urbnplngstudent

I'd say less than six. :drunk:

It's all greek to me, but strange pictures in that thread. I've already been misunderstood for being homophobic in this thread, so let me just counter by saying I'm just dying to go to Greece now! As for apartments, I've been sending out a ton of emails and calls and mostly getting rejected on the premise of a half-year lease. I have no obligations past December when I graduate, but then again a year-long commitment probably isn't in the cards for me. I have gotten a few apartments that said they'd do 6-month leases. I'll get a fuller list here soon for you guys to vet, but for now these look like my most promising apartment leads: Walker & Weeks Building on Carnegie - $850/mo a bit more than ideal Plaza Suites, 3200 Prospect - questionable area? 1900 Euclid Avenue - would have to be on waiting list These would be furnished apartments. I'm still more interested in getting a double in Little Italy or westside, but like you guys said I'll just have to wing that when I do a pre-visit in July. The Plaza Suites look great and the price is right, but is the area along Prospect west of the interstate right? The coordinator at CSU who I've been talking to even insinuated it might be dangerous because there isn't much activity...which confirms my fears about the area. All of the reviews talk about cars being broken into and homeless people getting in and wandering the hallways. This is the property: http://plazasuitescleveland.com/plazasuitescleveland.com/Available.html

Tucson has actually broken ground, but not running. Tacoma is the newest and latest system.

That is correct, I apologize if any of you don't log in to read about Oklahoma, I was just apologizing for my part in that since I am here asking you guys about Cleveland.. of course I'm happy to get in a dialog exploring some common lessons between OKC and Cleveland. That said, I assure you 3C rivalries couldn't be near as vitriolic as OKC v. Tulsa. There is also a lot of animosity between DFW/Houston and KC/STL. States without a real clear urban center tend to fracture a lot in competition for attention, accolades, investment, state funding, etc. My niche is definitely comparative urban studies, which admittedly all too often is an endowment measuring contest between morons. I like to think I take a more objective and open-minded approach.. that said BRT is the red headed step child of fixed guideway infrastructure. :-P Retrospect is always a spurious thing, and I'll concede that the BRT has worked better than I would have thought, but if LRT was cost prohibitive there is an "express streetcar" model that would have been cost neutral with BRT and more ideal to boot. I personally subscribe to the urban school of thought that worships modern streetcar (a la Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, Tucson, OKC, Fort Worth, and all over Europe).

That is disgusting. I thought Lakewood was supposedly enlightened?

Yeah, no doubt it's a different climate, but you'd actually be surprised - there isn't much humidity/rainfall difference between Cleveland and OKC (which avgs around 35 in/year) but the difference is the heat. The heat in OKC is scorching, today it was only 93 and I felt totally zapped after playing tennis. Most of continental Europe, which is extremely lush, gets around 20-25 in/year by comparison. The difference is they don't have scorching heat waves like the continental U.S. Krebs is awesome though, one of the best Little Italys ever - a big source of debate in Oklahoma is your favorite Italian restaurant in Krebs - mine is Pete's Place, which also has a brewery (where Choc beer is from). McAlester is an interesting town, I was offered an internship with their main street program, their politics are pretty infamous..Gene Stipe (who is now in jail) was the Godfather of Little Dixie and ruled state politics between the 70s and his indictment in 2003, which wouldn't have happened if the Dixiecrats hadn't lost their 80-year strangle hold on state politics. I hope your nephews kept you entertained with stories of political intrigue, their home is definitely the place for that! It's unlikely that I will be fazed by the fast pace of Cleveland, but we will see. I previously lived in a city of 12 million (Moscow) and that was exhilarating, I loved it. But I honestly think sometimes a fast pace comes in the way of style, for example, nobody would argue St. Louis or New Orleans are fast-paced cities, but talk about bastions of style...

