somewhereOTR

I think you guys may be better statesmen than I am. :-) For me, I think the way he has conducted himself in his first few weeks speaks volumes. The intellectual dishonesty and outright lies in the span of several days have caused me to write him off. For me he has dug himself a VERY big hole. Ive lost total respect for the man.

I'm very pleased with the outcome, but still up for a recall. Cranley has proven himself an unfit leader IMHO.

^ Thanks! Figuring out the school thing is tough! :-) There are some great options but logistically only the SCPA and Fairview work without moving (we are in OTR) (which is an option) to the east side for Kilgore/Sands. Thanks for the heads up about Arlitt. That may be an option while trying to get into Fairview or move to the SCPA as well at K

Does anyone out there have experience getting their child into a CPS magnet school? Im particularly interested in Fairview German as a possibility for her elementary school years. However, my daughter wont be 3 until March and we are on the fence as to whether to put her in pre-school at 3 or 4. But from what I understand. Fairview is pretty tough to get into. Is it worth going ahead and attempting to enroll her at 3 to maybe have a better chance at getting her in? Is it easier to get a child in at pre-school? Will I have to set up camp for 3 days :-) Thanks!

^ urban sites condos I believe...

^ 3CDC was not the organization that was going to tear down the properties. Cincinnati Public Schools wanted to tear them down to build a new school. That plan changed (build a new school there) and now 3CDC wants to step in and develop them.

CPS was going to demo the block for a new Washington Park Elem. Now that they appear to be agreeing to sell, they will likely be rehabbed. This is good news

3CDC buying OTR block BY LISA BERNARD-KUHN | [email protected] OVER-THE-RHINE – A plan that could deliver new commercial space and rehabbed apartments to Mercer Commons – a site long targeted for redevelopment – is inching forward. Cincinnati Center City Development Corp. (3CDC), the city of Cincinnati and Cincinnati Public Schools are working out the details of a purchase agreement for the property – which is bound by 13th, 14th, Vine and Walnut streets, said Steve Leeper, 3CDC executive director. The site, which is now owned by CPS, was the 2003 target for a $25 million housing redevelopment planned by Western & Southern Financial Group. That plan was sidelined after the school district asked Western & Southern to sell it the property in 2005 as a potential site to replace Washington Park School. However, a declining population of school children in the neighborhood led CPS to cancel that plan. Leeper wouldn’t give a sale price, although officials at the non-profit development group said in the spring they had offered $4.2 million for the property. The new proposal calls for the city of Cincinnati to purchase the property, then sell the site to 3CDC. “The city has the ability to implement development strategies, which makes them much more flexible,” versus buying directly from the schools, Leeper said. ... Preliminary plans for the site would include market rate and affordable rental units, along with some commercial space, Leeper said. “Ideally, we would like to begin in the early part of the next calendar year,” he said. Meanwhile, 3CDC and other developers in Cincinnati recently learned that a tool for financing historic rehab projects has been placed back on the books in Ohio. Read more here: http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080610/BIZ01/306100062

On another note, forgot to mention this here. About a month ago, I saw an email regarding a liquor permit application for the old Cooper's on Main space. Looked into the applicants and they are the owners of Martino's on Short Vine. A real estate agent I ran into this summer during one of the home tours mentioned this was in the works and the email suggests that its true. Would be a nice addition. I hope its a more down to earth restaurant and not another upscale spot.

Last rumor I heard (as of last week) is that there will be 4-5 new venues opening on Main in the next few months. One of which I heard was Lucy Blue moving into the Harry's space - maybe thats the Pizza Bar.

Thanks for the input guys. I found a couple of lots over the weekend that I am interested in. Steve, I appreciate your offer for advice. I just may take you up on it. :-)

Not sure if this is the right section for this, but I have a question that I am hoping somewhat out there can help with. I am looking into building a new home on an urban lot in OTR. While I am considering looking into getting an architect to start from scratch, I am wondering if there might be existing house plans for urban development out there. (to help keep the cost down). I've done a little bit of searching online, but most of the stuff I have found thus far is surburban in nature. Anybody know of any place (or architects) that sell pre-existing plans for an urban setting? Thanks.

^ Cash flow. If its a hit, they burn fast - but bright. 500 people a night @ $5 cover (or more) that $5000 over two nights. Put in drinks at ~$10/person average thats another $10,000. $15,000/week at least. I wouldn't be surprised if CLAU brought in more than that. Its my understanding that a strong performing club should pay for itself in 12-18mths. After that its gravy until you reconcept. Its a risk, but if works, its hard to beat the ROI.

^ That would be an excellent fit for downtown, but unfortunately the rumor I have heard is that they are headed to Kenwood... :x That place is getting a number of good retail outlets, but the congestion the is nuts. People usually talk about finding parking downtown as hard, but Kenwood is getting to be aweful - especially during the holidays.

I think he may be referring to gap finanacing from the city. For example 3CDC had to get a subsidy from the city to do the Gateway buildings at 12th & Vine. Basically the economics were such that banks wouldn't underwrite loans for the project based on the expected market income streams (rentals/condos sales/ commercial spaces), so the city provided funds to bridge the gap. But this is typical in transitional neighborhoods and is why funds like Community Development Block Grants and Hope VI exist. And to be fair its not much different than federal funds available to fill gap required to build roads out to home in the suburbs. They wouldn't financially stand on their own either.

