CleveFan

Except that most of what we’re reacting to is more than just speculation - it’s based on the best reporting we have and multiple sources. As @KJPsaid, what he’s learned is either accurate or it’s misinformation- which is head scratching - why would SW go out of their way to misdirect as to their direction on design? And though many expressing dissatisfaction - at this juncture - may seem pointless - I actually think it matters - at least a little bit. SW can’t be completely deaf dumb and blind as to the court of public opinion. We’ve already learned that “pushback” may have raised the height of the tower by up to 10 stories. Like others, Ive been trying to make sense of this story and I think money may be the principle factor. SW gets the prestige of a PS location but they keep costs at the lower end of what they think provides an “acceptable” (perhaps I should use the word “competitive”) HQ Tower. What gives me reason to be hopeful regarding design , based on @KJPreporting, is that the main reason for a delayed timeline - is a need for more time in the design phase. Maybe options are still being evaluated. Do I think the Urban Ohio forum can influence SW’s design process? Perhaps not - but I’d be surprised if they are unaware of the general consensus of our community.

I’m with those disappointed as details are getting revealed. The timeline is frustrating but the apparent design vision for that location is the big disappointment. I get that SW gets to design whatever they want for their purposes. I just don’t get why they’d choose the heart of the city - the PS site - for an HQ that actually wants zero interaction with the general public. If security and a low key profile was desired - the public square location just doesn’t make sense. Economically and strategically - SW’s presence will be epic. But design-wise, It’s looking like this mega project will produce none of the following: “Big 3” height, increased street activity with the public or an iconic Cleveland building. Yep, disappointing.

Fantastic and exciting article - the usual thanks to @KJP. We don’t often get such a long view of development possibilities and a look into the possible future. It’s important to think generations ahead so that Cleveland does not get left behind as the decades pass into the 2nd half of the 21st Century. The transformation from industrial center to medical Mecca is underway and the cities importance not only as a connecting hub between northern and Midwestern cities - but as a worldwide destination for shipping - is not only exciting speculatively - but inherently vital in our planning. Our city will not prosper without cooperative investment in infrastructure that can facilitate the possibilities outlined in the article. in that spirit, I suggest that the next stadium must be domed or retractable - we must expand the usage of such a resource and create the possibility of a Super Bowl (and other mega events) occurring in this city. The economic dollars possible by the creation of a new lakefront neighborhood with a public promenade are too compelling not to pursue.

I hope these places are packed as soon as this summer (assuming post-vaccine normalcy). They deserve to be - just for their location - which will flaunt a Cleveland view to make land locked cities envious.

I wanted to vote for “all of the above” in the survey because of the multiple opportunities & ways to interact with the lakefront. Despite weather challenges typical from late October through early April - pathways for walking and biking make sense as they will still be frequently utilized. But having a beachfront area, a version of a Santa Monica pier or a hillside vista near the water - all sound fantastic. Other presented ideas such as an accessible island, better connections to residential and new spaces for water-based sporting activities - all good. The Pandemic did at least one positive thing - it brought a renewed emphasis on enjoying outdoor experiences- perhaps more than ever - particularly for those living in urban situations. Creatively maximizing the accessibility of such a great resource as the lakefront - in an accelerated time frame - should be a high priority for Cleveland. If not now, then how many more years must we wait?

Super cool to see the growing energy of this district - the new apartments should attract young (and older) professionals with their large floor plans and in- home office designs. Hopefully, the artists who have found less gentrified homes will remain as new urban dwellers arrive. Cross County Mortgage will infuse new jobs and buildings in this area and it’s another important neighborhood adjacent to the downtown core being revitalized. Seems like so many areas around Cleveland have positive developments happening now - there’s a palpable energy from downtown’s Renaissance's to neighborhoods from University Circle to midtown to Ohio City, to name but a few. So glad to see this development moving forward.

From what we’ve seen from our best source, @KJP, there’s close to zero chance of SW spending for a decorative crown or spire. So based strictly on the reporting - for me, the narrative of a somewhat disappointing design continues. It looks like the most bland office building design possible is definitely the exemplar for SW, with an at best, “non consequential” building directly on the square.( @KJP gives us a hope for a possibly interesting design there in his follow- up.) Instead of gaining more density with two 20 plus story buildings, we get one that does as much possible, given a mighty bulk of 1 million square feet, to not rise to 500 feet high. There are slightly lower floor heights as low as 14 feet. We hear nothing more of any hotel plans or mixed usage considerations. The good news and hope- also based on the reporting - is that it is too early to know what all this will really look like . “Planning is still very early in the process - things can and probably will change” are key inclusions from the article. So for those rooting for a more iconic and inspiring design - there’s still reason to hope. We’re still learning details. One would think SW is fully aware of the importance of their world HQ being based in Cleveland and the power of their image and brand as an attractor of young talent from around the country and even internationally. Despite that, it’s possible that they simply don’t care about aesthetics as much as The bottom line. Many of the key design decisions may be based on the latter. Let’s hope there are still important conversations going on that move the goalposts positively and creatively on the ultimate rendering of this design. To me, from an idealist’s perspective, this is a once in a century opportunity to do both - continue the SW story as a conservative, hugely successful business story while giving Cleveland a new, iconic building - “in league with the Big 3” -symbolic of its relevance and Renaissance in the 21st century. In terms of the latter, at the moment, I think my expectations are too high. But time will reveal.

