PHS14

A relocated Hard Rock Café in the May Co. building might work out there as well.

I agree. A Hard Rock Cafe is nice to have. Wonder why it doesn't re-open at another downtown location? I was not a big fan of its Tower City location anyway.

That pic reminds me of what a gash the train tracks are north of Mall C and the Main Avenue Bridge doesn't help things either. Can't wait for the Pedestrian Bridge and, hopefully, some urban landscaping going on in and around the tracks-moat. And the Browns Stadium pedway is looking shabby as well, acutally it's pretty tacky looking for what is happening in that part of downtown now. The lakefront needs to be Cleveland's centerpiece.

Out of town friends viewed Public Square from the S&S Monument. They were impressed with the monument and Public Square's new look. Only negative for them: that the Square was going to be disrupted by Superior Avenue bus lanes.

It can't be east of East 9th without reconfiguring tracks and changing railroad operations. Involving the freight railroads in a project that doesn't financially benefit them is a sure way to reduce the project's speed and raise the project's cost to insufferable levels. The city wants this built soon, without breaking the bank and in a setting that's accessible to pedestrians from several directions and from important pedestrian destinations. That's not possible east of East 9th. Just having a concern about the Greyhound Station on the lakefront. So this will be the WFL and Greyhound with access to the Amtrak Station? Megabus etc?

Well I guess my biggest concern about the grant is that this project seems to serve just one component which is Greyhound. This might be the best bus station in America and it's not costing Greyhound anything. Wouldn't the bid be taken more seriously if it involved the consolidation of Greyhound/Amtrak/RTA in one terminal. My hope was that the Amtrak station and the RTA station would be demolished and Incorporated into one project. I just think the commission will look at this and say 'You want 37mil for a bus station?' go back to the drawing board. Hmmm....a Greyhound Station at the foot, and to the west of, E 9th Street. If it had to be on the lakefront, it should be to the east of E 9th Street, out near Muni Lot. The current Amtrak station is an eyesore, completely scars Cleveland's burgeoning lakefront area.

Eventually or with an initial Detroit extension. Guessing that Lakewood would be more receptive to a rail line than Rocky River. Route to the tracks cutting through Lakewood now. I would also loop a line south at 65th Street, hit the 65th/Madison Red Line station, east on Lorain, W 25th Red Line, over the Hope Memorial to E 9th Street and back east along the existing Green/Blue line. Dust-off the old CTS plans for developing a station at W 44th Street. This would bring a growing lakefront population south of Lorain Avenue. Cleveland's west side lakefront, at least for now, has major high-density population potential. The population will come back to Cleveland west side between the lakefront to Lorain Avenue, at least up to w 65th Street as Madison Avenue will then become the southern border. Why not service the area with an extension of the existing light-rail lines? This would be a nice start to Cleveland's transit, all premised, of course, on attracting employed and tax paying citizens. New jobs=new people.

Not sure what the reference is to the past but the future should include light-rail extension along Detroit Avenue, providing, among other things, access to the lakefront.

Stereotyping mass transit, eh? Nice. What you call stereotyping, I call using Cleveland's West Park Red Line station.