I was with friends from Michigan who were from the Lansing area and went to both OU and OSU. Lets just say I was really not impressed with much of Oklahoma (not to bash it in anyway). This was right after high school and I was looking to go to school down there. We will just put it this way, Oklahoma was completely different from what I was use to growing up back east, and I didn't like it. OKC is certainly doing some great things, but there is a lot of voids to fill in not just in the downtown area, but within surrounding neighborhoods. I guess it has a very southern city vibe to it with the rundown office style warehouse deal, if you catch what I'm trying to say. Either way, they are making progress, but from what I have seen outside of Devon Tower, I haven't been too ecstatic. About Toby Keith, that's fine because downtown Cleveland certainly makes up for it in the restaurant scene elsewhere in downtown from Playhouse Square, East Fourth, Gateway, Warehouse Districts, etc. Toby's is just going to be a part of a brand new mixed use development that will offer more than some chain. I can see it being a big hit in OKC, don't they have one though? Well, bear in mind OKC was a shithole in the 90s and earlier 2000s. I remember it well. It used to seem like only bad things happen here, ie., dust bowl, then bank crashes, oil bust, tornadoes, the bombing - OKC literally was the south's Detroit for a long time. In the last five years I think the state per capita income (which obviously is higher in OKC/Tulsa than elsewhere) went from #49 to #36, and OKC was the fastest growing city in the country in 2011, has had lowest unemployment for the last 4 years, etc etc.. some of it is obviously due to the oil and gas boom, but more of it is due to OKC investing in QoL - a lot of smart prognosticators have deemed OKC a sort of unsuspecting Portland on the Prairie. I can honestly say the rundown city I grew up in is no more. So I think there are some parallels to Cleveland in many ways, although honestly I despise BRT and anyone who's stupid enough to substitute that for proven rail-based transit. OKC's modern streetcar project (MAPS 3), which is already funded and breaks ground in a year, will really take the evolution to another level. The cool thing about OKC is right now every single week there are new downtown development deals announced. So that's what I mean when I say you're a little harsh on OKC, and naturally, anyone who hasn't visited in the last 2 years won't fully grasp just how extensive our rapid public makeover has been. It makes our first makeover in the 90s (MAPS 1) pale in comparison to what all is going on now. I think it's particularly telling that Bricktown, which in the early 2000's had the entire downtown spotlight to itself, is now the red-headed step child and has totally been overshadowed by Midtown (with its beautiful traffic circles), Automobile Alley (North Broadway), and particularly Deep Deuce which is the go-to area for major mixed-use infill. Devon Tower has spurred a ton of development on the west side of downtown (CBD, Arts District, and the new Film Row area which sprung up from nowhere). So I don't know how extensive and rapid-paced Cleveland's makeover has been, but as far as I know, OKC's is pretty unrivaled. Other cities that have thrived on similar makeovers, like Kansas City, Pittsburgh, possibly Chicago, definitely Milwaukee, and others come to mind. I think Cleveland's makeover is at least as drastic as KC's, and while I wouldn't put it up with Pittsburgh just yet, I also think it was overblown to an extent just how far Cleveland had fallen. Prognosticators may have been mixing racial indicators for prosperity indicators. Ie., Cleveland's east side is overwhelmingly African American, including some nice areas, which tends to suggest an African American upper class that has to be accounted for. Minority upper classes also tend to be very indicative of just how progressive/advanced a city really is, but I must admit I'm really interested in learning more about the racial cleavages in urban Cleveland, which is why I'm enrolled in Cleveland: The African American Experience at CSU. OK, that last paragraph was mostly extraneous, I just hate making a whole post solely about OKC when I already know everything there is to know here lol, and Cleveland is what I'm interested in now! I think the parallels are certainly there. I also think you guys would be surprised, among most of my civic friends and connections up here, Cleveland actually has a pretty positive reputation. Despite BRT :whip:

I think this is pretty spurious .. is there a very tangible difference in rating draws between OKC and San Antonio? One or the other. I think the Thunder have one of the more exciting images of basketball. As a younger team that thrives more on fast breaks and the pick and roll game, I just don't think the Thunder would be a huge ratings letdown. What attracts viewers outside of the fanbase is star power. OKC has just as much star power, if not more, than other teams in the playoffs when you consider KD, Westbrook, Harden (the league's highest-scoring "Big 3"), Kendrick Perkins, Derek Fisher, et al. While I admit Serge Ibaka probably isn't an "NBA star" he also leads the NBA in blocks which is pretty fantastic. Hard to go wrong there. The rest of the roster aint half bad either with defensive lunch box guys like Collison and Sefolosha.. If we can just get Barkley to never again where the cowboy getup..that is truly embarrassing :shoot:

Reading through your posts, you sound a lot like myself. I did a year as an urban studies major at CSU. I loved it. When I read your opinion on urban studies and architecture sharing the same core requirements, I couldn't agree more and immediately had to post on here. Anyway, I left Cleveland for the south after my freshmen year for the University of Florida in Gainesville. I hated the south, the cities had no character, and their idea of a great new restaurant opening up in downtown Jacksonville or Orlando was an Outback, I couldn't believe it all. So I decided to head back north where I am now a cultural/urban geography major. The best thing about Cleveland is it offers world class amenities at a fraction of the cost of New York and Chicago. You are literally within a days drive of 60% of the nation's population. Cleveland has awesome neighborhoods, the best food, people from all over, and the friendliest people in a major city. Every time I go to Cleveland I can easily put on 5 lbs. I was in downtown on Friday without calling up all my friends from CSU just to explore the city by myself (I am a huge urban geek). I walked Little Italy, University Circle, downtown, Edgewater, and Ohio City. There is a great vibe in Cleveland. It's being in a major city with friendly people, walking in Little Italy and smelling the food, walking down the steps at Wade Lagoon and seeing the art museum on the other side... looking up at Severance Hall where one of the world's best orchestras play. The lights of Playhouse Square. The tree-lined streets with outdoor eating in the Warehouse District. Or walking past the crowds of people on East Fourth. It is so hard to explain all of what Cleveland brings to the table in one post. I destroyed my brand new pair of Aldos I paid a ridiculous price for at Beachwood walking around Cleveland on Friday. But I wouldn't take it back. Cleveland has history, amazing architecture, awesome parks and neighborhoods, the best people around, extensive public transit, food from every corner of the globe, you name it. Coming from a small town on the Ohio/Pennsylvania border, going to Asia Town and seeing the frogs jump around in their tanks at the Asian grocery stores was an interesting sight. Cleveland is the reason I fell in love with cities. On that note, you will like Cleveland State University. Not only is Cleveland booming right now, CSU's campus is changing drastically. I can't believe how much has changed in the two years I have been gone. So many corners of campus looks completely different. Living options: Downtown is extremely hard to get into right now because there are waiting lists. Lots of great apartment options by CSU's campus. A lot of rehabs over that way. Check out surrounding neighborhoods by downtown. There are a lot of options in these areas, you have to look though. I wish you the best of luck. Your story sounds very similar to mine. Come to Ohio, you will love it here. We have a plethora of cities, each with its own unique character, and we are within in few hours drive of some of America's great cities and you can live in a very good price range in Ohio. Like I stated before, Cleveland offers the larger city amenities i.e. Chicago, New York at a much cheaper cost of living. I plan on finishing up my last year as undergraduate and looking to move to Cincinnati to go to University of Cincinnati (my dream school). Cincinnati is another amazing city completely different from Cleveland, but that's another post. Cleveland won't let you down, I promise. I just now noticed you are from Stillwater. I have friends from Michigan that go to OU down in Norman. I actually spent 5 months in Edmond. Seriously, OKC and Cleveland are two different worlds. OKC sprawls for 600 miles, a downtown that could fit within Cleveland's Public Square it seems.... Bricktown was ok. lol they should just be in different countries. Obviously OKC never grew to what Cleveland did, never had the money or companies that call Cleveland home, as well as the diversity in its people. I easily can see why you would be pissed with urban development in OKC. If you're coming from Oklahoma, I'm pretty sure you will find what you're looking for in Cleveland. Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of shared perspective on not just urban studies/planning but the built environment in general. Obviously Chicago is an urban city for which there is no substitute for .. but I've also always been attracted to nice middling urban cities like Cleveland, Cincinnati, OKC or Austin even, etc. I think Cleveland has one of the more pervasive personalities of these nice urban middlings, and that's a good thing. I'm definitely excited about this. Think you're a little hard on OKC though, which is definitely revving up like Austin in the 2000s, Charlotte in the 90s, etc...not sure of any metros under 2 million with more downtown development. Yeah - Bricktown sucks (least favorite downtown district), but at least it doesn't have an Outback Steakhouse like you complained about Orlando. Bringing this back to Cleveland, I will say I was very dismayed when I read in another thread on here that Toby Keith was building a restaurant in Cleveland.. for shame that I didn't arrive sooner so that I could help you guys organize to stave off such an embarrassing train wreck of a concept. I am so very sorry that you had to live in Edmond though. I don't have the words to convey my sympathy LOL.. I grew up around NW23/Classen if that gives you any idear of my mindset/self-image of "home," which is probably as far from Edmond as one could get. Probably the "Lakewood of OKC" if we were to draw parallels back and forth haha...which is too superfluous to even seem reasonably