Love that we’re losing our parking lot sea on the Jacobs lot and Superblock - but that rendering was way cool and harkens back to some of the fantasy vision of Forest City 30 plus years ago. To get even something of that vision on the riverfront would be epic. Having said that, don’t think that an SW campus would’ve activated much along the River and we’ve never seen anything residential proposed there before have we? I suppose the future courthouse property could be located there. But with growing interest in the development in Flats South, could Bedrock be a location for a new “Superblock” type mixed use property combining high rise residential, hotel and a new trophy office building? I don’t know what the cons of trying to build there are, but it it would offer a very unique riverfront setting near the towpath, dining and entertainment in the Flats and potentially stunning river, lake and city views.

Slight aside - but man, really love seeing The Lumen’s ultra modern presence in the background on those shots. What an addition in the Cleveland skyline.

Great to see a county wide vision is being developed - hard to believe that it’s just being developed recently. Themes of the plan, as published, are public engagement and interactivity with the lakefront. Included in the area is the stretch of lakefront we know as Burke Airport. I wonder how open county planning really is to an open discussion of the purposing of this area. If interactivity with the lake is truly a central goal, I’d love to hear the thinking of the county and of the city’s residents.

To me, 200 Public Square is a wide building when viewed straight on and in this massing , if accurate in dimension, the SW Tower may be even wider. It’s a bit of a harsh contrast to the elegant Terminal Tower. I wish the floor plates were more square shaped than rectangular given that bulk. Would love to see a terraced, tapered effect as it rises. That type of design could preclude difficult office space dimensions while creating a more interesting and sophisticated look. I love that, at latest rumor it’s gotten higher (maybe) - but its sheer bulk makes it appear a bit imposing. When you think of the highest buildings in most big city skylines, they usually have a more slender or tapered appearance.

Don’t know that you we would get all that much back for him. Add him into the mix with the more mature Baker after a full year with Stefanski and we could have an outrageous offense. I think he’s due for a great season.

Taking a moment to recover from the Browns game (great season) - checking the thread and seeing the Great American Tower mentioned. I don't know about anybody else, but I'd be quite fine with a building like this for SW - except that the crown feels a little...um, "feminine" (no offense to our lady forum members) for a gritty town like Cleveland. But It really shows how a spire can extend the perception and actual height of a building. I'd want a little more height in SW's actual building, too. Great American Tower's roofline (495 feet) is actually not as high as Erieview Tower - it's the ornate tiara that pushes it to 665'. I don't have any reason to think that a proudly conservative company would do it, but it'd be nice to get a tapered top or a spire of some kind to create a better simpatico with the Big 3. Considering the larger rectangular dimension of the current unofficial HQ base building, (especially with it's height clearly extending up into the skyline at 600' or so) I think the a strictly flat roof/top would have less synergy with the other tall towers around the square.

Having advanced to today's division playoff against the world champs - today was "house money" - so I wasn't completely disappointed. The team showed a lot of heart and grit this year. The culture's changed and we've got a coach and a powerhouse offense for next year. Having said all that, once Mahomes was knocked out of the game and the Browns had closed to within 5 with 8 minutes to play - you really sensed this was the moment to see Baker really come of age on the big stage - and engineer a drive to take the lead. As it turned out, once the Browns failed in that endeavor- the defense couldn't do enough to stop a backup QB from getting two critical first downs - including one on third and 15 where he ran! This was a game that was there for the taking in that 4th quarter and, in that sense, it was a disappointment. But, you have the sense that this team is "on the verge" and with some good moves to improve the defense, we could battle our way to an AFC championship game next year. And then, hopefully......onward and upward.

I gotta give props to Forum posters after a few days of pure passion and obvious love for the city. I’m one of the slightly crazed that spent a little too much time and energy on the SE HQ. But reading your posts - many great points - and some so funny (@Whipjacka’s rendering an all time classic) is great therapy. Trying to keep up with what we think we know (thanks @KJP) has been a bit of an emotional roller coaster! I’m very grateful SW made the decision to stay in Cleveland - obviously. I just wish that they would use this once in a century opportunity to further honor the city through a building design that’s not based on a nondescript office building from OKC that could’ve been located in any major city. I wish there was something that was a nod to the Big 3 and the heritage of the city. As for the glass - I take no issue with that and think Cleveland could use more of it . But without straying way outside the box, staying within the PC portfolio, and comparable dimensions , there’s room for creativity and something a bit more distinctive. The Milwaukee tower has been cited before and I include one from Denver, not my favorite - but still more unique - and 600’ high. Could something like 100 North Tampa (nearly 600 feet) be conservative enough in design despite being its distinctive “signature” for SW? Perhaps not. But like others, I’m hoping the number of curves we’ve been thrown lately indicates that SW is actually still weighing different options - and that they realize how symbolic and important their location is and tower will be to this city.

