inlovewithCLE

I never said "vacant building have no value". Never said it. I do believe that vacant buildings (other than ones of historical significance--don't ignore that I said that too) have no value if they remain vacant. That's common sense. If there is a plan for a building that is more of a better use, then go with it. But, imo, leaving a vacant building vacant and praying that the right plan will come along eventually is stupid. For example, in Ohio City they fought to keep a check cashing place and a liquor store off of West 25th. I supported their efforts. Why? Because the location was where the Market Garden wanted to be (and is located now). That's what I'm talking about. If there's a better alternative, go with the alternative. If not, leaving a vacant building vacant with no concrete plan to do anything with it ever is dumb.

The casino needed a LARGE scale parking garage that is befitting of a casino. What was there wouldn't do. Ok you say there was a plan for the Columbia building, where was it? Was there any money behind it? Were the developers ready to go had it not been torn down? Leaving vacant buildings vacant and hoping that the right plan might eventually come around some day is insanity to me. We still have a good amount of historical buildings in Cleveland. It's not like they tore down City Hall. Its a building that's been vacant for years and most likely would still be vacant had it been "saved". The Stanley Block building has an extensive Union history, which gives a stronger argument for saving that building.

You 'fight to preserve vacant lots' around here all the time. Kind of your MO, my man. You may try to spin around it, but that would undeniably be the result of your long advocated zoning restrictions to nothing but 100 story mixed use residential buildings with Fortune 500 companies occupying the top floors. That's just made up nonsense. I've said we should open up the zoning where it's restricted to single-family, to clear the way for new apartments where houses are less marketable. Should power plants be zoned out of dense residential? Yes. Same with hog farms and some other things. But that position is a far cry from the dummy you're beating up on. Back to the power plant... there are plenty of industrial areas nearby, some requiring less demo than this one. And it's a false choice to assume the current building has to stay there otherwise. I don't expect a high rise to get built right against those RR tracks, but something of more value to pedestrians should go there. It may not be on the table right now, but putting in a brand new boiler-silo complex extends the wait by decades. Part of the idea with the Euclid Corridor was to have UC development cross over into East Cleveland. The RR tracks are barrier enough, and a power plant just extends the pedestrian dead zone. That is not likely to help encourage spillover. In most cases, activity is better than no activity. I'm fundamentally against the mentality of "say no to this now and wait for a better idea that isn't on the table now and may or may not ever materialize". No thank you. There still needs to be places for people to "work" in order to sustain the restaurants and the stores and everything else getting built here. This land is surrounded by the Free Clinic, Lake View Cemetery, and a gas station. I seriously doubt that there will ever be anything proposed on this particular area that will be "something of more value to pedestrians". Come on, let's be real.

Exactly, the Welcome center is for the casino. And you're right, that's the idea. I look at it like this: its in everybody's best interest that this casino succeeds. It cannot succeed if it is not competitive and not having a large scale parking operation will hurt its ability to be competitive. Without this Welcome Center, the casino has a hard time of being successful when there's so much competition around it. This casino needs to at least match the amenities of other casinos in order for it to have a shot at being successful. It's a no-brainer. This is what they need to compete, so give it to them. Plus, as a general rule, unless its a building of historical significance, I'm not a big fan of holding up progress for a vacant building that no one else wants. If there was an alternative plan for the Columbia Building, then the argument to save it might have more merit. But I didn't hear any plan to redevelop the building. Everyone talked about "saving" this building, but never talked about what they wanted to do with it after it was "saved". Activity is better than no activity. And in most cases, a building with something in it is better than a vacant building.

To my knowledge, there are still tenants on some of those other floors. I believe Key Bank is renting some space on those floors.