I would imagine its more than that in the 'Greater Downtown' area because I believe they include Mt. Adams, East End, West End (City West), OTR, CBD, etc. I think the hype stems from the fact there is a fair amount of movement into communities that had previously seen little influx in many years. Thats the way it starts. Not sure what you expected, but this isn't San Diego, New York, or Chicago. If your looking for that kind of sizziling development your going to be dissappointed. Revitalizing communites takes time. Chicago and Portland didn't happen overnight. Well duh. Vine St. is only like one of the worst streets in the whole city. But if you are going to turn it around, you have to start somewhere. 3CDC has said many times there are working with patient money, because they understand full well turning around a neighborhood that took 60 years to get to its current state is going to time. Your bitterness runs deep my man.... And its actually not slowing down. There are actually several good size projects in the pipeline on the development side. Absorption has always been a bit slower in OTR, but as more people move to the neighborhood, that will pick up over time. It cost a lot to rehab an old building. Thats why subsidies are necessary. Particularly if you want to try to get units at a resonable price point. That's ok. Everyone needs a shoulder to cry on sometimes. :-)

No offense but Im beginning to think you are a bit myopic with respect to what 18-34 year olds want. Just because a group is young doesn't mean the entire demographic is attracted to the same thing. You appear to project your wants/likes on the whole demographic. The world is more diverse than that. I know a whole host of 18-34's that would not want to live above a bar. I know a few that do. The market reality is a diverse one. If the signs/listings are any indication, there are a number of spaces on the block. Germania building Lucy Blue building Neon's Harry's Jeckyll and Hydes Jump Davis Furniture Looks like there is an interest in selling to me. Now the big question is at what price. Currently the asking prices unreasonable, but if there is no interest the market will soften up the landlords in time. Don't know what Stough and Bod Schnieder own, but it would be interesting to understand the thought process./ economics as to why they would choose to sit on a building. Particularly if they have paid in as much as much money as I would guess. I can see waiting if one thinks that interest will return and you're biding your time. But if the general feeling of all the bar owners is to 'get out of Dodge' as you say and there is little to no interest in their retail space. Why would a landlord pay taxes, maybe a mortgage, insurance on an empty building (not cheap), and then on top of that VBML fees/fines, on a property that is depreciating in value, soon to be overrun with vagrants and drug dealers? I would think that at some point they would actively investigate uses to offset that carrying cost for the property, or sell to liquidate the asset and reallocate that money to investments that generate a higher return. Seems odd that they would choose the former scenario just because...

My understanding is that it is going to be a second location. A bistro concept. Brought up the article to highlight the idea of a shift in market demand. Bars/nightclubs vs. restaurant focus with bars. Was highlighting the idea of product, not the location. I think they are close enough to merit consideration. I never said that businesses in OTR were paying much for rent, but market rate is just that. The rate at which the market will pay. Hence businesses are paying market rate. May not be what the landlords would like to receive, but it is what it is. And I don't disagree that it would be much better if demand was such that businesses had to pay more. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the article. Oh, and I don't disagree that crime and vagrants are an issue, but they have been an issue in OTR for the last 20-30 years. Talk to some on the longtime residents and they will speak of a time when it was even worse than it is now. You and others may disagree in where you think the mindset of the market is. That's fine. I just have a different point of view. And I also happen to think that NotL is the current entertainment district. May be sterile, but it has all the trappings - and it has restaurant/bars. Even Jefferson Hall jumped in with food didn't they?

OR....folks aren't into nightclub scenes like they were 5-10 years ago... I suppose one can look at recent events come up with their own hypotheses. But, Im not convinced that the size of the market of "young people" is that much smaller. Even if it is 10% smaller, its still a sizeable market. If anything, the argument could be made that the potential market size is bigger. People are changing their lifestyles. Getting married later, hanging out with friends later and an older group can be reached than was considered 10 years ago. If anything I would say the market is more competitive. People have many more options for spending their time and money. I would also add that there aren't many restaurant customers in OTR is because we don't have many restaurants.(and I mean restaurant first - bar second) Kaldi's and Cooper's don't count. Nicola's does pretty well. I don't think people eat out by just walking by a restaurant. Eating out is much more of a destination decision. If anything. a restaurant will drive foot traffic which helps with retail on the street. Thats a big reason why all these 'lifestyle' centers are adding restaurants. The only thing that seprates a lifestlye center from a strip mall are the anchor restaurants. That's actually my point. Washington Ave was not always where it is now. It had to change with the times. And dude - I thought you had shut down Alchemize and moved on to greener fields. Why on earth are you still lurking on a thread about Main Street trying convince everyone why it won't be successful? I respect that you have made a business decision to move on. That's cool. But Geez Louis, quit poisoning the water. Does it make you feel better about your decision or something? All I ever hear from you anymore with respect to OTR is negativity. Even in the Enquirer...

