thebillshark

1508 Race St. Owned by OTR Holdings. Incredible details on the windows, door, and cornice: Crack between facade and side wall: It's an absolutely massive building: Big hole in the back wall and roof: On the streetcar line and a block and a half from Washington Park. As far as I know there are no plans to redevelop; the 15th and Race project was to take place across the street before it got put on hold. Is this building in immediate danger? Stuff like this is why I keep playing the lottery...

Here are 5 qualitative observations I had about my uptown streetcar lines map (reference here: ) that I liked: 1. It connects to Wasson Way: This is a good thing even if Wasson Way light rail doesn’t get built. Someone in Hyde Park or Oakley looking to spend a Saturday could take the bike trail, ride onto the streetcar, and take it all the way down to the riverfront to ride around down there. Or, someone could use a bike for the first leg of their commute to a job Uptown. 2. It would work well with the new MLK I-71 interchange: I have to assume the new interchange is going to direct traffic away from McMillan, Taft and Burnet making them easier for a streetcar to traverse. This would also facilitate the conversion of Taft and McMillan to two way streets that would be required by this streetcar plan. The MLK interchange plan also imagines new development around Reading & MLK intersection (recently they are looking to land the NIOSH facility) and the Burnet Avenue leg would serve that area. 3. It connects high schools (Hughes, Dohn Community, St. Ursula, Walnut Hills, Purcell Marian,) some of which have a city-wide draw. Convenient for kids and parents. 4. It doesn’t necessarily take you to the zoo (but you can still get there if you want): Conversation in years past has focused on extending the line “Uptown to the Zoo.” The zoo’s great, but is it really the top priority uptown? It’s a seasonal summer destination (except Festival of Lights.) This plan casts a wider net connecting all seven hospitals (Good Sam, Deaconess, Christ, VA, Shriners, University and Children’s.) The medical sector will continue to be a driver for job growth as baby boomers retire & age, and it seems impervious to economic recessions. The plan also connects Cincinnati’s two largest universities (UC & XU). 5. It’s integrated with the Uptown Transit District enhanced metro stops: the Clifton, Calhoun, and McMillan stops are on the route, Vine is near the proposed streetcar transit center, Burnett Ave stops are on the route, and Jefferson stops are a block away. ( http://www.go-metro.com/uploads/pdfs/UTDBooklet.pdf )

slumcat[/member] That video is really neat! It's amazingly forward-thinking even during the golden era of the Automobile Age. In regards to GE and the Vox.com article, they are just a website sponsor and don't have any editorial control over content or opinion pieces I'm sure. I actually enjoy Vox.com in general, they are a new venture by Ezra Klein of the Washington Post, you can follow ex-Cincinnati CityBeat reporter German Lopez on Twitter for a lot of good stories.

Agree jmecklenborg. That particular Vox article was very light on data and specifics to support the conclusions, especially about the assertion of how streetcars slow down buses. (I did find the "cards" informative though: http://www.vox.com/cards/us-streetcar-trend-public-transportation/what-is-a-streetcar ) I think traffic flows pretty well already along our route, so a dedicated right of way might not make that much of a difference. I did think the article was interesting considering the source, it's not a right wing website and the article included statements like, "To improve transit, smash the car lobby." Kind of like getting hit from the left I guess. But, I really think our current project will be a tremendous success as-is.

^^That Sander Hall story is a fascinating story that I just learned about from your post, and about the same size and location I am talking about. As a child of the early 80's I don't remember this story from 1991 and haven't heard all the details since, even though I am a UC Alum. I found a pretty good video here: http://magazine.uc.edu/favorites/web-only/sander.html Tallest building to be imploded in the United States at the time, and the youngest of that size to be imploded. Built 1971 and abandoned by 1982! ( https://sites.google.com/site/ucwalks/points-of-interest/schneider-and-sanders-halls ). The roof was the highest point in Hamilton County. The main reason given is that it wasn't up to fire code. Is there a cautionary tale there about overbuilding for demand, a statement on the time and place, or something about a gap between design and intended use? Maybe, but not being too familiar with this story I can't really tell. On another note, Vox.com, German Lopez's (from City Beat) new outfit, published a blistering commentary on mixed traffic streetcars yesterday, actually calling them "evil": http://www.vox.com/2014/7/25/5937215/dc-streetcar-disaster-mixed-traffic-streetcars-are-evil (Written by Matthew Yglesias, not German, also be sure to launch the "cards" after the article for more info.) While I think you can argue with his conclusions, obviously a dedicated right of way is preferable. Any possibility of retrofitting our downtown/OTR system with dedicated right of way after it's up and running, perhaps that it could share with buses? Granted I'm usually riding my bike downtown on nights and weekends and not rush hour, but traffic seems light on the North/South streets. Are there technical reasons against it, a lack of political will, or both?

