CincyGuy45202

^ So just to be clear--- you're saying it's totally ok for the City to lose millions and millions of dollars in tax revenue by losing Vantiv, Paycor, etc. because they want suburban style office space and NOT downtown high rises? And that we should in no way leverage underutilized space in outer neighborhoods for development? Or are you saying we should only build high rises, even on Paddock Road or Red Bank & Madison? Are you familiar with the Medpace office campus? They moved their 1000 employees (averaging $65,000 salaries) from outside the City to Madisonville and built a new campus. Yes, it's not a 15 story high rise in a completely mixed use neighborhood, but it's better to have that in Cincinnati than in Mason. You can't convince every business they MUST be in downtown high-rises. That's ridiculous. The developer took an old long abandoned factory (nutone) and built a brand new office campus. that site went from 0 tax money to hundreds of thousands of tax money generated each year. All we did was give them a property tax abatement on the new development. How is that a bad thing?

^ ya- I think if an entire year went by with no murders, it would still be considered a "dangerous" area by the media. They are taking the long view (backwards). For 40 years it was dangerous. 3 years of GREAT progress is wonderful, but in their eyes, it's still dangerous. That is a very expected thought for their audience (primarily suburbanites).

I think a huge part of it is demand, not costs. It's incredibly cheap to do anything in Cincinnati, and the City has a massive property tax abatement program. The new U Square people got something like $13 million in property tax abatements over 10 years for building a LEED certified building. The more important factor is demand and worker skills. Apple just decided to announce a massive 4000 job center in Austin. Austin is seen as being filled with young, smart, creative people. OR if the talent isn't already in Austin, the talent will say, oh I'll totally move to Austin. Cincinnati is a more difficult sell for these kind of companies (the ones that will lead us in the next 20-30 years). Young creative class people from SF or NYC are less likely to up and move to Cincinnati than they are to Austin (obviously a total generalization based solely on my own conversations). Culture is key to drawing needed talent to cities. Many many many companies every day chose to be in a place with way more taxes, way more costs, way more difficulties than downtown Cincinnati. But that's because there is status, culture, and attractiveness to progressive cities that lure creative class educated young professionals. And beyond just that one group, many businesses specifically look for diverse workforces. Increasing our hispanic and asian populations in the Metro and in the City will be key to attracting jobs. Within the metro, however, you are right. Things can be done to attract people downtown vs. west chester, but part of it depends on the work force. Vantiv left Cincinnati because they wanted an all surface lot suburban style campus because a majority of their workers are middle class women. We are likely to see the same thing with Paycor. HOPEFULLY the City can lure them to Keystone or something, but workforces have their own specific interests even within a Metro. Today, downtowns are more likely to be high paying jobs (Vantiv & Paycor pay 30-50,000 to most of their staff, while P&G & Dunnhumby pay between 60-100,000). What the City needs to do, is retool underutilized land in outer neighborhoods to create suburban style campuses. that is what GO Cincinnati recommended and what is happening at Red Bank & Madison and Keystone Park. Hopefully these work out. This can ensure that the suburban style jobs still can stay in the City and Downtown can continue to grow and attract higher paying jobs. Also- Downtown business (even the bigger companies) will be helped dramatically by more residents.

Interesting to note Cincinnati's massive increase in gains from 2009-2010 (3,100) to 2010-2011 (20,300). Hopefully the latter number is what continues next year. Also, shocking how even with losses, Cincinnati has now passed Cleveland as the largest Job Metro. If things stay "steady": Columbus will reach pre-recession Metro jobs by the end of 2012, Cincinnati by the end of 2013 Dayton by ~2015 Everyone else, who knows. Of course, the likelihood of anything staying consistent year to year is very small- And with unemployment in the state dropping, jobless claims dropping, and things generally seeming to get better, I'd hope all OH metro's show job gains in 2012.

Wow-- I love the fierce competition (obviously not a real competition) between uptown and downtown for the most jobs!!! It's great for the City that both job centers are seeing so much investment. I recently heard someone from Uptown Consortium say that as of the last official count, there were MORE (just barely) jobs in Uptown than downtown. It's something like 60,000 jobs in Uptown and 57,000 jobs downtown. The Cincinnati MSA has 1.1 million jobs in 15 counties over thousands and thousands of square miles of land. Downtown and uptown are no more than 6 square miles (and that's probably exaggerating). I bet the math would show that 10% of the MSA's jobs are in about .5% of its total area. Getting these two job centers connected by the streetcar will be key. Now I do wish there was a way that Christ Hospital & Children's Hospital's major new investment projects could leverage some residential development in their respective neighborhoods... That would be ideal.

Back on topic.... I looked on 3CDC's website. July 1 is now the official opening for the Park while April 1 is listed for the garage. I'm a bit surprised about the garage! Very exciting.

Matthew Hall's thinly veiled 'questions' are getting a bit annoying. Let's drop the sarcasm. It never translates well on a board. The point is-- While the difference in land value can be tens of millions of dollars, the cost of cement is only going to vary 5-15%. The cost of labor will vary 15-25% and the transportation costs will vary 10-20%. A $3 million piece of land in downtown Cincinnati could be a $50 million piece of land in downtown San Fran. So yes- the cost of labor in San Francisco is "about" the same as it is in Cincinnati as compared to the dramatic difference in the value of the land the labor is working on.