worthwhile. Kindof... You can take Abbey ave to Lorain and then there's a pedestrian/bike path on the side of the Lorain/Carnegie bridge that I've ridden across but I'd never recommend to anyone. I guess both Abbey and Carnegie are getting new bike lanes this year, but I haven't been keeping up with the status on that. May I ask why you wouldn't recommend the bridge? Carnegie looks like it would be a fairly direct path, I'll look into those bike lanes.. Traffic seems to ignore the speed limit and treats Carnegie like a freeway so riding on the road is a little too dangerous for me plus the curb is about 8 inches high (high enough you're in danger of catching pedals if you're close to it). The sidewalk is too narrow to pass pedestrians or oncoming cyclists without getting close to that high curb. It's certainly doable (I'm sure someone on here does regularly ride it), but there's a reason it's scheduled to be redone. Ah, I can perfectly visualize that.. sounds harrowing indeed. Hmm.. would you guys happen to have any insights alternatively about biking into downtown from the west (I guess across the Flats?). Sounds like my kinda place. Skywalks are kinda like the northern version of the corporate plaza plague in the south..or that's my theory. At the intersection of Clifton/Lake, the area south of the tracks gets rough. The area along and north of Baltic is fine. Where Baltic ends at the intersection of Clifton/Lake, if you follow Lake east of there, the areas north of Lake and then north of Detroit are better -- and getting better all the time. Think of the line of demarcation as an upside-down V. Even then I hate to use a "line" because neighborhoods don't start to suddenly get better at a line. But the railroad tracks (both sets of tracks) south of Baltic are about as close as you can get to a line. The Gordon Square area is fine, and is getting better too. It used to be a pretty rough area as recently as 5-10 years ago. The farther east from here you go, the areas get a little better the farther south from Detroit. A little bit south of Lorain is as far south as I would go in Ohio City proper, that's an improvement over 5-10 years ago too. EDIT: By the way, you may notice a cultural difference between East Side and West Side. The University Circle, Murray Hill, Cleveland Heights area will make you think more of an East Coast city. It is faster-paced, more "in your face", the architecture is more East Coast, and there are more African Americans, Italians, Jews, Asians and Indians. Even the food is different -- not to mention the Coca Cola. Yes, you can Kosher Cokes with real sugar in Cleveland! The West Side of Cleveland, Lakewood and Rocky River are more like Chicago. It is slower paced, more laid back, flatter, the architecture makes me think more of Chicago, and there are more new-immigrant Eastern Europeans, Latinos and Middle-Easterners. Of course, you will find mixes of all attributes on both sides of town, but this cultural difference between east and west is decades, if not centuries old. There was even a book written about 20 years ago titled "Cleveland - Where the East Coast meets the Midwest." I get what you are saying about the folly of rigid good-bad neighborhood demarcation - but I appreciate you indulging some of that for me anyway, against your better judgment, just because a lot of those are nuances I can only truly appreciate in person and after gaining some familiarity. It's almost daunting for me to consider going to another city to study urbanism just because I I probably know all of OKC and Dallas like the back of my hand by now. Going somewhere that resembles a totally blank canvass of stories and experiences to be gained is exhilarating for a hard core urbanophile such as myself. The diversity of Lakewood also sounds exhilarating. Honestly, everything said about Lakewood, even previous concerns about the overblown gay reputation, make it seem like a really cool urban area. My only concern was that it would be too heavily weighted toward one thing and as a result of being such a strong oasis for one minority group, not be so for others. Obviously that was an unfounded concern, and perhaps that is Lakewood's real strength, not just one minority (gays) but the strength of all of its discordant minorities. So as far as the west side goes, it seems like the "good parts" resemble an airplane wing (flattened inverted V as you put it), with some complicated hang-down machinery around West Blvd... if that made any sense to anyone but myself. And what I'm getting is that Gordon Square and the Detroit corridor eventually just blend into Ohio City, where not much further south of Lorrain matches up pretty well with the impression I have collected. And I will say Chicago is one of my favorite world cities, so perhaps that isn't a bad dichotomy up against "East Coast." I had figured Gordon Square would be nicer/more expensive than you put it..gentrified only 5 years? Looks pretty far ahead of that in streetview and bird's eye, but perhaps that just shows how fleeting the reliability of that method is. Obviously if I were looking for a more prestigious address, it would either be downtown or the developing Uptown area in University Circle, but I think I'm at a more simple stage. My grandmother, upon hearing I was moving to Cleveland, informed me all about the Cleveland Orchestra ... and while I know it's hardly just that in the University Circle area, just seems to typify the kind of amenity with less bearing on my life than good neighborhood coffeeshops for example. That coffeeshop culture seems stronger on the west side, or perhaps I am wrong there? It would seem congruent with the Chicago-esque, more laid back image of the west side.