^Thanks for posting, I just had a neighbor ask about our streetlight situation, so that may come in handy. Anyway, I was thinking about my Uptown 5 route plan (reference it here and here ), and was thinking about combining the two shortest routes (Auburn Ave and Short Vine to Zoo,) meaning the streetcar wouldn’t turn around at the transit center but continue on as if it was just another stop for those routes. But the transit center diagram I drew wouldn’t accommodate that, and that coupled with the comments I received meant I couldn’t resist redrawing my transit center diagram with surrounding development. The new diagram narrows everything down to a single stop. As for the block labeled “University Tower,” I really wonder what a skyscraper (something 20-30 stories or more) would look like in that location. I wonder how it would alter the look of Cincinnati skyline from the cut-in-the-hill vista coming into town on I-75, and from other locations. Maybe it would tower over the buildings in the basin from the edge of the hillside there. I’m guessing such a proposal has never been made to the city. There are probably a million ways you could do this location if the land was made available, so my future uptown streetcar posts will probably focus more on the routes themselves.

^ Looks like it has some dedicated right-of-way too.

^Pretty genius. Avoids the Brent Spence bridge mess. Draws in more stakeholders (gives Hamilton County more political will to fight, because by benefiting Delhi Township it is not perceived as just another City of Cincinnati project.) Draws in interest groups from across the political spectrum by including a road component. IMHO, solves the problem of Delhi seemingly being an extra twenty minutes from almost everywhere. Plus, as you mentioned, it's a direct route that would benefit some of Cincinnati's grittier riverside neighborhoods.

Completely called it!!! http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/07/22/exclusive-uptown-consortium-buying-land-seeking.html

I think right now the area in between the stripes is the area where the plastic bollards will go, and the area next to the sidewalk that looks wide enough to park a car is the actual bike lane.

ucgrady has the best idea for a NKY streetcar that was posted on the Beyond the Streetcar thread: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=9.1155 ucgrady you should repost your diagram on this thread! Agree on the huge potential for development in Covington and Newport. There is lots of room for infill development to restore their urban fabric. For example, look at the area around the World Peace Bell, here’s this structure that was supposed to be a major monument and it’s surrounded by a surface parking lot. As for the 4th street bridge over the Licking, I always get annoyed when riding my bike from Newport to Covington that the path at the top of the Newport levee dumps you onto the super narrow bridge sidewalk there. There is no room to pass a pedestrian coming in the opposite direction even after getting off your bike and walking it. It’s really awkward! For a cross downtown route I would like to see eventually a line down Ezzard Charles to Union Terminal. I would like to have upgraded intercity rail service arrive at Union Terminal eventually, so I think a streetcar connection would be good to deliver tourists directly into OTR and downtown. Plus there is actually room for more development back in the West End/Laurel Homes area, most notably (ironically?) on the plot of land being used for the streetcar construction staging area. I always thought this would somehow wrap around Music Hall from OTR, but I just had the idea today that it could come from Court Street downtown (potential for surface lot redevelopment along the way) to Linn Street (help out the mostly vacant ground floor retail portion of City West) and then made a left turn onto Ezzard Charles. I always considered Horseshoe Casino to be on the current route, but if the UrbanCincy casino arena idea came to fruition just north of the casino, it would be nice to have it come a little bit closer. Once you get it over there, I don't know where you send it, I guess down Eggleston but the development potential would be limited due to the highway spaghetti in that area. It would be difficult to get up to Mt. Adams. I’ve also heard an idea for an arena directly south of the convention center, if that happened once again it would be nice to come a little closer to both of those things. Maybe you run a leg down Race and Elm toward Paul Brown Stadium so that the downtown system looks like a block letter lower case “h”, although maybe that would be too close to the current route to be cost effective.

