thebillshark

This seems like it would be a great candidate for the new MLK interchange/re-imagined Reading Road area http://m.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2014/07/01/multimillion-dollar-cincinnati-research-hq-of.html

We'll need to overcome the "They can spend millions on project X, but can't build a new bridge" meme somehow then.

Yes I know that the current plan is the most immediately feasible option and the developer is to be commended by taking on such a large project already and those lots are moneymakers... but. You have to figure those lots will be developed into something eventually and that something will also require parking. Just daydreaming but it would be nice to put in all the parking the area will need on those lots now. Maybe you could throw a few floors of open plan office space on top, as more and more businesses are seeking the OTR name cache (Although I guess that location is technically Pendleton.)

Just walked the dog over there this morning. I haven't seen the renderings of the parking structure yet, but it just seems like such a damn shame to lose any green space, or any trees, to accommodate a parking structure when the ugliest parking lots in the city sit just across 13th Street directly opposite the building. Those lots are strewn with broken glass, surrounded by warped chain link fence topped with rusty barbed wire, and form a gaping parking crater in the surrounding streetscape. Disgusting. I'm sure the new residents of the SCPA building when it's done won't appreciate looking out the window at them either. It looks like this was discussed up thread, but I wish they would build a parking structure on those lots. Could the developer partner with the city and maybe the casino on that? Could they team up with the Model Group doing the Broadway Square redevelopment directly in between the casino and the SCPA? I think I heard safety cited as a reason for wanting an on-site garage. How about installing cameras and hiring a security guard? (I wonder how many units would you need to justify an expenditure like that?) It just stinks to have to make compromises like this when it seems like there are alternatives.

I really don't get their strategy. Why not build a flagship urban store at Central Parkway and Walnut, which serves both CBD and OTR residents, and close the existing tiny OTR store? Instead they want to build a very small store to serve the CBD and keep the existing small OTR store. Agree with taestell 100% on this strategy. Surely with the streetcar tracks going right past their building someone there realizes there might be a benefit to locating right on the line? On the midpoint of it as well? Ideally it would be the base of a new residential tower on the east side of Walnut. But if the owners of that lot hold out on them for too much $, they should just put it where the muffler shop is now right next to the HQ. (Muffler shop could move to the recently for sale garage at 12th and Central or other nearby location.) I've said this before, but I would actually like some amenities they have at larger stores such as bistro, salad bar, or sushi counter to be included.

...That's an efficient way to murder the historic character. Hard to believe that is allowed in a historic district. Did they get a variance or something? Anyone know? In my opinion the garage is tastefully done and looks good from all angles. By the way jmicha from your descriptions of construction in the area I think we must be neighbors on Race St.!

I can't tell for sure from the renderings, but it looks like there might not be a logo facing the river? Seems like this would be a low key approach?

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2014/06/22/musichall-unionterminal-cost-fix-icons/11231813/ If we're spending $208 on Union Terminal renovation, I think we need to revisit some of the ideas listed in this thread, plus add heavy emphasis on intercity rail starting with All Aboard Ohio's Hoosier Line Chicago to Cincinnati proposal. Union Terminal needs to become a mini-CVG connecting us with all our neighboring cities. Definitely build a parking garage, get rid of the ugly surface lot and add Washington Park style greenspace in front of Union Terminal. Include development on the farthest east portions of the lot, with a hotel for travelers. Run a streetcar spur down Ezzard Charles so that it is dumping tourist foot traffic directly into OTR and the CBD. With our architecture, brewing scene, casino, gorgeous riverfront and Reds, our city can provide a heck of a good time and has a what it takes to be a weekend destination for the Midwest and Upper South. The benefit of being a walkable city with a streetcar is that people would be willing come here via train, as it would be a low stress travel option (think about spreading out and using the wifi as opposed to navigating your car through interstate construction.)

Maybe that's for if they move the corporate HQ here??? :? We can dream...

Perhaps a Thomas Edison statue while we are at it :D They could throw in one of Tesla too, just to show that that whole AC/DC thing is water under the bridge... :-)

Cap it with a jet engine sculpture park and learning center!

Thanks. I wish he would have cited one or two examples of interested organizations or missed opportunities. Not that I don't believe him, but it seems like there are a TON of vacant structures in OTR, and 3CDC can't be hoarding them all. I think the focus of the community council letter is the 35 properties owned by the city mentioned in the article. I thought the same thing about listing out examples too, but it's probably not politically wise to do at this point because it may just create or escalate behind the scenes conflicts. I think the letter strikes a good balance acknowledging a role for 3CDC in the large projects while at the same time making the case for individuals and small companies to handle the smaller buildings. So it seems there are three different priorities for OTR, not necessarily mutually exclusive, that came to a head today. The first is the unity-of-vision model represented by 3CDC. The second is speeding up development by allowing in more actors to develop owner occupied homes and small apartments represented by Messer and the community council. The third is the need for low income housing represented by Vice Mayor Mann and advocates (although this is stated as a priority by 3CDC and the community council as well.) Once again, they are not necessarily mutually exclusive, but there are going be some tradeoffs balancing between the three poles.