I think this article about Washington avenue in St. Louis speaks to what's happening on Main Street. Specifically, the comment about a changing marketplace leading to the closing of nightclubs. Main Streets needs to evolve with the times. Hopefully Vinyl will help jumpstart the next generation of Main Street... http://www.belleville.com/mld/belleville/news/local/14910690.htm Washington Avenue adds new places to eat, party Downtown's nightlife is revitalized BY CURT DAWSON For the News-Democrat ST. LOUIS - With the revitalization of Washington Avenue, nightclub and restaurant owners downtown continue to adapt in a changing market that has seen the disappearance of numerous nightclubs. "Downtown is more residential than it was 10 years ago, so there is a trend towards restaurants with a bar," said Pablo Weiss, owner of three venues in the Loft District. Weiss owns KitchenK, Mercury, and Nectar.

I don't think anyone is 'walking around the crime and blight issue'. In fact, I think pretty much every post has acknowledged that that is a legitimate issue/concern. I think the difference in opinion is that some think it is the only problem, while others think it is only one part of a larger issue for Main. In large part because the crime and blight has been an issue on Main for the last 15+ years. Back in 1995/96, you didn't see anyone north of Kaldi's...talk about blight. People even went to the Warehouse and The Loft on Vine which was far worse than Main is now. A member of band was shot and killed in the mid 90's after a set on Main and people still went. Im not saying that crime/panhandling isn't an issue, but it has always been an issue. At least I know it was in Main's glory days. I think what some of us are asking is what was it that allowed Main and OTR to overcome its stigma to become a successful destination spot then, but not now. Sure the riots had a alot to do with Main's downturn, but that was over 5 years ago. (a generation in club years) Some of us just happen to think that Main as a whole (and this isn't an indictment on any particullar club/bar) could use a more compelling product. An entertainment area functions in the aggregate, unless you have a killer anchor to carry the more run of the mill destinations. As a product overall, some of us think Main could improve. That's all. Some disagree and that's cool. Its no skin off my back whether any of the bars/clubs choose to consider an alternative point of view. Its their business to manage to success or failure. The market will separate the wheat from the chaff and Main will ultimately be stronger because of it. First, marketing is more than promotion. Its positioning, pricing, place (insert marketing 101 stuff here) and they all work together. Since Main suffers from a relative weak 'place' (e.g. safety concerns) it needs a pretty darn compelling positioning, pricing, promotion to overcome that shortcoming. That's not easily solved and I don't think anyone has suggested that it is. But sticking to an old formula that worked 10 years ago, may not work today. That's all we're saying. Finally, I was sarcastic at the beginning of my last post, but I was being serious at the end. I certainly do not fault a business for leaving and trying their fortunes elsewhere. In fact, I think they should. OTR is not for everyone. If one were opening a new restaurant and could choose from Northside, Oakley, OTR & Clifton; OTR would likely be dead last as a choice for all the reasons mentioned in this thread. But, sometimes people want to make a difference, so they choose a place like OTR. My guess is Nick made this choice in part because he wanted to make a difference and I think that is very admirable. However, I do think that if the stress gets to the point that one is unhappy (which my read is - and maybe I'm wrong - is that Nick is quite unhappy with running a business in OTR) then maybe it is time to move on to what will hopefully be greener pastures. That's all. I am not trying to belabor a point with my postings, but I live in OTR, I have invested in OTR. I like it here. I mean no animosity to anyone, but I also do not see a reason to leave unchallenged a position I disagree with. After all, it is a discussion board...

If this thread stresses you out so much a) Why on earth do you read it and b) Why do you keep coming back to post?!? You don't like OTR, you can't run a business down here, all the Main Street business owners are the Donald Trumps of the bar business with an excellent product with no room for improvement, the Cincy market in general doesn't appreciate an impeccable, perfect bar scene product that is Main Street. Those in the Cincy market that do get it go there grudgingly because there are car break-ins, panhandlers, prostitutes, crackheads, drug dealers, ugly buildings, Jordan's Market, shootings, muggings, and people peeing in the street. We get it. Move to your new pad in Clifton, relocate your business and triple your revenue. Enjoy life. Sounds like you need to let OTR, and maybe Cincinnati go. Lifes to short to cause yourself this much misery...

It was good time too. Recommend to anyone interested to check it out next month. Had chance to try a Lemon Basil sorbet...rather interesting - but good :-). There was a parade from Washington Park where the Opera Dog competition was. I was on Main at the time and it was pretty cool seeing a huge crowd of folks with their dogs coming up the street. At one point there must of been at least 100+ dogs milling about. My dog was in heaven - didn't know which dog to sniff first...lol. A plus for the neighborhood was that it looked like every news crew made it out, so hopefully there will be some positive press. Mallory passed through about that time so he may have been the reason, but either way its all good. :-)

I think the assertion was that people in Cincinnati don't appreciate nightlife. So it sounds like you are offering anecdotal evidence to suggest this is not true and agree with Cincy-Rise. Out of curiosity, do the people you know go to Main? Do you know why/why not?

Fair enough. But current customers are not the only ones to listen to if the goal is to increase business.