Actually, you implied as much earlier in stating that the east Red Line is superfluous since we have the HL. The HL is the cheap version of the up-the-gut rapid transit line, principally a subway, that was being discussed. Yes, Cleveland had about 11,500/sq mi in 1950... The Shaker Rapid was, then, over 35 years old. The Red Line was just starting construction. Employment decline and suburbanization along freeway freeway routes certainly fueled Cleveland's population decline. No one is saying bar hopping will "save" ridership, but I specifically noted one tiny subset of this and you ran with it: that people did use the WFL when FLATS BARS were jammed ON WEEKEND NIGHTS and there was LIMITED PARKING along the East Bank. There's no reason to believe this won't happen again, once the new FEB grows into Phase III and parking options, once again, become limited. You refuse to acknowledge the fact that the main potential WFL ridership is people coming in from the outer rail system and riding the WFL to waterfront destinations, NOT people using it to move about downtown. There are/can be instances where the latter could be practical, but that's not the main advantage of the WFL, largely because downtown is so compact. The stiff hills into/out of the Flats can make the WFL advantageous to some people, though. Not true. Buffalo's daily LRT ridership is 15,700. While Cleveland's RTA doesn't post daily numbers, the best estimate from multiple sources, including the APTA which doesn't have RTA daily numbers either, is about 22-27,000 daily on the Red Line, and 10-12,000 on the Blue/Green lines. This means the Red Line alone carries more than Buffalo's NFTA rail line. My point was that Buffalo compares better in the one aspect I mentioned in that they did build an up-the-gut subway line and we haven't and, yet, they are smaller. You missed the point. I would have stated subway; not imply it. The HealthLine does do more than the Red Line, namely because it has passengers. The tiny bar hopping segment is just one component in the WFL's tiny ridership. The FEB may again turn the WFL into a bar hoppers delight however a major difference with the old and the new Flats is the clientele is a bit more upscale more and not as likely to park at West Park at 8:00pm (ladies make sure you have your mace), wait while avoiding the pigeon poop at the same time being leery of the others waiting for the train , ride the Red Line to TC, transfer to WFL, wait and ride. It's difficult to admit to something that isn't happening with the feeder traffic into the WFL. Then reverse this after cocktails and a night out at 1:00am. Sounds so convenient.

It's nice and clear for drivers but let's hope HealthLine riders will respect the use of the crosswalks and the landscaping beds in Public Square in lieu of trampling and littering that goes on at many stations. Vigilance will be required to protect this latest version of Public Square.

FCE already has offices nationwide and, I believe, is interested in residential/mixed-use developments, something it has already said is not happening in the Cleveland market (at least in FCE world).

So, in your opinion, would Cleveland be better off without the Rapid? You've said as much several times. Cleveland's rail system, especially the light-rail, needs to be tweaked/extended to maximize its use and development potential. I only mentioned the east side Red Line due to the much better service and access the HealthLine provides. Too bad the Euclid Avenue corridor couldn't have had a light-rail line connected to a larger light-rail system. Cleveland's light-rail is not used enough because it's not accessible and has a very limited route. The Red Line has better potential since it spans the east and west sides with a direct connection to the airport. However, its route as well is out of the way for the most part and runs through now low-densely populated areas. Cleveland leaders are to blame for the past, resulting in the current transit issues. Population and employment growth both in the city and region will increase the odds of higher ridership in its current configuration and increase the odds of extension potential. Creating a convention business downtown as a complement to the IX Center could creat a dual hub for visitors and conventioneers to transport from downtown hotels out to the IX Center and vice-versa. The IX Center was supposed to create a hotel demand in and around the airport/Brookpart Road. A Red Line spur would have helped. Cleveland's rapid transit system will languish until its use and development gets updated. I don't disagree with a lot of what you're saying, I would just put things into perspective. Cleveland has done quite well with mass transit, even though we're frustrated that service is shrinking, trains are falling apart and patronage is below what it should be.... No American city of Cleveland's medium size and low/moderate density has built, or is building, subways through core neighborhoods. (if you look at the Cleveland-commissioned subway study of 1918 -- the one that recommended streetcar subway loops under Public Square -- even though Cleveland was in a boom period heading toward it's greatest in-city size as the nation's 6th largest city, it still had moderate, uneven density with largely wood-frame, individual housing that planners had to cope with). Cleveland, historically, was not a well zoned or planned city. Railroad lines splayed all over the city; factories sprung up along these rail lines (which, as we know, both killed off Millionaire's Row and ruined our eastern shoreline for residential uses) and neighborhoods sprung up around these factories, where employees could walk to work. Early subway planners noted this made Cleveland a-typical in terms of planning trunk-line subways -- hence, they recommended the short subway loops, ... to be extended and upgraded to HRT at a later time... Even Denver, which I greatly admire, is building over 100 miles of electrified LRT and HRT commuter rail, but isn't building any subways -- it's entire network is at surface, within freeway medians or, like Cleveland, extensively along freight RR ROWs (Denver is exploiting RR ROW's like we should be doing despite our nearly 100-year head start). Baltimore, which is somewhat like Cleveland, has one HRT subway route. But Baltimore's an old, Eastern row-house city that's denser than Cleveland (7,671/sq mi vs. 5107/sq mi). Buffalo is the one city that's slightly smaller than Cleveland, and with a Cleveland-type density, that actually DID build an LRT subway up it's main artery (literally under Main Street), but Buffalo's LRT weirdly surfaces at the edge of downtown and runs in city streets through downtown. Also Buffalo's 1 LRT line is the only one they've built after over 30 years. I would like Cleveland to be doing more given that it was a pioneer in light rail and even heavy rail, for mid-sized, moderate/light density cities. Unfortunately the United States is a very conservative country when it comes to publicly funding mass transit and, quite obviously, Cleveland is in an extremely conservative/backwards state in this regard. If this were Cleveland, Ontario, Canada, things would be much better... No one mentioned building a subway in Cleveland and we all know what should have and could have been in Cleveland's transit history. Given the statements in your last paragraph indeed, things don't look good transit-wise in Cleveland. Cleveland needs population and employment growth. Cleveland was densely populated when its rapid transit system was built and now it is not. This is the reason, along with an employment decline, ridership has dwindled (pretty much commiserate with Cleveland's 60% population decline) and weekend bar hopping riders will not save it. The lakefront pedestrian bridge will pretty much eliminate any need for the WFL from TC to the lakefront. If one is staying at the Hyatt Arcade, why would you schlepp to the bowels of TC, pay up to $5.00/rt for one ticket, and ride to the lakefront when walking is free and much quicker? Btw, Buffalo has a higher daily ridership on its light-rail line than Cleveland's 3 lines. Buffalo is not the best comparison with Cleveland since there are many more people living around Cleveland than Buffalo.

