PHS14

Yep. The Trolley is there but I never remember to use it or where the different lines run. This needs to be promoted and marked more.

Chicago also imposes a ''CTA Tax'' on the sale of property. $3.00/$1,000 of sales price. Designed to assist with the huge debt and deferred maintenance the CTA was looking at.

I get that you're a transit advocate and user. The $10.00 roundtrip relates to other couples or groups opting to use the WFL vs. simply driving to, say FEB. Remove yourself from the equation and think what out of town visitors or other locals would do, not you. You're the exception, not the norm. Would a group of 4 pay $20.00 for a roundtrip on the WFL from E 9th to FEB? I have friends from DC that love visiting CLE. One year they used the Red Line from the airport and transferred to the HealthLine for a trip up Euclid to CSU. Then we took the WFL (there were 4 in our group and we were the only WFL passengers) from the Rock Hall, to TC, out to the airport. Total trip $20.00. Two train waits. That was the last time they used RTA, and not because of the cost. Every trip since then: car rental. Weekend car rentals are inexpensive. When there are options, most people will not opt for public transit.

1 other woman. From her badge, she appeared to be a Rock Hall employee. This isn't relevant on 2 counts, First, my friend and I didn't meet at in PHS, we met at the Galleria. If we had met in PHS, I/we would have likely used the HL or the Trolley into Public Sq and then, maybe walked down to FEB, although the WFL from TC could have been a possibility. Secondly, if someone were visiting and staying at the Schofield or The 9 and wanted to meet nearby for food/drinks, then the same would have been true as what I just mentioned. However, if and I was coming from in from Shaker or somewhere East along the Blue or Green Lines to meeting them, the scenario would have been similar to what actually happened with my friend, as those 'visitors' would have likely have traveled the short distance -- probably on foot -- up E. 9th for our meeting for food/drinks at the Winking Lizard, then WFL to FEB/Alley Cat, etc... The point being is that the WFL should be viewed in the arsenal of RTA routes that allows flexibility and the ease of travel. People seem to think it's acceptable to use the Trolleys to move about downtown because they are unique/cool looking and, most importantly, FREE... But why would one rule out the possibility of the using the WFL from the Erieview/North Coast area to the Flats?... It's literally a mile away and down a steep hill (and up that hill if you're going the other direction), so the WFL would seem the way to go; it's just 2 blocks from anywhere in the Erieview/North Coast area... By the way, the arm-twisting of my friend ended when I noted to her the thought of her likely having to go fetch her car only to have to pay another $10 for parking at FEB -- the place was packed that night, and even just trying to find an empty space, even in the pay lots, would have been a major pain in the a$$. Of course, gentleman that I am, I would have footed the 2nd parking fee, but even she asked: why even do this? Let's ride! I agree completely. The fact that Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel and (then) Massachusetts Gov. Michael Dukakis rides/rode their rapid transit systems to work are/were huge examples for their constituents to ride (of course, in both Chicago and Boston, quite obviously such high profile examples are not needed to motivate their locals to ride)... Having Mayor Jackson and Valarie McCall (a local and national transit official, no less) to ride RTA would set major examples to our skeptical riding populace here... Several times I've lamented the fact that ex-Mayor Campbell didn't ride the rails, when with the Blue Line stop being a mere block from her house near Shaker Sq, she could have ridden the friggin' thing to the back door of City Hall and her office... Just another blown opportunity in the tortured annals of Cleveland rail transit. Meeting at PHS was a hypothetical situation (please note the term ''if'') and guests at the Schofield etc. were not visiting you; just random CLE visitors wanting to get to FEB. Hotel will either arrange car service or guests will use Uber. People visiting NorthCoast or Erieview should use the WFL, it's accessible from those locations. But how many people do? Not many at all as we see. The lakefront and Flats need to attract lots of people to get the WFL numbers up as long as the WFL is confined to its current route. WFL back to its bar-hopping crowd again at least. Also, the cost of 2 roundtrip tickets on the WFL to go to go from E. 9th to FEB is the same as the $10.00 FEB parking but without the wait for 2 WFL trains without being concerned about the WFL ending its service at a particular time. Maybe Dr. McCall at City Hall could promote RTA with downtown-UC hotel guests. A recent hotel review stated that guests were having dinner in Little Italy with the car service arranged by the hotel. No mention of the HL or Red Line options.