Yes, I basically agree with this, except I don't necessarily think "as far from downtown as possible" is important. But low land value, yes. And definitely not on a major street corner. If it were going to go on the UP site, which is likely a bad site due to high land values, it should be tucked into the center of the block. When I sai "It's not like purchasing some property (for another car barn) isn't inevitable," I meant that use of eminent domain is inevitable. So while use of ED adds costs, it's not like the suggestion is earth-shattering compared to the inevitable status quo. Taking (a) strip(s) of land should be cheap relative to taking a whole block. When I did mention possibly placing the car barn on the site, I mentioned tucking it into the center of the block. But I think taestell is right that it's probably a bad location. As much of the site that can be put to economic use should be. thebillshark, I think in your maps you're not leaving enough room for buildings fronting streets. Agree that the car barn could be moved somewhere else, I drew it in just because I had that area already set aside for streetcars to park or idle. But that could probably be accomplished in a more space efficient manner, for example simply by extending the length of the "Y" leg at the platforms. The actual barn could be moved to a vacant lot out on the Walnut Hills route or something. I would think (speculating) if you built out all the legs on my map you would be up against the 12 streetcar limit. I heard that if a new barn had to be built, however, it could just be a barn and the current MOF could handle the maintenance. Agree about street facing buildings at the transit center, I was kind of dancing around the current Kroger footprint when I first sketched this out. But if you were redoing everything from scratch you could make this a pretty awesome mixed use development following all best design principles. I wonder what a high rise or skyscraper would look like in this location compared to the rest of the downtown skyline? I wonder if anyone has ever proposed one for Uptown before (excluding hospital towers.) In regards to the arena sketch, I just read the UrbanCincy proposal about building the new arena next to the casino. Agree that's a great idea because then you can get casino/Gilbert money involved. Would probably be good for casino booking concerts in all seasons too. However I was thinking that one thing about UC arena at University Plaza though is UC might be agreeable to accommodate a transit center plan like this. If some of the stuff I say seems pie in the sky or unrealistic because of x, y, or z, just know that I have fun kicking ideas around on this board and I always learn something new from everybody else's posts.

Here's a revised diagram of my Uptown Transit Center. White boxes are transfer platforms. The platform of the right is for Taft/Burnet to Hospitals, Walnut Hills, and Auburn Ave. routes. The platform on the left is for Vine St. to Zoo, Clifton Heights/Clifton, and Downtown routes. Red box is car barn. Blue outline represents a covered canopy. I took some liberties rearranging some of the street grid, eliminating Corryville Triangle Park. You could probably do the transit center in a smaller footprint than this if you wanted to, please excuse my MS Paint skills. Or... how about this one for the sports fans? Perhaps you can move the Kroger to across from Old St. George in this scenario. Since Xavier is connected via the Walnut Hills line, you could rename the Crosstown Shootout the Streetcar Shootout (although talk radio might have a little too much fun with that one.) And, Short Vine could be a game day tail gate area. And you would have a modern arena thoroughly connected to uptown and downtown via transit.

Thanks for the photo taestell. On my map, I was thinking each line would end in a Y configuration like shown, however, I hadn't considered there could be a stop in the middle of the "Y" like this. I think I should revise my Transit Center platforms and X's to reflect this configuration. However, I do agree with natininja that it would be easier for pedestrians and traffic to position the transfer stops off road where they could even share the same shelter. Then you would just need special signaling to get the streetcars into the Transit Center. It's actually kind of heartening you think we could pull off a system like this without a transit center, because I consider it a longshot that it would actually get built, and the land will probably be repurposed for something else soon. I could see John Cranley going out of his way to quash using University Plaza for anything streetcar related. PS whoops! just saw your last post. Agree it would cost some bucks.

^Here's my issue with that: I can't think of how you would maintain a regular frequency of streetcars circulating the downtown loop in that case (or any of the uptown routes for that matter.) If you had the first streetcar from downtown venture out on the 6.4 mile round trip Walnut Hills Route, and the second one do the short Auburn Ave Route, the second one would probably beat the first one back. Maybe a computer could figure it out, but I could see a situation develop where two streetcars bunch together downtown and then there's a half hour gap until the next one comes. Instead I was thinking there would be dedicated streetcars to each line that simply went back and forth all day to the Transit Center. Perhaps the Zoo route only gets one and the Walnut Hills route gets 3-4. The cars would travel up the hil from the MOF in the morning, stay uptown all day, and come back at night. In any case the downtown cars turn around at the Transit Center and head back down the hill to maintain a fixed frequency downtown. In this scenario the downtown loop is simply another leg of the Uptown streetcar. A transfer of course is less than ideal, but there would only be one, and I think you could make up for it with frequency of service. Also by keeping the lines modular like this you could deal with a problem like a car that needs to be towed out of the way on a specific line without messing up the whole system. I think you need the flexibility the transit center would provide, and I think the ability to take a streetcar off the roadway to deal with problems or to adjust schedules without going all the way down the hill would be hugely important.

