (seven communities within Davidson County retain separate governments, although all participate in the metropolitan government in a two-tier system) A report was released in April 2008 recommending the merger of the governments of the City of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and that of Allegheny County. This plan has been endorsed by the mayor of Pittsburgh and the Chief Executive of Allegheny County, but needs approval by the City and County councils and from the state legislature before a referendum can be put forth for the voters to approve such a merger. Formerly consolidated * The City of Boston and Suffolk County, Massachusetts operated with a consolidated government for most of the twentieth century with Boston providing office space, auditors, budget, personnel and financial oversight for Suffolk County. This was not a true consolidation because three municipalities – Chelsea, Revere and Winthrop – were never annexed into Boston and remained separate jurisdictions within Suffolk County; however, the county was in control of the City of Boston by law. The special relationship between Boston and Suffolk County ended in 1999 as part of the gradual abolition of county governments statewide with all county employees and powers transferred to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts control. The only remaining powers and duties for the City of Boston in regards to the county is regarding the Suffolk County Register of Deeds where the city council issues the ceremonial oath of office as well as calls for a meeting to hold a special election to fill the office should there be a failure to elect someone to the office or a vacancy occurs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consolidated_city-county So its funny to me that many of the cities that everyone gets all hot and bothered about and says that Cleveland should strive to be like have some form of merged or consolidated government: Denver San Francisco Miami New York City Boston (until their state eliminated counties altogether) Not to mention all of the other cities that have done this and the ones, like Pittsburgh, that are considering it. If we don't do at least some version of this, we're idiots.

Exactly! No it won't fix everything, but anyone who thinks that our current system and our current set up with 59 municipalities is a-ok is out of their freaking minds, imho. Louisville did this. Nashville did this. Miami-Dade County has a partial merger. Indianapolis has this. As I stated before, New York City is a merger of 5 COUNTIES, not cities. Pittsburgh is considering a merger with Allegheny County. The benefits are obvious to those people but here its like pulling teeth to even consider merging a couple of cities. Just a couple. This is why we struggle. We have backwards, regressive thinking and we refuse to change and adapt to new realities. This is common sense. You can either do it now or do it later when everybody's broke and there's no choice. 59 municipalities in a county with stagnant to no growth in population is unsustainable. Its obvious. Like your signature says, without change there's no progress. People always say "we'll never be NYC". Well we won't, because we don't think like they do. NYC was created by merging 5 counties. We can't even merge 5 cities in this backwards county. And for the record, yes the Bible says that the poor will always be among you. That is NOT, however, an excuse to do nothing. Jesus said that what you do for the least of these you do for me. So no we can never eliminate poverty, but that does not mean you do nothing. And this whole merger thing isn't even just about poverty, its common sense to everyone except this county, apparently.