Agree that if you live on or near the Green/Blue lines and your destination is FEB, lakefront, or areas south-adjacent thereto, the WFL is great. Cleveland residents were once transit-progressive but population decline and sprawl have made them transit-regressive. Arm-twisting to get someone to use transit is not a good sign; what were her expectations about the WFL before she used it? How many people were on the WFL when you used it? What if you had met in Playhouse Square; how would you get to FEB? Or someone visiting CLE and staying at the Schofield or The 9? Trust me, I want to see lots of riders on all the trains. I've already called out the RTA brass and Cleveland leadership about using RTA (maybe if Jackson could be seen on the Red Line to the airport once in a while and Dr. Valarie McCall just noticing the trash issue along the same route). If these folks don't use public transit, why would anyone else. Cleveland leadership needs to get on-board and utilize the RTA as a means of economic development.

Missed this but I want to see it. Portland is the gold star transit system in the U.S. However, even with its reputation, Portland has seen budget issues and stagnant to declining ridership numbers. I suspect this has to do with fare increases and a bad economy. The Streetcar Line recently closed 5 stations due to the line running slow. Even if the ridership numbers do increase, Portland's transit share of commuters has been stagnant to decline. Must not be keeping up with the area's growing population; more people getting in cars than on the train. The Pearl District is nice, but an expensive place to live. Something both CIN and CLE need; ORT in CIN with its streetcar and Detroit-Shoreway in CLE with a light-rail extension.

What else is a short walk from a Rapid/BRT station and other connecting high-frequency transit lines? Don't understand this question?

OK, got it. Don't bring up topics such as, in this case, the Cincinnati Streetcar and its future extensions in a Cleveland Transit thread. This always guarantees no follow-up questions. Feel free to discuss the Streetcar and its extensions in the Cincinnati Streetcar thread.

Critical of what plans to improve the Rapid? Residential development around rapid stations is a good thing. The Red Line is different from the WFL; two separate trains and issues. We already know that UC is growing and has Red Line stations and the HealthLine but the topic is the WFL. Hardly think that running the WFL up E 9th Street is grandiose and it's even more odd since you suggested the same thing. Talk about grandiose, financially questionable projects, let's start with the CIN streetcar. You mentioned that it needs to be extended; I mention that CLE's existing light-rail lines should be extended to the west side, and this is grandiose? CIN city neighborhoods are not what I would call densely populated and yet you suggest a streetcar connecting neighborhoods for occasional riders. People drive cars in CIN, its current transit ridership is lame for a metro area of its size. Building bus ridership first should be a priority, not building a rail network. Of course metro areas have most of its people in the suburbs which is why DC's system runs to outlying areas. DC Metro has many safety issues to address so please remember that these rail lines are very expensive to operate and maintain. The topic cities are CLE and CIN however, both of which had substantial population declines; CIN is est to see its pop. inching up while CLE looks like its still declining. CLE's system may cater to commuters, at least the ones that use transit and still work downtown. You should have seen the parking lots at Triskett, West Park, Puritas and Brookpark stations back in the day; packed with cars. Today, not so much. The empty land should be used for other purposes like residential and commercial development. No doubt that UC and downtown are served by good transit and of course employment and density will spur more use in these locations in general but the city and region need it in particular. CLE and CIN both are considered to be economically distressed cities (both in the top 10, CLE worst off than Detroit) and both cities have sponsored the WFL and Streetcar respectively. What are the targeted demographics in CIN's neighborhoods for using the Streetcar? Given the current streetcar route, CIN comes off a bit like it just wants to say it has a streetcar as a way of changing its image and catering to the millennials' ''demand'' for transit. Streetcars are not good for regional transit; they can be slow so CIN needs to step it up now with its streetcar extensions otherwise it will have the occasional users and a few core riders. I don't understand the logic of this route to justify the cost; wait until the operating and maintenance bills start adding up. Where are the millennials in CLE with its, compared to CIN, vast transit system?

