PHS14

Huh? Cleveland and Akron are sprawling into each other. I live halfway between them and see it every day. Unlike many here, I don't have a problem with sprawl in general, it represents people's personal preferences as much as anything else. But that's what's happening. You're right about the Red Line, especially how it basically bypasses Cleveland Clinic. The question needs to be, does the transit serve the development, or vice versa. That's a mission-statement-level strategic consideration of the regional powers that be as a whole. Right now GCRTA falls in the middle and does neither well. Akron has separated from the Cleveland metro. Used to be Cleve-Akr metro of almost 3 million people. The problem with NEO sprawl is there is no population growth to infill the sprawl.

"OK doctor, this is a diabetes forum. Don't waste my time talking about obesity, poor diet, lack of exercise and genetics. Just tell me what's the cure for diabetes." Misplaced analogy. The forces shaping sprawl extend to Columbus and Washington DC and go back more than 100 years through numerous corporate and public policy missteps, as well as changing personal preferences. If Cleveland was the only city experiencing no-growth sprawl, we could limit the discussion only to Cleveland. That's why I encouraged you to read that book I suggested. No, I don't need anymore of your book referrals. Sprawl goes on in many places; Cleveland's current problem is a lack of new infill residents. The area is thinning out.

Wow. You really don't let a lack information get in the way of sharing an opinion, do you? Most of the land use in the cities of Cleveland, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights and Shaker Hts were designed as TODs to maximize transit use. Shaker Square is used in urban planning textbooks nationwide as one of America's preeminent examples of TOD. And if you want something more recent, Uptown won the top Silver score from Institute for Transportation and Development Policy in competing against projects worldwide. https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/transit-oriented-development-are-you-on-the-map/best-practices/ What I'm getting from his comments is that the TOD of last century isn't really cutting it as employment patterns have changed, and RTA is still clinging to the old patterns. I would disagree with this assessment to a point as we are seeing University Circle-Cleveland Clinic (the second biggest employment concentration in this area) becoming a mini-hub of sorts for the 32/9 et al. However, RTA still overstates the importance of downtown in the overall picture, and I would suspect that is due to bureaucratic inertia and a lack of competition than any set policy. There's still quite a bit of redundancy on some of the routes between natural hub points and downtown. The Shaker Rapid leads the pack in this regard, both lines don't really need to go downtown and a direct rail connection between Shaker Square and UC/CC has more potential than anything else in town with the possible exception of the Lakeview Terrace site. University Circle isn't developing because of transit, certainly not the Red Line. The HealthLine is a nice complement but the growth in UC is not because of transit. I don't see or read any promos for transit with Uptown or UC in general. Same thing with Flats East Bank. Transit is there, for now, but wasn't even running full time when the project was announced and opened several years later. Now the WFL is on the ropes again. The WFL, like most of the Red Line, is routed poorly. Cleveland continues to sprawl so much that Akron has become a separate metro. The real problem is the thinning population with the sprawl and the declining population in particular. Jobs and new people are the answer to all these transit dreams.

"OK doctor, this is a diabetes forum. Don't waste my time talking about obesity, poor diet, lack of exercise and genetics. Just tell me what's the cure for diabetes." Misplaced analogy.

The answer in this thread should be limited to Cleveland since this is a Cleveland thread in UrbanOHIO. One definitely can't get the Cleveland TOD any of us wants...and the political leadership we need.

I'm more interested in Cleveland's epic struggle to get real, and current, TOD.

Wow. You really don't let a lack information get in the way of sharing an opinion, do you? Most of the land use in the cities of Cleveland, Lakewood, Cleveland Heights and Shaker Hts were designed as TODs to maximize transit use. Shaker Square is used in urban planning textbooks nationwide as one of America's preeminent examples of TOD. And if you want something more recent, Uptown won the top Silver score from Institute for Transportation and Development Policy in competing against projects worldwide. https://www.itdp.org/library/standards-and-guides/transit-oriented-development-are-you-on-the-map/best-practices/ Wow, you really don't let the facts get in the way of sharing an opinion either. All your TOD quotes have somehow led to a 60% drop in RTA ridership since its peak. Everyone knows that the Shaker Hts lines, Shaker Square etc were all that 100 years ago, before Americans got in their cars. Of course development back then was oriented around rail and streetcar lines. Was Uptown built specifically because of the Red Line or HealthLine? Or did Uptown garner its award after the fact?