A strong city is indeed necessary for the region, but "size" and "strength" are not synonymous. Just like there are many large people out there who aren't particularly strong, there are many large cities out there that are not in great health. Also remember that the strongest form of urban development often actually requires comparatively little land. Popular neighborhoods in Columbus like the Short North are actually quite small, geographically. That can be a feature as much as a bug. Adding a significant amount of additional land does not inherently mean changing established land use patterns. That is true whether we're talking about a complete Cuyahoga County merger or just annexing a few selected inner-ring suburbs. Yes, but consolidating all of Cuyahoga County would not necessarily change that, particularly if it resulted in Cleveland's sclerotic bureaucracy being imposed upon healthier suburbs. People--or at least the sophisticated ones making decisions about where to locate businesses--can tell the difference between growth by merger and growth by development. It's not so different than private sector corporate mergers (indeed, the public-private distinction between corporations used to be nonexistent). Does merging one shrinking corporation with another shrinking corporation really help them survive? I don't know. Ask Bank of America, Merrill Lynch, and Countrywide. Sometimes, all you get is a larger shrinking corporation. It also means fewer people that need to be served with any particular amount of tax revenue. Consolidation not only means more people to serve, but more land area to serve. These maladies you list are not necessarily all connected to funding, and most urban governments long ago exceeded providing just "the essential functions of government," unless you have an extremely expansive vision of what those functions are. With no financial outlay at all, Cleveland could reduce the burden upon developers by changing its zoning code to be simpler and fairer, by reducing the amount of government oversight and approvals necessary for new projects to go forward. As for the schools: You could fund Cleveland City Schools to the tune of $100,000 per pupil and you would likely not match the educational attainment of Solon or Westlake or Shaker Heights, even if you halved the school funding in each of the latter districts. There is only so much that revenue alone can do. As for being a suburb of nowhere: Actually, it's quite possible to be a suburb of nowhere. Charlottesville, Virginia, where I went to school, pretty much is exactly that. Would Solon really stop being a suburb if it were merged into a consolidated Cuyahoga County? If it quacks like a duck ... Many people accept as an article of faith that consolidation saves money because it allows for the elimination of redundant services. That's not inherently true, however. Also, as I noted earlier, increasing the tax base is at best treading water when you're also increasing the demands upon the treasury. That might have potential, but you'd have to draw the lines of power very clearly (which is not an easy task). Otherwise, there'd be at least a period--possibly an extended period--of litigation between fractious borough presidents and the Cuyahoga mayor regarding where one's authority stopped and the other's began. Depends on which suburbs you mean. East Cleveland might be closer to bankruptcy than Cleveland proper is. Westlake, Solon, Shaker Heights, etc. are not. Thanks for the thoughtful response. 1. No size and strength are not necessarily related but it does help. The size of your city matters as far as perception, as far as a whole host of things. 1 million people is 1 million people. No one notices that the city of Columbus is essentially one big suburb. It's not an "urban city" in the sense of what most of us understand to be an urban city. But over 700,000 is over 700,000. There's no asterisk to that. No one mentions that years ago Columbus annexed other municipalities in exchange for water and sewer service. All people notice is the size of the population. So I say again, it DOES matter. 2. Since you mention mergers, why do most business mergers happen in the first place? Because, in most cases, the merged entities can be stronger together than they are divided. That is almost certainly the case here. You can't tell me that its healthy and financially sound to have all of these different municipalities with all of these different police departments, fire departments, different tax structures, competition among each other for businesses and people, etc. and that there wouldn't be money saved by a merger. Of course there would. Consolidation is a good thing when it can save the tax payer money. Look at what has happened in other areas that merge the city with the county. Almost every single time, it results in less of a cost for government on the tax payer. This isn't revolutionary thinking here. Modern New York City was created by a merger of FIVE whole counties into one city and we can't get 59 cities merged into one. This isn't a new concept. 3. A lower tax base sparks the causes and effects that I mentioned earlier and yes, it means that you have less people to serve, but it also means that you have less money to serve the people you do have and, in most cases, you're left with a population that needs more of the services that you can no longer afford. (This goes to the heart of my earlier argument as to why I don't believe East Cleveland will ever be able to survive on its own as an independent city and why it MUST merge with Cleveland.) It is a continuous cycle. 4. As a fiscal conservative, I can respect the argument that many urban governments have exceeded the essential functions of government. But as an urbanist, I argue that the population of a mid-to-big city expects mid-to-big city amenities. If you cannot provide that, you lose. Is it necessary for the city of Cleveland to own a golf course? Probably not. But it is necessary for the city to have enough money to pick up the garbage. It is necessary for the city to have enough money to have a lot more police officers than it has. It is, in my opinion, smart for the city to do things like building trash to energy plants and providing garbage cans to residents made for recycling (both of which would save the city money in the long run anyway and thus not offending my sensibilities as a fiscal conservative). It takes tax money to do all of those things. Unless someone has a very, VERY limited view of the role of city government, I don't see much that the city is doing that I think they shouldn't. be doing. There's some fat that could be trimmed, no doubt, as is the case in almost all of government. There's probably a few city employees that get paid more than they should and we probably need to analyze every year our city staffing needs to make sure we don't have more people than we need, but other than that I can't think of anything else that the city does that I think oversteps their boundaries (besides that transfat ban they tried to pass that I'm against). I'm from the Abraham Lincoln school of the belief in a limited but active government. I think we have that here. Its a bit more bureaucratic than it should be, but I don't have many complaints about the size of city government (now some the people IN city government as far as elected officials, well that's a different story). 5. Solon would still have the characteristics of a suburb. So what? So does West Park. People forget that this was how modern Cleveland, in terms of size, was created in the first place. Collinwood was an independent municipality. Nottingham was a village. Euclid Green was part of the city of Euclid. West Park was the last suburb we annexed in 1922. Ohio City was an independent city and a former rival of the city of Cleveland. This is not new. Most of our neighborhoods at one point in time or another were independent municipalities themselves. So merging Solon for example would be no different than when we merged West Park in 1922. 6. If a Borough type merger were to take place, then everyone should get together and design this in a way that says the big mayor only does the essential mayoral duties and the borough presidents do everything else. The only way it could work would be with the input of everyone. That can happen. I'm not concerned about their ability to get that done. If we get far enough in THIS COUNTY to even consider a merger on this scale, we'll get it through the finish line. Just talking about it in this territorial, stuck-in-the-past county would be a miracle. 7. Ask East Cleveland, Euclid, Garfield Heights, Brooklyn, etc. if this system is unsustainable. You cannot expect to have disposable cities and have that sustained. Its common sense. East Cleveland wasn't always the East Cleveland we know today. Euclid's biggest problems in regards to crime used to be speeding drivers. Our cities are disposable. Once we have accepted this culture of building one city, then as it gets older we build a new city instead of rebuilding an old one, eventually everyone will get it. It will spread. You see it now. I grew up around Euclid. It was never as bad as its getting now. On its present road, its about 10-12 years away from becoming 80s era East Cleveland. If the core isn't strong, no one is. And Solon and Westlake may be hot now, but it doesn't last forever. Eventually there'll be some new girl on the block that steals the attention from them too. Then slowly but surely, another city will bite the dust. Don't think that it can't happen. It can and eventually, if we keep on this same unsustainable path, it will happen.

I agree. I think the most practical thing to pursue would be a merger of some of the smaller cities that are close to the city already. Inner ring suburbs for the most part are already close culturally to the city anyway and I think they'd probably be the ones most receptive to a merger. As I've stated before, I'd prefer if there was a City-County merger, but since I don't believe that will ever, ever happen, at east getting some of these 59 municipalities off of the books would be good enough for me.

I see this hasn't been updated in a while, but has anybody heard anything about this project? Is it still supposed to happen or is it dead?

The location and the stigma is what makes me cautious about it. I am a little concerned. I just hope it doesn't become a trouble magnet. But as I said earlier and like you said, I'm not going to trash it just yet either. And by the way, the Walgreens thing is a great idea. It could be one of their bigger stores, something that aesthetically should fit a downtown and I think it could go good with downtown as far as increasing the whole "neighborhood" vibe. I could go for that. Great idea.