Transit systems should not be built for and used by commuters only but daily commuters are what carry them at the end of the day. Of course transit should provide use for people like you hopping around town on the rapid. I take the Red Line to Airport all the time, it's one of the top rail lines into an airport convenience wise and was the 1st in the U.S. to have airport rail (1968). I'm not scoffing at the Rapid's shortcomings; I use it regularly. Working to make what CLE has rail-wise even better is why I think the system needs, at a minimum, a little tweaking. CBD Loop (which you mentioned), extension to west side along Detroit Avenue, even a Red Line extension to the IX Center, the 10th largest convention center in the U.S. with approximately 2 million visitors/year (the new downtown convention center is not CLE's only convention space). It sits adjacent to the airport. As far as closing east side stations go, good luck with that politically. CLE and CIN transit systems are not comparable but both cities have sprawl and both need residential and employment growth. The CIN metro may be a bit larger but it sprawls into more rural areas while CLE's CSA is approximately 3.5 million=more people to draw from for potential transit riders. It's been 30 years since CLE's transit ridership cratered; during that time the city built the WFL. You see how well that worked. It's all about attracting jobs and residents otherwise, like CIN's streetcar, it will be the occasional users, special events riders (at least in CLE's case-not so much in CIN). Cleveland does have a big-city feel to it, no doubt, it was once a top 5 city and one of the most densely populated cities to boot. Isn't mentioning the shortcomings and offering ideas part of the method to address the shortcomings? Not sure why you went with the ''scoffing'' route? (pardon the pun)

No I do not suppose that a couple hundred units built on the muni lot will quote unquote Save The Waterfront Line. The line is inefficient but it does exist. And so do the muni lots, at the north edge of the CBD, right on this line. Both are assets. Both are underutilized. The waterfront line's full potential will be limited as long as it remains with its existing terminus. But we can't turn back the clock, and I can't advocate abandoning it when only 0.5 of the 3-4 TOD that should be built along the line have been built. The argument and economic case for the loop/extension that is required to make this thing really work for Cleveland can't be made without development on the obvious nodes that do exist. That development will never happen if you shut the service down, or of it does, you make it much more auto dependent than it needs to be. The obvious development nodes do exist: they're known as E 9th Street/Playhouse Square/Cleveland State/the 9-12 District/Gateway/The 9/The Huntington Bldg./etc.

Cincinnati's streetcar is the opposite situation with CLE's rail lines. The streetcar being limited to Cinci's compact and walkable downtown; CLE's rail lines extend east-west across the city with some suburban access but with only 1 real station downtown and some side-show light-rail stations skirting half-way around the CBD. Cinci's short-term issue is, after the initial novelty wears off, extending the lines out to the neighborhoods and suburbs to bring commuters and others into the city. Why drive to a Reds game, pay to park away from the stadium, pay to use the streetcar, wait for it and ride it to the stadium. The vast majority of CIN and CLE population live in the suburbs and other outlying areas so it's a tough sell to get people on transit again in either city other than, in CLE case, going to a special downtown event while CIN's streetcar doesn't sound like it will work for large events (it will be closed for Oktoberfest). The streetcar and the HealthLine may not be spurring development directly but neither is inhibiting development. Cinci needs to be planning and implementing extensions to its streetcar and CLE needs to, at a minimum, enclose the light-rail half-arc around its CBD. Most people visiting CLE would never know there is a rail network in the city. Other than seeing an empty WFL train go by in the Flats, you would never know there is much more to it.

Right now, asking for a subsidy contribution from the Browns etc isn't going to happen. Browns fans will still go to the games with or without a WFL. It's current configuration does not connect people and locations efficiently.