I don't have a negative prognostication for TOD. However, with the decline in downtown employment and jobs sprawl throughout the metro area, into the Akron metro as well, TOD on RTA lines, especially the Rapid, assumes that residents will be going downtown to work. Akin to the Shaker Rapid lines from 1913 and even the initial Red Line route in 1950s. That's not the case any longer as RTA ridership, especially the rail service, shows. Entertainment and sports venue trips certainly help but will not carry a rail line; daily commuters do. It also helps to have good sports teams with lots of fans using transit. There certainly is limited to zero actual TOD in Cleveland.

Despite the optimism of a ''medical mart'' and Cleveland's growing role in healthcare, the city still struggles with a bad national reputation. This is changing, however, but the city and region need job and population growth to really turn itself around.

The focus on this development is its location adjacent to the W 25th Street Rapid Station. There are plenty of vacant lots to develop, of course, but the proximity to the Rapid here is the idea. One assumption being made is that all of these TOD rely on residents using transit and just the occasional sport event etc. but daily use for work etc. Not sure about the benefits of any of these TOD given Cleveland's lackluster transit use, especially the rapid transit system.

This doesn't necessarily negate the fact that they may be forced to use RTA.

I've said it before, TC went from Gucci to Hootchie and has yet to see any real benefit from the Casino. The WFL subway on Huron etc. is a pipe dream...but you can always dream. The HealthLine BRT is what Cleveland got from its 1980s Dual Hub Corridor subway plans. Not even light-rail.

What type of construction did the $150M refer to?

I've read all the posts, sorry. Someone else hasn't I guess since he assumed someone brought up a WFL subway.

You have succinctly nailed the problem with the WFL: ''it wasn't designed to move people, once downtown, around downtown but to get them to the touristy areas.'' That's why no one used it then and now so yes, the current WFL is useless without a loop. I stated that it was designed for bar-hopping Rock Hall going people so yes I do know what the WFL was supposed to be. The issue with the WFL is not its unpredictable hours or some other rationalizing by folks like you but its lack or riders. Where are the riders coming in from to go to FEB? The very limited numbers of people with access to the Blue/Green Lines out in Shaker Hts? Remember, the Shaker Rapid was designed in 1913 to bring Shaker Hts. workers downtown, when everyone worked downtown, not for 1990s bar hopping or lakefront attractions. Even with all the flats and lakefront development, the WFL will not attract riders if Tower City is the main hub to use rail to get to the lakefront/flats areas. You have an extremely limited base to pull ridership from today.

No. It's very different except to those who aren't familiar with the issues. Tell me -- what is gained by building a Waterfront Loop as a subway vs. an at-grade rail line on a dedicated right of way? Nothing except many times more cost. That's why a subway won't get built. I do favor the Waterfront loop as an at-grade rail line and think it is achievable once GCRTA is able secure meaningful state funding. I have never proposed a subway loop for the WFL. You are the only one mentioning that topic. I've been advocating a CBD loop, at grade, the whole time. How did a subway get in the mix?

Well, when your the mayor of a city like Cleveland, trying to reinvent and promote itself, and with its struggling transit ridership and all, could it hurt to take a couple of Red Line rides to the Airport? Pretend to at least promote using Cleveland's public transit system, especially with the incredible, all enclosed, direct access to Hopkins the Red Line offers. City employees in general and those traveling on city business to the airport in particular should take it as much as possible. If they won't use it, why should anyone else except those forced to.

''Pipe dreams are such because we choose to respect naysayers. Self-doubt is the only thing that makes dreams unattainable.'' Sound familiar?