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment? I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future. But if you could double your money by having essentially two casinos, why wouldn't you? Giving up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars ON TOP of the hundreds of millions of dollars you'd make in the Higbee building is stupid. That's bad business. And people can say what they want about Dan Gilbert, but you don't become a billionaire by being bad at business unless you were born a billionaire. I get the skepticism, but if you think it through, it doesn't make business sense to not build phase 2 especially after 1) you paid $85 million dollars for the land (I know few businessmen that would willingly and deliberately waste that kind of money. Businessmen just don't think that way) and 2) you fought with the state to get the exception in order to keep both casinos open anyway. That makes no sense. You just got what is tantamount to a legal loophole where you're gonna get to have (basically) two casinos when you were only allowed one, and you don't think they'd take advantage of that? Of course they would. Any good businessman would. You were just given a legal loophole on a silver platter. They will use it. Whether they build a new casino or relocate Thistledown and make a racino, I don't know. But they will build something gaming related on that land. Didn't the constitutional amendment specifically state that the riverfront behind Tower City would be the location of the casino, then Gilbert fought for the Higbees temporary location as rider to the deal? In this case the $85 million saves him $400 million if he doesn't have to build a new structure in a market where casino business is way down and now a dime-a-dozen throughout middle America. It also placates the long-term power brokers of Cleveland (aka Forest City). THAT, is $85 million well spent and Gilbert remains the smart business man. To my understanding, that's not how it happened. Dan Gilbert did not request the Higbee building for the phase 1 casino. The city of Cleveland did. The complexities of the land behind Tower City caused a delay in the target opening date and the city requested that they open what was then a "temporary" casino in the Higbee building because that could open sooner, Cleveland could be the first city in Ohio to open a casino, there would be guaranteed foot traffic near the Tower City complex, and the city could get the tax money right away. Gilbert did not demand a rider for the Higbee building. He did demand that he would be able to keep both the Higbee casino and the Phase 2 casino open even though they would technically be two casinos. (Sidebar: why would he do that if he wasn't planning on building them both and keeping them both open?) The deal was, as long as they connect the Higbee building to the Phase 2 casino (likely with another skywalk) that the state would consider the complex to be one casino for regulation purposes. So I still stand by what I said. He wouldn't have paid $85 million for that land if phase 2 or some derivative wasn't going to be built on that land. Two casinos is still better than one. He will still make more money if phases 1 and 2 were open rather than just 1.

Would you rather have a vacant building at UC's front door instead? I mean, this is NOT that big of a deal. It's not like there's going to be residential developers breaking down the doors for this land, unless there's a market for people who want to live next door to the Free Clinic and across the street from Lake View Cemetery, featuring beautiful views of the Marathon gas station.

Why wouldn't he flush the $85 mi awayl if he is guaranteed on making HUNDREDS of millions in a short term from a property that requires far less of a substantial investment? I just get the feeling that the Higbee building will be THE casino for the foreseeable future. But if you could double your money by having essentially two casinos, why wouldn't you? Giving up the opportunity to make hundreds of millions of dollars ON TOP of the hundreds of millions of dollars you'd make in the Higbee building is stupid. That's bad business. And people can say what they want about Dan Gilbert, but you don't become a billionaire by being bad at business unless you were born a billionaire. I get the skepticism, but if you think it through, it doesn't make business sense to not build phase 2 especially after 1) you paid $85 million dollars for the land (I know few businessmen that would willingly and deliberately waste that kind of money. Businessmen just don't think that way) and 2) you fought with the state to get the exception in order to keep both casinos open anyway. That makes no sense. You just got what is tantamount to a legal loophole where you're gonna get to have (basically) two casinos when you were only allowed one, and you don't think they'd take advantage of that? Of course they would. Any good businessman would. You were just given a legal loophole on a silver platter. They will use it. Whether they build a new casino or relocate Thistledown and make a racino, I don't know. But they will build something gaming related on that land.

Its not "in the middle", its on the outskirts, barely close enough to be considered UC at all, on the CLE/EC border. The building right now is hideous and I think leaving that hideous building on Euclid is more of a detriment than building a power plant and administrative offices would be.