As the late Cleveland talk-show host, Gary Dee, would say: Amen and Hallelujah! Again, we're supposed to rely on residents in a developed muni lot to save the WFL with occasional rides to FEB, the WSM and Ohio City? That's not gonna make the WFL a success nor will a rush hour only shuttle up E 9th Street take the place of a rail line connected through the CBD to the Red, Blue and Green Lines. 20 years of the City of Cleveland sponsored WFL and its ridership is estimated at 400 riders a day. Maybe more of the couple of hundred FEB residents will opt to take the WFL to Muni Lot and hop on the E 9th Street shuttle to go to work in say PHS. Add another 3 riders if that happens. Besides, the shuttle is for people parking at Muni Lot not the Shaker Square resident working in the 9-12 District; rides in from SS, rides through the Flats, exits train at Muni Lot and shuttles up E 9th. Not likely or logical.

You raise some good points and, yes, there is the ongoing tension re rail transit, esp in Cleveland. I would only modify one comment: "Given that the WFL has been around for a while at this point, it's clear that developers obviously don't feel that it is such an asset, and expecting new TOD to magically pop-up around a rail line that's been in existence for 20+ years is probably not wise." My problem is that I don't judge a rail line's asset/non-asset, success or failure status based on developers not building TOD. This is because, as a metropolitan area, we don't have a clue about TOD-- It seems that, after Shaker Square in 1929, we've forgotten what it is... Once again, look at all the undeveloped land around our Rapid stations and, even where there's potential; look at all the gas stations, juvenile prison complexes along with the endless array of strip shopping, fast foods, used car lots and 1-story buildings along with, often, ... nothing, built next to high-potential, high-speed rapid rail stations... Why does this keep happening? And forget TOD, it took this town 61 years to relocate a Rapid station just a thousand feet from the edge of Lakeview Cemetery to the front door of the bustling main street of Little Italy which is perhaps Cleveland's most densely populated residential district ... ... ya think, collectively, we just may not have gotten this whole rapid transit thing down? It's largely because the prevailing viewpoint that has taken hold here, over time, is that rapid transit (of the rail type), isn't all that special. To some, including various unnamed leaders, the view is that the Rapid is little more than an overly expensive bus line with headaches and expensive maintenance issues... If you could somehow lift up our Rapid system and drop it on any number of other cities that are lacking in transit, you'd see high-density, high-quality TOD all over the place. Other places appreciate rail. Not here. ... So, as I see it, the problem isn't the Rapid ... As the saying goes: "We've met the enemy, and it is us..." Much of the delay in relocating to the current Little Italy station location was Little Italy, with its dense population, didn't want it there. This was a ''closed'' neighborhood prior to its recently becoming a ''hip'' hang out at restaurants etc and now, on occasion, you can be the victim of an armed robbery, even on a Sunday morning. You should judge a rail line's success or asset whatever by its use. The WFL continues to not be a success.

The WFL is great if you live in, for example, Shaker Square and work in E&Y Tower. Otherwise, the WFL is lacking core commuters/riders which are needed to sustain this line. People drive their cars because it's more convenient. The base WFL commuters is very limited even though one can access the WFL from the northern core of downtown, esp. North Pointe, City Hall, Federal Building. Where are all of those workers on the WFL? If they even use transit, let alone a rail line, they walk to Tower City for the Red Line. Again, key being ''if'' they use transit at all. The WFL was designed for bar-hopping in the 1990s with an expanded station for 8 Browns games a year. I would definitely count the Federal Building, North Point, the AT&T (or Verizon) complex, City Hall, Erieview/Galleria, etc, etc,... Query: if you are already ON a Blue or Green Line train coming from Shaker/the East Side heading through to the Waterfront, why would you get off and walk to any of those places, if the WFL will take you within a block/block and a half of those places much faster than walking? That's counter-intuitive, and this is during NICE WEATHER; the case gets even stronger against your premise when the weather is bad. Your premise assumes that there are lots of workers living along the Blue Line that work in and around the locations you mentioned. I included North Pointe etc., basically anywhere adjacent or close to the lakefront. These folks are already a part of the est 400 daily riders on the WFL. I asked where all these people are now? Those using the WFL are already doing so in minimal numbers. The Green/Blue Lines have low ridership numbers anyway regardless of destination. Erieview, for example, is struggling with its commercial space and is another candidate for residential conversion. I bet not many, if any, workers there now use the WFL. Why would they? Why would a Red Line commuter working at, say, E9th/St Clair walk to the WFL, ride it to TC, then wait for a Red Line. Inclement weather may bump rail ridership on occasion but that, along with ''downtown events'' are not sufficient to carry Cleveland's current rail line configuration. There needs to be serious job creation and expansion convenient to rail to increase the daily ridership with a complement of riders going to the lakefront, sporting events and other events such as the Cleveland Film Festival; only then will CLE have robust rail transit again. I've stated this before: no other city implementing or expanding rail transit is looking at Cleveland as a model.