Hello all, I had some more musings on the uptown streetcar possibilities, but I realize that in itself doesn’t really count as “Cincinnati Streetcar News.” So, I started a new thread, moderators please move if you disagree with this approach. Once again, here’s the map I had posted on the other thread for reference. Also included is a very rough diagram of an Uptown Transit Center located at University Plaza. Once again one way streets are reconfigured two way where required. I wanted to do a line-by-line breakdown, including miles, Points of Interest (POI’s), Neighborhood Business Districts (NBD’s), Census Tracts (2010), Census Tracts population (2010,) and Connections. For Census Tracts, I included Census Block Groups adjacent to the line. For census tracts adjacent to multiple lines, I attributed it to one line or the other to avoid double counting. Some areas of some census block groups were admittedly a little far of a walk from the streetcar line. On the other hand, population has no doubt increased in areas of uptown where new development has occurred since 2010. Also, I would think the census wouldn’t be good at counting the student population, and the “daytime population” counting the workers at all the different facilities would be a different matter altogether. Route: Vine St. up the hill Miles: 0.8 POI’s: N/A NBD’s: N/A 2010 Census Tracts: N/A 2010 Census Tracts Pop: N/A Connections: Downtown Streetcar, Uptown Transit Center Route: Clifton Heights/ Clifton Miles: 1 mile double track on Clifton, 0.5 miles single track each on McMillan and Calhoun POI’s: University of Cincinnati, U Square at the Loop, Hughes High School, Deaconess Hospital, Stratford Heights, Hebrew Union College, Burnet Woods, Good Samaritan Hospital NBD’s: Clifton Heights, Clifton Gaslight 2010 Census Tracts: 72-1,71-2, 70-2, 70-3, 29-1, 29-2, 30-3, 26-1, 25-1 2010 Census Tracts Pop: 13,254 Connections: Uptown Transit Center Route: Vine St. to Zoo Miles: 0.9 POI’s: Views on Vine, Stetson Square, Hampton Inn, Mariott, EPA, VA, Zoo NBD’s: Short Vine 2010 Census Tracts: 30-1,30-2, 33-2 2010 Census Tracts Pop: 2,777 Connections: Uptown Transit Center Route: Taft/Burnet to Hospitals Miles:1.7 POI’s: Christ Hospital offices, Cincinnati Public Schools Office, Hauck Gardens, Tri Health Bethesda Oak Complex, Vernon Manor, Children's Hospital Offices, Talbert House/Crossroads Center, Stetson Square, Barrett Cancer Center, Hoxworth, Cincinnati Board of Health, UC medical colleges, UC Health, University Hospital, Children's Hospital, Children's Hospital Research Tower, Children's Hospital Burnet Ave. Offices, Rockdale Academy NBD’s: some Corryville, bisects MLK 2010 Census Tracts: 33-1,32-1, 270-2, 270-4, 69-2, 68-2,69-1 2010 Census Tracts Pop: 6,725 Connections: Uptown Transit Center Route: Walnut Hills Miles: 3.2 POI’s: Campus Park (formerly McMillan Manor,) new Women's Drop Inn Center, Union Institute & University, Lighthouse Youth Services, Essex Studios bldg, Dohn community high school, Kroger, Walnut Hills Library, Alms Apts, St Ursula Academy, UC College of Applied Science, high rises overlooking river, Anthem Blue Cross Blue Shield Offices, St. Francis de Sales, Purcell Marion High School, Evanston Academy (Hoffman,) Evanston Community Center, Walnut Hills High School, Xavier University, University Station NBD’s: Walnut Hills, East Walnut Hills 2010 Census Tracts: 22-1, 267-1,267-2,19-1,37-1, 37-2, 20-1, 20-2, 42-1, 42-2, 41-1, 41-2, 39-3, 38-1,38-2, 38-3, 66-2, 65-2 2010 Census Tracts Pop: 15,455 Connections: Uptown Transit Center, Wasson Way, Future I-71 Light Rail Route: Auburn Ave. Miles: 0.6 POI’s: The Christ Hospital, Christ Hospital Joint and Spine Center, Taft Historic Site, Hamilton County Juvenile Center, Taft Elementary/Mt Auburn Community Center, Mt. Auburn International Academy NBD’s: N/A 2010 Census Tracts: 23-1, 22-2, 22-3,18-2 2010 Census Tracts Pop: 3,683 Connections: Uptown Transit Center Total Census Tracts Pop: 41,894

Two high profile stops without shelters... sounds like a golden opportunity for philanthropy or corporate sponsorship to me.

I remember reading 0.25 percent would be for 9 years. They could have done 0.5 percent for 4 but that would have been perceived as too steep. Whereas I can see not raising ticket prices at the Museum Center, I think they should at Music Hall. The ballet and symphony crowd is definitely more well heeled. The sales tax, although good at capturing money from outside the county, is ultimately a regressive tax. Since much of the Music Hall renovations directly deal with the user experience at performances I see no problem with a ticket tax on the folks that attend those events to help supplement.