Right, the WFL was built for bar-hopping Rock Hall going riders. Didn't happen. No plans, remember this was Mike White's Cleveland, but fulfilled a train line through the Flats that 'ole Jeff Jacobs dreamed up as part of his west bank Nautica Plan. The trolley was supposed to cross the Cuyahoga just east of the swing bridge (you know that railroad bridge there). Yes, another era. The Shaker Line (1913) built for Shaker Hts residents to get to work downtown. The Red Line (1955) built without the subway loop, decent in its original plan for the time but woefully bad on the Tower City run to University Circle segment especially. The later west side extensions were mainly set-up as commuter train stations with large parking lots, with the stations set far apart from the street. This when Cleveland had 914,000+ residents with a robust downtown. Cleveland today has a still declining population of 389,000 with the most distressed zip codes of any large U.S. City; we even beat Detroit on this list. 60% of RTA's ridership lost since the 1980s. High, if not the highest poverty rate, so your comparisons with these European and Asian cities is misplaced. Sorry, Cleveland is not Madrid or Paris. Cleveland's a great city with much potential but its rail system layout is the worst in the U.S. No other U.S. city is looking at Cleveland's rail system other than to see what not to do but they are looking at the HealthLine BRT. I'm not hearing or reading much of any of the lakefront or flats developments even mentioning access to the WFL let alone building because of it. In fact, I don't hear much TOD other than some on the HealthLine and your fantasy Justice Center/rail station juice-up. Btw, never mention good urban planning and Cleveland in the same sentence. Cleveland is a city known for its bad urban planning. Cleveland's changing its image but its reinvention as a ''good urban planning'' city remains to be seen.

it is a great idea, a pipe dream though. the WFL may as well be closed and perhaps set on a limited basis again. the WFL like the other rail lines were built for a different era. other alternatives whether it is driving, uber or taxis are the way to get from say E 9th-PHS to the East Bank or lakefront if folks are out on the town. not the WFL or Red Line. it will be sad to see the WFL stations rusting away again amid the new development, especially having that white elephant station on E 9th. even on a limited use basis the WFL looked run down. sparkling new ped-bridge etc and a rusting empty light rail station marring the view.

not as a subway, a surface connection. the current WFL configuration is pretty much useless..

LOL....she's the friggin' chair of the American Public Transportation Association and she just rode Cleveland's Red Line to the Airport last year? She only then saw first-hand what an unsightly mess much of the Aiport line is. She's a member of the board of trustees of GCRTA for then 9 years and she just saw the trash ride to the Airport? Incredible. Trust me, this lady is not on any form of public transportation unless she has a city driver paid on the taxpayers' dime. Everyone wonders why RTA is treading water. All political hack board members interested only in their resumes. Finishing her CV here, I'm reminded that she's the one with the Honorary CSU Doctorate and wants to be addressed as ''Doctor''...lol. Enough said. You can't make this stuff up. Cleveland politics is always good for a laugh at least. At a minimum, people like Dr. McCall should be required to take the Red Line to Hopkins for city-job related travel. Think Mayor Jackson or takes the Red Line to Hopkins when he travels?

It's not used much at all, not since RTA got rid of the old Campus Loop bus route. RTA proposed closing a couple years ago, but the Campus District folks fought it. There's no chance of any development popping up within a comfortable walk of this station due to freeways, railroads, women's prison and industries. And neither RTA nor Campus District folks want to see the Campus Loop restored, perhaps as an extension of the E-Line trolley. That's why I suggested the station should be relocated to where the new Commercial Road was built. No one seemed interested, including some transit advocates. Consider: east34-halfmile-radius1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr east14-halfmile-radius1 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr Here's a couple of ideas I had.... CPD & jail site2s by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr east14stationareadevelopment by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr Can't understand why this E 14th Station idea didn't gain any traction with transit advocates. Add in an anchor like the new Justice Center Complex and you really have a TOD project and a built-in ridership increase. The WFL extension-loop on E 22nd is essential but any of the larger north-south street would work (E 9-E 22).

Most likely. Any rider on the Red Line, at least the section in issue, would notice the trash. It's hard not to. The trash issue has been a problem for decades. The fact that she is just now noticing it is telling. Wonder if she uses RTA at all, let alone the west side Red Line.

Unless someone was born the day before they were hired as a reporter, their experiences will ALWAYS shape their reporting. No one is a robot. A reporter's biggest barrier to getting the most accurate story is themselves. Which is why ''journalism'' is a joke. The media is a joke. Everyone points to whatever their agenda is in the media for validation. Pointing out Rachel Maddow's Trump snippets...please. Stop. Or using Slate.com to validate a point. Journalism is a fallen profession like most others today; it's all about schools taking money and churning out unskilled and immature graduates...and, oh yeah, there really aren't that many jobs for any of these people. Enjoy your student loan debt in the meantime.