Where were your objections to the garish address sign on the building demo'd for the Medical Mart? Perhaps you don't recall that since the Hilton sign is much more muted than the loud-red numbers announcing that building's address. Of course Hilton is going to want its name on the sides of the building. It's called advertisement. This signage is not bad at all and works well with the Group Plan.

You know what that's called? A good start. The lakefront development will be great too, but is decades overdue. But what's just as overdue is development on the Muny Lot and Davenport Bluffs. That huge sea of parking next to a rail transit line that doesn't contribute to the transit is a tremendous waste. And there's no reason on earth why high-rise downtown development suddenly ends at East 12th along on a bluff overlooking a Great Lake with a rail transit station so close. The construction of the low-rise WKYC and the FBI HQ in this area shows either A. how bad land use planning is in Cleveland that these two uses were permitted at that location; or B. how weak the real estate market market has been in Cleveland that the city felt compelled to allow these low-rise bunkers that can't contribute to transit ridership to locate here because they're better than nothing. In a downtown setting, there's needs to be Flats East Bank-scale development at each station on the line, including the as-yet unbuilt Dock 20 station. I hope the areas you mention and generally the lakefront attracts lots of residential development. Do you think the WFL would take off then? If any of these residents work downtown, most likely many would walk to work, another appeal of living downtown. Besides a quick jump to the Flats, less of a quick jump to the airport, why would these residents use the WFL in its current configuration in numbers sufficient to support the WFL? Residential development is great; CLE needs employment growth ASAP though to really boost transit ridership. Daily commuters.

The WFL is great if you live in, for example, Shaker Square and work in E&Y Tower. Otherwise, the WFL is lacking core commuters/riders which are needed to sustain this line. People drive their cars because it's more convenient. The base WFL commuters is very limited even though one can access the WFL from the northern core of downtown, esp. North Pointe, City Hall, Federal Building. Where are all of those workers on the WFL? If they even use transit, let alone a rail line, they walk to Tower City for the Red Line. Again, key being ''if'' they use transit at all. The WFL was designed for bar-hopping in the 1990s with an expanded station for 8 Browns games a year.

Looks great.

It's a better location for NY Life which it will, hopefully, use as a springboard for creating new jobs downtown. Expansion of employment is what Cleveland needs both in the city and the region. Instead of licking your chops for a Cleveland job raid from another local community, you should concentrate on job expansion whether it's downtown, Valley View, Westlake, Strongsville or Medina and lick your chops if Cleveland poach jobs from, for example, North Carolina ie. PayPal. This building in Lakewood needs an overhaul anyway and residential is a perfect complement for it and downtown Lakewood. Hope the developer updates the exterior as well.

That's good news.

...with the Salvation Army and its new family services building going up in the background? You think that is a good use of increasingly valuable property? A bit contradictory with your downbeat take on the Wolstein Center. If anything, the Wolstein Center should be used more to attract crowds to that corner of downtown.

Wonder why no complaints about St Patrick's Day parties? Talk about stereotyping!

Wonder why no ''pre-construction'' sales for these condos.