A couple of points. One, I must be the only person on this forum that's ok with this. lol. If this casino is going to get even close to their target projections of people on a regular basis (and based on what I know about other casinos, I have no reason to think they won't), then they're going to need a very large parking operation. What's the point in having the casino to begin with if its not going to be able to have the things necessary to be competitive. If it doesn't have that parking operation, the whole thing may not work. So in my mind, this is non-negotiable. They need this in order to be competitive so they should do it. Period. As far as the skywalk, I'm ok with it as long as it doesn't jeopardize the historical tax credits. If it does, they shouldn't do it. But they need what they need to be competitive. Also, by deliberately having nothing but a bar and a buffet in the casino, putting only one restaurant in the welcome center and by creating a total rewards program that gives their customers discounts for eating at area restaurants (both of which they're doing) will cause increased foot traffic anyway, regardless of where they park at. As far as phase 2 getting built, my thoughts on that is this: a) I doubt Rock Gaming would make more money if that land was a parking lot as opposed to what would be essentially another casino. If they hit their projections in the Higbee building, why wouldn't they build another casino? That's just more money for them. It makes good business sense to build phase 2 and get what is, for all intents and purposes, two casinos for the price of one. That's a good deal. Second, if the Rock had not reached an agreement with Gov. Kasich about keeping both phases open, then I'd agree that it probably wouldn't be built. But because the state is going to regulate phase 1 and 2 as one single casino, I believe there's at least a 50/50 chance that phase 2 should be built. And don't forget, Ceasar's also own Thistledown. I would not be surprised if we see a relocation and a conversion of Thistledown into a racino. Just my thoughts.

I agree with you in the sense of being iffy of historical districting in the area, but I would NOT want to trade some of those old houses for it. Many of those houses are big, beautiful, stately houses that add to the diversity of housing stock. I don't see why there has to be a choice of one or the other. It should be both. Our city has a problem of not having enough diversified housing stock. Those houses in UC are some of the only houses (other than on nearby East Blvd) in that style that you can have on the east side of Cleveland. I don't want to see them go the way of Millionaires Row. But I do agree with your larger point of being excited to see more high density residential. Let's do both.

That's a good point. There's nothing that says that it can't look good. And it should. And it should be demanded that they pay attention to the design.

Really? Hmm. That could be a good addition to the area.

So it's roughly defined as 105th and Superior and what? Forgotten Triangle refers mostly to the Kinsman neighborhood, well south of UC. Superior/105th is Glenville. I don't see UC having much spillover because the surrounding housing is mostly houses. The few remaining non-project apartments are old and haven't been kept up. There can't be any spillover until it has somewhere to go. Asking people to take out mortgages on decrepit houses with no retail nearby is a tall order. The number of hospitals and museums there is irrelevant. But building a power plant on Euclid Avenue? That's about the worst possible move I can imagine. I'm starting to think I could light a pile of tires on fire somewhere along Euclid and it would be viewed as a positive outgrowth of the Health Line. Sorry for the SimCity comparison, but if you try to put a power plant in a developing residential neighborhood, the game flat out won't let you. It's the only thing you just plain can't do, because it's so far outside the bounds of credulity. I get that the Hessler lobby doesn't want a coal burner nearby, which is understandable, but this particular alternative is ridiculous. Come to University Circle, see the... silos of ash and lime! Is there not anywhere else in the city we can put this, other than the cultural center? Of course there needs to be spillover. If there's something there currently, get rid of it. Yes there's decrepit buildings, but that's what a bulldozer is for. No there isn't much retail, but until Uptown is finished, there isn't much retail in University Circle either. I love University Circle. I'm a fan of everything they're doing. But I am not a fan of UC being an island. The best neighborhood is one that causes spillover and gentrification to the areas around it. I remember seeing a speech that Chris Ronayne (President of University Circle, Inc for those that don't know) gave and he said that they are literally running out of space. So if that's the case, then spillover is not an option. Eventually it will HAVE to bleed into Glenville, parts of Hough, and the Cleveland/East Cleveland border. You can't continue to grow if there's nowhere to grow. As far as the "power plant" is concerned, I don't see the problem. That building has been vacant for years. And it's not just going to be a "power plant". It's going to house administrative offices as well. And the project will retain 30 jobs and create 30 more jobs. Oh and its a $270 million dollar project. I don't see the problem. I believe that it was said that this particular organization is the power provider for UH and I remember a rep from UH in an interview say that they were telling their vendors "move to the city of Cleveland or we'll find someone that will". So this company did it. They need to go somewhere. And if they're UH's provider then it makes sense for them to want to be close to UH. Where else is there for them to go? (As I said, UC is running out of room) And it removes a hideous vacant building. It's a "power plant". So what? Every single parcel of UC won't be able to be just apartments or condos or retail. And this is on the outskirts of UC anyway, next door to the Free Clinic, so it's not impeding or interfering with any of the other great projects. This just adds to the diversity of the UC economy. And to me, that's a good thing 8-)

So because R3Domain will not open and the owners moved, they don't get to keep the money, do they?