I'm definitely not an architect, but in general new construction made to look historic doesn't bother me at all, especially as urban infill. Are there any modern companies or craftsmen that can mimic the elaborate Italianate cornices of the olden days? It seems like when they do build faux historic this part is usually left blank or there are just a few plain features added that seem to suggest a cornice.

Throwing anything transit/streetcar related items into the project/discussion will kill the potential for any county-wide public vote to pass. This may be so, and if so I hope this renovation will at least protect for some of the things I mentioned so that they are possible in the future, especially expanded intercity rail. Then we can sit back and wait for more enlightened times I suppose.

Been thinking about the uptown route a lot lately, and the more I think about it, the more I think there should be a streetcar hub at University Plaza. I have reconfigured my map with 5 uptown spokes, not counting the stem down Vine Street that connects to the Downtown streetcar, that all come together at University Plaza. Coincidently we are at a point in time when University Plaza is in need of major facelift. The five spokes I now have are University Heights/Clifton along south and west of UC, Short Vine to the Zoo, Taft and Burnet to University and Children’s Hospitals, McMillan to Walnut Hills and Xavier, and down Auburn to Christ Hospital. (Assumes one way streets reconfigured to two way where needed.) Attached is a detail of what I think the University Plaza hub could look like. The white blocks are transfer platforms for passengers. They could be sheltered from the weather with a contiguous roof and there could even be an indoor climate controlled waiting area if desired. The track layout would enable streetcars to change directions, access the tracks for each uptown spoke, and also provide a holding area to for streetcars to wait before beginning their routes. The remaining businesses at the site, Kroger and Walgreens, could rebuild at the site in a new development more towards the corner of Corry and Euclid, and take advantage of the high volume of passengers passing by their businesses everyday.

I found this document with technical specs of the DC streetcar system. I'm sure it will share much in common with the Cincinnati streetcar. Also, John Deatrick was/is involved in both projects. http://nacto.org/docs/usdg/dc_street_car_design_criteria_ddot.pdf I don't know about priority but I think it will probably have a special signal at certain intersections? I'm thinking specifically about the right turn onto Walnut from Central Parkway. Would love to be able to sift through the drawings and specs for this project!

Haha that's good to hear John! I'm sure you'll be around to drive in the golden spike on our regional rail system and beyond. :-) Regardless if the Eastern Corridor/Oasis Line is a good idea or should be built or not, isn't the Oasis Line the line that has the most engineering studies complete out of all the proposed rail lines? I've looked at the documentation on their website and it was unclear to me how they plan on the approach to and actually entering the RTC. Surely they have a plan for that though. Also wasn't rail considered when they built the RTC? What was the plan then?

Does anyone know how exactly passenger rail will be brought into the riverfront transit center? Is the plan for the Eastern Corridor to use the tracks through Sawyer Point and Yeatman's Cove? (How would that work with the heavier grade trains they have planned for that project?) Then what happens when those tracks end? Will they put tracks in the road and use that small section of Broadway St. underneath the plaza between the stadium and arena to access the center? How about light rail to the airport, which I assume would enter from the west?

I've come around on the Short Vine route since some of my previous posts, and I would support it especially if there were multiple branches of the Uptown Streetcar, particularly one that serves south and west of campus along Calhoun/McMillan/Clifton Ave. This would actually end up being pretty close to the original uptown route shown on the original HDR study. (Page 9 of http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/streetcar/linkservid/17D4E8BF-EE36-4924-94AAFBB630857475/showMeta/0/ ) (Although the study has it split between Short Vine and Jefferson which I don't think I would like.) It should be interesting to see what the first proposal for the uptown streetcar looks like- if it's just a quick and dirty straight line to the zoo, one that looks similar to the route in the original study, or if it will be a true system that can circulate people among the uptown neighborhoods (taking the place of the shuttle buses mentioned in the Business Courier article about the uptown master plan.) I suppose some of that depends on Cincinnatians seeing the true value of the streetcar, and some of it depends on what increasingly unreliable sources of funding are available. Unfortunately, the federal government is completely stagnant to what I believe is a crisis level (although they still can find a few hundred million here and there to shoot over to this or that group overseas,) and the state government has figured out they can pass the buck on almost everything down to the local level. Concerning the route, PG Sittenfeld recently led a project to makes the city's open data available for people to sift through. I wonder if there is anything in there that would be useful in planning a route to maximize ridership/development potential? http://www.opendatacincy.org/opendata/