Fair enough. That paragraph seemed pretty juvenile and does make me seem a little green... I have been to gay bars, they always have the cheapest strongest drinks, which seems pretty fabulous to me. You'd almost think I wrote the last post in a gay bar from some of the typos I was plagued by..mea culpa

Just got confirmed for CSU earlier today, which I expected would happen since it eventually rose to being my top choice (just not on the merit of the institution lol) considering issues I had with other programs and this program seemingly being a good fit for me, personally. And with it looking like I will be a more regular Cleveland poster on here, I should warn you guys I bitch a lot about substandard urban design. I'm an enigma on OKC Talk, which I first joined back in 2001 (when I was 13 ha), and since then I've just become a good for nothing complainer that developers say is never happy. Actually, quality development makes me really happy though.. as rare as that is in this country. Just wanted to warn you guys what you are getting.. :shoot: lol My concern with Tremont is that while it seems to be absolutely perfect as a neighborhood, it really looks like it exists in a vacuum not well connected to either downtown, and surprisingly even Ohio City nearby. I would probably make Tremont a priority if I could feel more comfortable about getting from there to CSU regularly without a car - while I will bring my suv up, my goal is to touch it as rarely as possible. I have decided that I will come visit in advance in July to do some in-person apartment hunting, and that'll just have to be a judgment call that I make myself I think, although I appreciate any accounts of people who have done it themselves (Tremont -> downtown on bike). I think the area of Cleveland that I most prefer right now is either Murray Hill or the westside Edgewater/Shoreway/Lakewood et al. Kind of torn, both areas appear to have great transit connections to CSU, not to mention palpable bicycle lane routes connecting the two (Murray Hill looks like it would be a dream to bike through every morning) although the westside would involve biking through the Flats, which looks less than bicycle-friendly upon streetview inspection. I have some interesting opinions, I think, on Lakewood. Frankly it conjures to mind images of a miniature Madison, WI right next to Cleveland, or at least that's the vibe I've been graced with and told about from friends of mine. I've also heard that Lakewood is predominantly a gay area, which is really cool, but I personally thrive on a regular supply of b%$ches and I don't mind guys hitting on me, I just don't know if I'd go to a gay-friendly bar (if that's the predominant form of neighborhood entertainment) without a guarantee of getting tail (the female variety), if that makes any sense. One of my buddies who's also a college student in the area is convinced that a Lakewood address would be awful for my sex life for that reason. That just sounds preposterous to me, and while I feel almost ashamed to even bring this up as a concern, but I am curious about the social vibe of Lakewood. Is it that same further east along Detroit Ave.? (hopefully nobody thinks less of me for being less than glowing about a gay neighborhood, and I esp don't want to offend anyone since you've all been pretty helpful) So the area around the west tip of Edgewater Park (like around Lake/West) is rough? That is a huge shame because I liked that area specifically. Or are the bad areas just confined to across the tracks from there? What about Gordon Square? Thanks for the specifics on Lakewood amenities and tips on the doubles. Even if I don't end up settling in Lakewood, those tips on doubles will definitely save me a lot of trouble. My preference right now is definitely west over east, but Cleveland makes it so hard with so many awesome neighborhoods that I could easily see myself enjoying immensely. Will do. There's actually at least as much (proportionally) for Little Italy as other areas on craigslist, but I think I should eyeball these units anyway. Would be a good excuse for some of the best Italian food I'll ever heard, or so I heard (everyone says that about their Little Italy lol. we'll see). Kindof... You can take Abbey ave to Lorain and then there's a pedestrian/bike path on the side of the Lorain/Carnegie bridge that I've ridden across but I'd never recommend to anyone. I guess both Abbey and Carnegie are getting new bike lanes this year, but I haven't been keeping up with the status on that. May I ask why you wouldn't recommend the bridge? Carnegie looks like it would be a fairly direct path, I'll look into those bike lanes..