I work in entertainment so I disagree, all it takes is one label, TV or media conglomerate. However, with the shrinking of the CD/Recorded music and Publishing businesses and the plateau of TV/Movie home entertainment I dont see it happening. We have the RnR HOF in which we are not properly leveraging that brand. And industry can easily move. I think his DVD will be met with luke warm reception. HipHop/Rap is not the HipHop/Rap it was a decade ago when it was intertwined into RnB and we dominate on Music Video programming. I completely agree. I also work in the entertainment industry locally. I understand the thinking of "there'll always be *insert city here* that will dominate the industry" because it used to be the truth. But the age of the internet has really cause a decentralization of the entertainment industry, much to the chagrin of some of the old guard in the business. I think New York will always be New York, Los Angeles will always be Los Angeles. But just like there's an NY and LA there's an Atlanta or a Nashville (both of which have pretty significant entertainment industry hubs). We don't have to be New York or Los Angeles, but there's certainly a place for us in the industry, no doubt about that. I think the key to making it work is having a niche. Cities outside of NY or LA that have entertainment hubs did so because they had a niche. Atlanta's music industry exploded within the last 10-12 years (although historically, they always had some sort of a music presence, just like CLE used to) because of the growth of Southern Rap. Artists started their own record labels, got recording or distribution deals with the major labels in NY or LA, and when they became successful, they kept their record labels in Atlanta. Nashville of course is the capital of Country and Christian music. So we need a niche, something that we're really good at. But finding a niche is not that difficult, considering that there's so much musical roots here. We just need to tap back into it. Everybody knows about our Rock N Roll background, but few know about our Gospel history or our Jazz history or our Pop history or even our Rap history. At one point, music was so strong in this town that the New York record labels had satellite offices in Cleveland. We were the test market. We were the place where the NY labels sent their artists to before they got to NY, because our cities were (and I'd argue still are) similar in terms of demographics. If you couldn't make it in Cleveland, you didn't stand a chance in New York City. People forget that. Having a thriving entertainment industry in Cleveland is not some pipe dream, its simply bringing back what we once had. And being someone in this field, I think we can do it.

Wow! That's fantastic news. Glad to see University Circle continuing to grow and migrate up Euclid.

valid and seconded! ;) I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail. I totally believe that putting the casino in the Higbee Building will revive Tower City, no question about it. It's the only casino on the public square of a major American city and the ony casino that I know of that is attached to a shopping mall. If their visitor projections are even half right, that'll bring in a steady stream of activity to that complex. Retailers love guaranteed traffic and, if the casino projections are accurate, that's definitely guaranteed traffic. I think that's probably the part of the story that most people don't mention. If the Higbee Casino works, then it will most certainly revive Tower City. You've never been to Vegas, have you? :laugh: Outside of Vegas of course, lol. And maybe Atlantic City, not sure about that one. (And yes, I've been to both. lol)

I don't know the exact address but its on the same side of the street as the Cleveland Free Clinic. There's the Free Clinic, a dingy old strip mall, and then this gigantic warehouse looking building that I'm talking about, right before you get into East Cleveland. Here's the address to the Free Clinic for using Google Maps. Hope this helps. 12201 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio 44106 Decided on my walk back from work to walk over there and check it out. As you may have already guessed due to the thread I am posting in, it is to be demolished. Either Case Western or one of the Hospitals owns it. The demo workers told me it was Hospital owned, but I find it very hard to believe. Here are some pictures I took about 15 min ago: Hmm, ok. I figured something was about to happen to it. Did anyone tell you what was going to replace it or is this coming down just because?

I agree, as stated in the retail thread, Tower City/Forest City needs a mall management company, like Simon or General Growth who can bring in a strong group of retailers. Bringing in Simon would be a great idea. I wonder why this hasn't been done. I mean, this way, Forest City can make money without having to do the work. lol. It's a no brainer, I would think.