I had been wondering about this project lately; so now, no Jeff Ruby's for Cleveland. Oh well. Ruby went from describing this space as ''the most spectacular'' he ever saw with nothing like it anywhere, ''even Las Vegas'', to no deal? Someone didn't kowtow or kiss his **s enough I bet and, as you state, he'd be another fish in a large pond. Quite the ego indeed (even in his pics you can tell he's arrogant). Someone or something else will take over the most spectacular space anywhere, even Las Vegas. Bye Jeff.

Yes, what type of place is this ''cafe'' going to be? A cliché coffee/beverage place with scones or a viable, busy restaurant type of place that will attract evening crowds as well? Because we do not want an empty PS after working hours.

I toured a few of their properties downtown including 668 and East Ohio Gas. Both seemed mediocre to me at best. Basically what you'd expect to see in any mid-market new development. I certainly wouldn't call any of their properties "high end", and that's what worries me about K&D having TT. This building deserves better than what they currently provide. Wasn't it K&D in the Stonebridge Condo construction lawsuit?

So, in your opinion, would Cleveland be better off without the Rapid? You've said as much several times. Cleveland's rail system, especially the light-rail, needs to be tweaked/extended to maximize its use and development potential. I only mentioned the east side Red Line due to the much better service and access the HealthLine provides. Too bad the Euclid Avenue corridor couldn't have had a light-rail line connected to a larger light-rail system. Cleveland's light-rail is not used enough because it's not accessible and has a very limited route. The Red Line has better potential since it spans the east and west sides with a direct connection to the airport. However, its route as well is out of the way for the most part and runs through now low-densely populated areas. Cleveland leaders are to blame for the past, resulting in the current transit issues. Population and employment growth both in the city and region will increase the odds of higher ridership in its current configuration and increase the odds of extension potential. Creating a convention business downtown as a complement to the IX Center could creat a dual hub for visitors and conventioneers to transport from downtown hotels out to the IX Center and vice-versa. The IX Center was supposed to create a hotel demand in and around the airport/Brookpart Road. A Red Line spur would have helped. Cleveland's rapid transit system will languish until its use and development gets updated.