^ Technically it does, but there are no streets that touch between the two. A creek, some railroad tracks and some wooded land is along the border. I think the point was you couldn't just cross a street like liberty and go from Wyoming to Lincoln Heights.

The majority of where this is being built was a flat lot for about a decade. I think they took down two small historic buildings that were in decent shape. surely they could have worked around that. The rest being demolished is a 70's style medical office building.

Phase 1: http://www.uc.edu/cdc/corryville/renderings/Uptown%20_Place_121510.pdf Phase 2: http://www.uc.edu/cdc/corryville/renderings/university_edge_phase2_rev.pdf

Soo..... Back to the streetcar! I noticed the water main replacement has nearly reached 15th!

So I recently heard that between $50-60 million is the cost for the garage and retail- and that is separate from the cost of the office space (roughly $36 million). so total is an $85-95 million building. no idea if that includes the apartment cost. Guessing not.

Rumor mill is late June for park opening. Late May/Early June for garage opening.

Thanks for creating this-- I should note, the location of this project seems to be very confusing. Technically it's Corryville, on the Clifton Border (Ruther Ave splits corryville & Clifton) I will add some photos I took recently to this thread soon.

Any word on Doug Spitz's plans? He has a whole bunch of land and everything is just sitting there.

^ Perfect.

^ ya- I totally misread that statement. At the same time, the non-permanent one that they have right now is equally difficult if you're trying to hail a cab. Very strange.

Unfortunately? I think using taxi's are great- definitely better than having people all drive down here individually. I see NO reason for 2nd street to be 5-6 lanes across. It's way too big. Turn one lane into taxi or hell, even parking meters. It would slow things down immensely.

WHAT!? OTR is not perfect, but South of Liberty it is just as strong, if not stronger than most neighborhoods. Several hundred million dollars has been invested in OTR in 5 years. You can walk around at any time of night. Crime is highly confined to a specific group of people and it rarely has a direct effect on the newer residents. There are 60,000 jobs on the other side of Central Parkway. Do you go to OTR often? It's not perfect, but it's definitely becoming a strong sustainable neighborhood and is far from being an awful neighborhood with people giving it the "college try". City Blights, when was the last time you were at 12th and Vine? or 13th and vine? or 14th and Vine? or 12th and Main?

If she's in her early 30's, downtown has been a listless, free-fire zone her entire life. As she progressed through her prime, OTR got worse, not better. It's hard to convince an entire generation to believe in a place that the City didn't believe in not too long ago. ^ Not sure how old you are but For someone who is in their early 30's, Downtown started its revival when they were 24ish and OTR started its most recent revival when they were 26-27ish. Also-- Someone in their early 30's is still "in their prime". I'd guess the majority of the people writing on here are in their late 20's early 30's with many in their mid 30's as well. The point was that early 30's is NOT old, and yet that person still felt that way. not that they "passed their prime" 5 or 6 years ago. It probably has less to do with age and more to do with where the person grew up. I know people who range from 20 to 70 who know that OTR and downtown are awesome, and I know people who are 20-70 who think it's the scariest place ever.

And back to crime.... More people = less crime. No one wants to walk out and do a drug deal in front of a few dozen tourists walking around.

Do you think New York City's economy would be as strong if the people you described didn't flock there as their one major trip of the year? NYC has a massive tourist industry and guess what, it's the people you described. If every one of those suburbanites came down to OTR twice a year we would be flooded with $$. you may want to be a snob, but I want businesses to succeed and neighborhoods to flourish. There aren't enough residents in the urban core to fill every restaurant all the time. And people in fairfield have disposable income to come to OTR twice a year. your xenophobic rants on who OTR is "made for" are quite disturbing. exurbanites are not going to move to OTR but you'd be a fool if you advocated for them NOT spending their money at businesses in OTR. Hell, even if they did move in, I"D BE OK WITH THAT. Because they would begin to learn, develop and grow as they lived here and experienced things differently. Many of the people who originally moved to OTR at the beginning of this current renaissance (~2006/2007) were children of wealthy suburban east siders (anderson/Indian Hill, etc). And they are some of the neighborhoods best residents and strongest advocates. Perception is king. What's going on in Downtown & OTR will ONLY be helped as the perception changes in the suburbs. No one wants to keep OTR as some hidden gem only for a select chosen few to experience. We want it packed thriving, developing and bustling. We DO however want smart people planning the development, etc.

^ Gotcha.

^ That's great news- Wonder if the Enquirer will cover it. Sad though- I was flipping through WEBN Facebook photos (something popped up in my newsfeed and i was killing time at work) and one of the most popular ones is the lion king, but when he says don't go to that dark area (badlands, whatever) he says OTR. hundreds of idiots were like "OMG so true!! Scary!!! Unless you wanna buy drugs!!!" etc.

Ya- Unless the place is being built out of Plywood, $36 mill has to be only the office part, not the garages or retail.