No, they're not currently on the market due to the ongoing legal situation as has been discussed here. And I don't think anyone has been updating the website, because there are sold townhomes still listed there. I read in Crain's Cleveland Business that the legal situation has been resolved and that they are going to convert the Avenue District into rental property. Maybe that's why the website hasn't been updated. "In an effort to bring the foreclosure case to a close, an unidentified investor has joined with a group formed by Mr. Zaremba, his brothers, Walter and Tim, and contractor Panzica Cos. to acquire the troubled Avenue District property at 1211 St. Clair Ave. Huntington Bank also has agreed to help finance the purchase of the tower, which would become a rental property instead of condos. Those revelations came as lawyers for the banks and the developer agreed to private mediation in a hearing last Wednesday, July 20, in Judge John P. O'Donnell's courtroom in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court." http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110725/FREE/307259967 The townhomes have nothing to do with that legal battle. We got drug in in error at first, but that was resolved within a couple of months. And yes, the apartment conversion talk has been going on for a while now. It's just that the legal system takes for.ev.er. I'm not sure why their website has not been updated with respect to the townhome sales. Oh ok. Didn't know the townhomes weren't included in that. Btw, how have the sales been as far as those townhomes are concerned? *Looks up to post from this morning* Smarty-pants. lol. Sorry. Didn't see that :oops:

No, they're not currently on the market due to the ongoing legal situation as has been discussed here. And I don't think anyone has been updating the website, because there are sold townhomes still listed there. I read in Crain's Cleveland Business that the legal situation has been resolved and that they are going to convert the Avenue District into rental property. Maybe that's why the website hasn't been updated. "In an effort to bring the foreclosure case to a close, an unidentified investor has joined with a group formed by Mr. Zaremba, his brothers, Walter and Tim, and contractor Panzica Cos. to acquire the troubled Avenue District property at 1211 St. Clair Ave. Huntington Bank also has agreed to help finance the purchase of the tower, which would become a rental property instead of condos. Those revelations came as lawyers for the banks and the developer agreed to private mediation in a hearing last Wednesday, July 20, in Judge John P. O'Donnell's courtroom in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court." http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110725/FREE/307259967 The townhomes have nothing to do with that legal battle. We got drug in in error at first, but that was resolved within a couple of months. And yes, the apartment conversion talk has been going on for a while now. It's just that the legal system takes for.ev.er. I'm not sure why their website has not been updated with respect to the townhome sales. Oh ok. Didn't know the townhomes weren't included in that. Btw, how have the sales been as far as those townhomes are concerned?

I don't know the exact address but its on the same side of the street as the Cleveland Free Clinic. There's the Free Clinic, a dingy old strip mall, and then this gigantic warehouse looking building that I'm talking about, right before you get into East Cleveland. Here's the address to the Free Clinic for using Google Maps. Hope this helps. 12201 Euclid Avenue, Cleveland, Ohio 44106

valid and seconded! ;) I really like to think of what this can do to freshen up tower cities offerings, and the possibility of retail in the downtown area. really that, to me, is the biggest pro out of this entire thing. though maybe the constant/late night activity base can vie for that, but I think mostly its the retail. I totally believe that putting the casino in the Higbee Building will revive Tower City, no question about it. It's the only casino on the public square of a major American city and the ony casino that I know of that is attached to a shopping mall. If their visitor projections are even half right, that'll bring in a steady stream of activity to that complex. Retailers love guaranteed traffic and, if the casino projections are accurate, that's definitely guaranteed traffic. I think that's probably the part of the story that most people don't mention. If the Higbee Casino works, then it will most certainly revive Tower City.

No, they're not currently on the market due to the ongoing legal situation as has been discussed here. And I don't think anyone has been updating the website, because there are sold townhomes still listed there. I read in Crain's Cleveland Business that the legal situation has been resolved and that they are going to convert the Avenue District into rental property. Maybe that's why the website hasn't been updated. "In an effort to bring the foreclosure case to a close, an unidentified investor has joined with a group formed by Mr. Zaremba, his brothers, Walter and Tim, and contractor Panzica Cos. to acquire the troubled Avenue District property at 1211 St. Clair Ave. Huntington Bank also has agreed to help finance the purchase of the tower, which would become a rental property instead of condos. Those revelations came as lawyers for the banks and the developer agreed to private mediation in a hearing last Wednesday, July 20, in Judge John P. O'Donnell's courtroom in Cuyahoga County Common Pleas Court." http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110725/FREE/307259967