I was thinking the same thing; Forest City leaving Cleveland. If it stays, can't see them building a separate HDQ building. Would make a nice tenant in a new building though (nuCLEus, SW, MedM). Who knows? Wait-n-see; of course, we all hope FC remains committed to CLE at least HDQ's wise.

Cleveland's rail network needs to be singled-out as the worst designed and routed system. None of the cities stated would build a rail system based on Cleveland's and would, therefore, have higher ridership. Look at Cinci's new streetcar line. Despite its questionable financing structure and long-terms goals, at least its routed better than Cleveland's WFL and other rail segments. There are multiple downtown and ORT stations, also known as where people are and where people want to go at a $1.00 a ride. Boondoggle or success, at least it has more potential than Cleveland's rail lines, for now. It needs to extend to other areas for the ebb and flow of people into downtown though. Time will tell. What's maddening about Cleveland is the system is in place and just needs some tweaking to increase its use and development potential.

That the project is being designed and implemented because of its proximity to, in this case the WFL, for use by visitors, residents and employees. There is a picture in today's PD of an empty WFL train bridging the FEB area with the caption that parking issues will, hopefully, lead to increased transit use. Even one rider on that train in the pic would be a 100% increase in ridership on that run. FEB should increase the WFL ridership somewhat, especially in the summer. However, it will continue to have a confined ridership base with limited use.

Please name one (1) TOD development that came about because of the WFL; in other words, a developer that stated a project was going in because of the WFL. I know the Maron Bros. wanted Uptown and their Ohio City project accessible to the Red Line (any #s on rider increase because of this?). We all know they don't use the Red Line.

What's the point of keeping the east side segment of the Red Line? It hasn't much, if any, true TOD. The HealthLine does the job and provides riders with access along Euclid Avenue from Public Square to University Circle. 45 minutes vs 15... the health line is very slow. And its shelters don't really shelter. They made the walls smaller than the frames. The red line also goes by the juvenile court on Quincy, which helps a lot of people in a way the health line can't. And besides, it's already there so we might as well use it. Are you proposing we stop? So, the east side Red Line is convenient for Juvenile Court. In Cleveland, that may be the best traffic generator for the Red Line. The Euclid Avenue corridor is the main artery between Downtown-UC and the BRT, despite the time etc. still takes riders directly to, for example, the Clinic, Cleveland's largest employer. The BRT has many stops for access all along Euclid Avenue. If you live in UC and work, say in Playhouse Square, are you going to take the Red Line or the HealthLine or you work somewhere in midtown (most likely you will drive) but the option is not the Red Line unless, apparently, your child is in the Juvenile Court system. Same argument for the WFL, it's already there, so we might as well use it. Problem being not many use the WFL and the Red Line in general but the east side line in particular. Of the 2 lines, the HealthLine provides the best access; the Red Line cuts through abandoned areas.

At least this is progressing with a sale date later this month. Best case scenario, of course, is the developer pulling off financing and moving forward with the project. Although a sale with redemption rights will continue the delay with a new owner, at least it would be in the hands of another developer that can handle the project to completion. This project getting done is essential to the Euclid Avenue renaissance.

What's the point of keeping the east side segment of the Red Line? It hasn't much, if any, true TOD. The HealthLine does the job and provides riders with access along Euclid Avenue from Public Square to University Circle. Stated this many times, the WFL needs to run through, at a minimum, the CBD and ideally extend to the west side. Not sure why all the transit advocates in this forum are so against enclosing the WFL through CBD yet are keen on a $1 billion Red Line extension to Euclid, hoping that this extension, with less TOD potential than the WFL, is going to create a renaissance on the east side.

OK, so most recent would be Mike White since he came after Kucinich. Jeez, forget it. You may have meant to type "most recent culprit," but you wrote "worst recent culprit." I think that's why you got the response you did. No, White's the worst of the most recent culprits, not the worst in Cleveland history, but the worst in its recent past. Depends on the meaning of the word "recent". Kucinich may be the worst unindicted executive in US history.