Great News!!! Cannot be understated how much this will lift downtown into the stratosphere. In my opinion, all signs were pointing to this. I predict lots of spinoff development as well from companies that work with GE. Also, this guarantees the runaway success of the streetcar and the respresents the best hope for bringing light rail lines into the Riverfront Transit Center (perhaps from CVG?)

A lot has changed in downtown Cincy in the last 10 years... Sure, but how much has changed in La Rosa's corporate thinking? LaRosa's is definitley "old school" Cincinnati, and I may be drawing too many conclusions here, but this seems pretty consistent with the old school attitudes about downtown. Just like developers from Indy are coming in and doing residential projects here while local developers seem to have cold feet.

Sunshine skillet and whiskey. It could be called the "Granddad's Special"

I want a Bob Evans! "Bob Evans... Downtown on the Farm" :-D

While drawing the theoretical maps of the uptown streetcar, I thought of this hybrid light rail/streetcar idea. The Wasson Way light rail line is in red going to Xavier. Then, it uses the Walnut Hills branch of the uptown streetcar tracks to travel down Woodburn Ave. to Taft. (Tracks where light rail would run on the street are in purple. It would share Woodburn Ave. with the streetcar.) It takes a left onto Taft and goes to Collins Ave., where it can pass under Columbia Parkway and use the Oasis light rail tracks to get downtown to the Riverfront Transit Center. (Please note that the Eastern Corridor or Oasis Line don't have to be complete under this scenario, the tracks just have to make it downtown from this point.) Once at the Riverfront Transit Center someone could transfer to the downtown streetcar if desired. A Wasson Way commuter could also transfer to an uptown streetcar at Xavier to proceed to UC and the hospitals if desired (streetcar-only tracks in blue.) The previous debates about the uptown streetcar route on the streetcar thread apply to this map as well, especially the Taft vs. McMillan one (assuming both are reconfigured two-way), as I wonder if the track geometry at Woodburn and Taft in this scenario might affect that decision. (Note: In this scenario I wasn't planning on an eastbound uptown streetcar to be able to take the Oasis tracks downtown, only the vehicles coming down from Wasson.) Issues with this proposal? Is this an inferior solution to just building I-71 light rail? Is that too tight of a turn at Woodburn and Taft for a light rail vehicle to make? Would this be too long of a commute? In my head, I am thinking of a light rail vehicle as just a longer variation of a CAF Urbos 3 streetcar that could be used on the existing Wasson and Oasis tracks. Is that true or would the existing Wasson and Oasis tracks have to be replaced in these areas for a CAF vehicle to use them?

This would make SOOOO much sense for Kroger to do. It would be in the shadow of their HQ. They could design and build from scratch and make it as big as they want and include all their amenities like Kroger Bistro. Their own employees could shop and eat there. It would be a good location to serve both downtown and OTR and be on the streetcar line. In terms of a residential mid-rise that empty lot has just about the most potential of any on the streetcar line.

OTR Kroger is a decent store. That being said, with all the uncertainty over a new grocery as part about the Fourth and Race deal, the growing redevelopment and change in OTR, and the fact that it is blocks away from Kroger's headquarters, you would think renovating that store soon has to be on Kroger's radar. In terms of room to expand, there is a adjacent surface lot to the north along 15th St., and it looks like there may be some room in back of the store too. Also it looks like half the building has a second floor (Maybe they already use this as a stockroom?) Of course the challenge would be maintaining it as a fully functioning store during renovation. I think they should add a Bistro similar to the Kroger at Harper's Point on Montgomery Rd. Before anyone says "Of course only a fancy Bistro would be good enough for you, you gentrifying yuppie scum" (not that many people on this forum would,) I think it would serve a unfulfilled need in the neighborhood. Kroger Bistro has better-than-fast-food quality, healthy meals, at similar to fast food prices. Meanwhile OTR is in desperate need of more convenient, low cost dining options. Also, since Kroger HQ is right up the street, employees could utilize it for lunch.

A problem with LRT's running on MLK is the dip at Eden Avenue where a multi-car light rail train would "bottom-out" there, requiring a fairly long bridge over that intersection. And apparently, in additon to the cost, planner- and architect-types at UC and the medical campus objected to such a structure. Maybe Stetson Square weighed-in on it .... can't recall. But the topography of MLK is problematic for light rail. Maybe technology has overcome this, I dunno. As I recall, though, it was a daunting problem. Also a problem, icing on MLK, which brings traffic to a half there some days. Rail would fare even worse with ice conditions than cars. I think it has to go to Erkenbrecker and find a way out through Avondale to the east. David Cole and I spent several hours one Sunday a few years ago trying to figure this out, and we weren't smart enough. I talked to the guy at Parsons-Brinkerhoff who worked on the preliminary engineering and he said that they considered passing under MLK/Vine, bridging Eden, then underpasses paralleling MLK beneath Highland and Burnett. The problem was that doing all that got relatively close to the cost of simply continuing the Mt. Auburn Tunnel as a bored tunnel from Jefferson at Corry to MLK at Reading. Could you explain the Mt. Auburn Tunnel (what would it do, what would it carry, etc.?) Is it something Parsons-Brinkerhoff already has a design for, or something they've looked at, at least preliminarily?