Wow, to me that's just hard to imagine that people could be the root of the problem - in OKC we have our share of urban prairies that separate downtown from the south and east sides, and those are extremely dangerous parts of town. But generally the busier a low-income area is, the less crime you can expect. My grandparents live in a very high-crime part of S OKC but their townhome is on a busy artery and nothing has ever happened to them in 40 years living there as the neighborhood has slowly gone downhill. I would generally expect the abandonment and dereliction to be a bigger problem than people, but that's interesting. Anyway, I've been doing a ton of apartment hunting online lately. I think I've got a somewhat good feel for where what I'm looking for exists, and I mapped it out (in the green areas). In essence it appears as two separate bubbles (CSU being on the edge of the west bubble) that are separated by a sea of dereliction and sketchiness: My thoughts on these neighborhoods (and please correct me if I'm wrong) Downtown looks awesome, but more expensive, obviously. This is generally a higher-quality housing stock and the demand is quite high for these units. Tremont may just be the most promising option, as it's a very cool neighborhood where $600/mo can still get you something decent. Close proximity and great connections to Ohio City, downtown connections look more questionable though. I would be curious if there is a bike/ped trail that leads to downtown from Tremont. Ohio City is the west side's star district. Leasing demand is very high in here, and the housing stock is generally pretty high quality. Very few nice options around $600/mo because the location is valuable. Some questions about towering HUD-looking complexes along 25th, as I came across a cute flat that was affordable where Bridge ends just across 25th, but that looks like an avoidable pocket of Ohio City. How far west in this neighborhood can you go and it still be nice and vibrant? The neighborhoods lining the lake to the west seem pretty cool. These seem to have the city's nicest green spaces by far, and the housing stock is decent and affordable. My question is that this area seems so far isolated from CSU and the east side, and also I'm curious what kind of vibe this area has. It seems much quieter than Ohio City, for example. That said I love the green spaces and apartments available in this area.. University Circle appears to be Cleveland's dual downtown, and while its location is amazing for proximity to the east half of Cleveland, this seems like a very high rent area, perhaps the highest rent area of Cleveland. It does seem like proactive urban planning is really working its magic in this area though. Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights look doable cost-wise because several 2nd/3rd floor flats are affordable, but it still looks like a part of the city for the very rich. I wonder if the amenities, shopping, and dining in this area of the city area also for the very rich, and what it's like to be a young student amidst a sea of exclusivity. This area has the appearance of being the antithesis to Tremont, for example. I think when it's said and done, I'm looking for the youthfulness of Tremont, the greenspace of Detroit Shoreway/Cudell/Lakewood (Would love to know more about these areas), and the refined elegance of the University Circle/Heights area to the east. Somewhere that I could get a flat for around $500-700/mo preferably lightly furnished, within safe walking distance to everything I would need, and preferably in an area with a younger, but classy vibe. That seems to be the difficulty...but a lot of these options seem like you can't go wrong with them. Cleveland is definitely a much nicer city than it gets credit.

I doubt it was cost. The project came in remarkably under budget, which actually screwed us up a little bit because we had leveraged a tax increment financing district with just the tower as its premises but for the purpose of funding the downtown-wide streetscape proram (Project 180). I forget how much Devon Tower came under budget, but I think it was a third of the overall $750 million price tag we were originally working off of. 4 streets (out of around 15) ended up having to be cut from P180 for the time being.

You guys are awesomely helpful, I'll do a longer reply here soon though...

Believe it or not, that is actually a very unique material application for OKC, where even all of our public facilities are all brick, generally. I agree that it could have been made more significant, I legitimately think Pickard Chilton just had no idea what the hell to do with the auditorium. Damn client wants one, throw it in somewhere kind of a deal. However I think of it as a complimentary tactile element, yet is distinctive on the urban corner to stand alone. I think they wanted to avoid the appearance of a corporate complex with all matching structures.