Well, I do enjoy drawing lines on maps, so much so I did a new map based off several recent comments and the Business Courier article. I think of this one as “three fingers and a thumb.” Streetcar proceeds up Vine St. forest route. I drew in the idea to cross Vine and use Inwood Park for a McMillan/Taft underpass to University Plaza, although that could be pretty costly proposition. Large transfer Station at University Plaza to four different lines. Orange line goes west and covers UC on two sides, as well as Clifton Heights and and Clifton. Green line goes straight up Short Vine to the Zoo. (Although I have previously argued for Jefferson to provide a better connection to UC, I think if you can build additional lines to cover UC on its south and west sides, that’s a pretty good connection. The dilemma with the initial uptown extension is that additional streetcar lines may be years into the future, if they come at all.) The blue and red lines share track and head east on a reconfigured two directional Taft. The red line heads up Burnet Ave. and hits up the additional medical and other points of interest mentioned in comments in that area as well as passing pretty close to the re-envisioned Reading/MLK intersection shown in the article. The blue line continues east on Taft to cover Walnut Hills (possibly connecting all the way to Xavier?) In summary, this would be a more elaborate system that covers more places, but would require more comprehensive planning and money to get built.

Are you really eating it up? Or are you lining it up with a popular destination where the primary mode of transport is already walking? I don't think the situation is analogous- there is no University of Brighton with 23,000 students along Central Parkway. If the streetcar makes it to uptown, there needs to be buy-in for it. Prez Ono needs to be able to show this off to prospective freshmen and grad students. I don't think just one stop in the very corner of campus would do the trick (I think that would be the missed opportunity.) Just as OTR=streetcar in people's minds, make UC=streetcar.

PAlexander: Take a look at the map again, I preserved the loop on the one way streets directly south of campus so a westbound streetcar would still be adjacent to it. (There is a split at Auburn Ave.) In regards to the Taft and Reading intersection, agree those things are nice, but you can't hit everything. Also there is traffic coming in from the interstate onto Taft there. On the Short Vine vs. Jefferson issue, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I actually think the faster speeds of Jefferson would be a plus to get people to the emploment centers faster (connecting to the major instituitions being the the stated purpose of the uptown streetcar.) North of MLK, I don't really understand your point, but I'm not sure what routing off road there buys you in any case.

If you want go that route, you could take Victory Parkway to Eden Park Dr to Martin Dr (which goes underneath Columbia Parkway already) to Adams Crossing to Pete Rose Way and then drive it into the RTC. That's probably the easiest way to do that route, and it would add a stop to Twin Lakes, Eden Park, the very bottom part of Mt Adams, and the Riverfront parks...but I keep asking myself "Why?" There's so much less potential for ROI in taking that route over Gilbert. I was thinking you would want to make the time spent as a streetcar as short as possible to save time for the Wasson Way commuters. After looking at the map again, it looks like you could spur out from Woodburn onto Taft backtracking east for a half mile to Collins Ave. which travels directly underneath Columbia Parkway and ends at the Oasis tracks, completely avoiding the need for a super expensive bridge or tunnel I had mentioned. I admit I don't understand the feasibility and logistics of making continuous travel possible over those different lines, that streetcars might not be meant to be used in this way, and how this would work if there was a traffic jam of Woodburn. I was just thinking a commute where you travel 10 minutes on Wasson Way, spend 15 minutes to traverse Woodburn corridor as streetcar, and then 10 minutes to downtown on Oasis wouldn't be bad, especially on a smooth ride with Wifi. And especially if your employer was located near the Riverfront Transit Center (hopefully looking at you, GE?) Also, perhaps your significant other could use a streetcar that stayed on Woodburn to the Mcmillan corridor to UC or the hospitals for their commute.

Alright, one more idea, for now. Pretty crazy but here goes. Wasson Way light rail to Xavier. Then, streetcar down Woodburn (or combo Woodburn/Montgomery) to Woodburn and McMillan. (connecting to the streetcar line on McMillan like in my uptown map.) Then, find a way to tunnel or bridge your way down across Columbia Parkway to the river and use the beginning of the Oasis line light rail to get to the Riverfront Transit Center. (A bridge would be spectacular view.) I can't really see any locations for a bridge/tunnel that jump out at me in that area, but that theoretical point on the streetcar line is just so close the river on the map.