Thanks @freethinkI don’t have the skills to do it, but would love to see the latest version of the SW HQ ad per NEOtrans on Jan 15th - a roughly 600’ single glass box tower set back from the Jacobs lot with a 4 story “museum” building on PS. Thank you, to any of our skilled rendering artists that can do that!

@marty15's "invisibility" comment seems borne out by this shot of the BOK PARK PLAZA in context of the Devon Center. It has that same way of disappearing into the sky as our Hilton has. As for it being a bland box, do we feel better knowing it's an East Coast/New York style bland box? (designed by a company that can be as audacious as Kingdom Centre in Saudi Arabia). I haven't felt quite this way since the Browns unveiled the big change to their helmet and uniform a couple years ago. But, on the optimistic side, if @KJP's first NEOTRANS article on the 27 story version of the HQ caused some "pushback" by some important SW folk, it shows us that the design is still not finalized. Maybe @KJP can go for two for two when the underwhelming reaction from this article hits the fan. And I do think that something in the 500 foot range is going to look better on PS than something closer to the 400 range - so, for those like me that were concerned about the lack of verticality, this is a partial win. Hopefully, we still have a chance to get something with some more interesting dimensions - it doesn't sound that way - but a Northwestern Mutual (Milwaukee) inspired tower would be a significant improvement. I find it a little ironic that a company that is vital in the world of design would purposely design an uninspiring world head quarters. Conservative doesn't have to mean lacking in style. I don't look for a big change in their direction - but we've heard rumors before that weren't necessarily accurate - so, let's see what SW ultimately presents.

Thanks @urbanetics_for fantastic pics. This development and the neighborhood, in general, with its wonderful towpath, will be extremely desirable to exactly those young professionals that Cleveland must attract as it competes with other mid market cities, particularly in the Midwest- but also nationally. I have two cousins, ages 30 and 34- both, within the last 6 months, have decided to relocate back to the Cleveland area after living in San Antonio and Oklahoma - one having served in the military. The draw of family was a motivating factor but Cleveland offered many inducements - cost of living, culture, big league sports. Those attractions, which we all recognize, combined with new, interesting and unique urban neighborhoods in places like Tremont and Ohio City, can keep Cleveland a strong contender in the competition for these younger professionals. Exciting to see the leasing progress at this early stage, for Electric Gardens - those units look way cool with some absolutely stellar views.

Particularly Kevin Love's lack of durability over the last couple years has been so frustrating. He's the big $ man and was supposed to be face of the franchise. He was the firewall that was to keep the 2nd post-Lebron era from being a lottery trip every year. Durability is a key requirement for all-star players. If the team could ever get healthy, they could be really competitive,

My apology -post edited.

After the initial reaction and more reflection - some thoughts.....Not sure we know that we're getting "multiple" buildings "of this height". A read of the last NEOTrans article gives specifics on 2 office buildings which, in total, comprise the 1,000,000 square feet of the HQ - one maybe the height of the Stokes Courthouse and one the height of the E & Y Tower. That's based on a fairly generous floor height of 16 feet for each. We're pretty sure there are 2 garage structures, with one being up to 12 stories in height. A "training center" is referenced - but I didn't see any specifics on its dimensions - I would assume it would not approach the size of the second office tower. Apparently later, we might get a hotel -time will tell. From all we've been told there's no way that SW will incorporate the garages under either of the office tower buildings to produce height. Actually, it's clear they don't want that - they took care to create a design that intentionally deemphasizes the height of a huge headquarters. (That's why I don't think we'll see an ornate crown extending the building upwards.) One million square feet is a lot - by comparison the Key Tower - (still among the 50 biggest office buildings in the world -Yay Cleveland) has 1.5 million. So maybe I have to say that "density is important" and "I want walkability" since those points are repeated when dismissing the HQ's lack of height as an "either or argument" -the premise being: a tall tower precludes density and walkability. An urban campus creates it. But why not have both? SW could've kept a campus approach, designed a ground level that activates AND calibrated the project to retain a sizable second building and produce a more commanding base tower. Even the reassignment of 5 stories to the base tower would've created a better balance and synergy with the "Big 3". Imagine an Erieview Tower-height base building there - that's what just those extra 5 stories would achieve. That kind of design choice would've allowed for a more noticeable change in the skyline from all perspectives and it would've created a nicer symmetry around Public Square. (remember those renderings as viewed from Progressive Field?). Unfortunately Cleveland (60 structures) is much closer to the OKC skyline (48 structures) than Chicago (738 structures) and the addition of SW is not singlehandedly moving the meter much towards Chicago. But, of course, It's a wonderful addition on the western side of the square in the most noticeable and needy parcel downtown and it will greatly increase the energy and feeling of urbanity there - and for that I'm very excited. But, now, a few days after the "big reveal" of the general proportions of the project - I wish I could kind of swoop in and make at least that one change I described. A final question - does this less vertical HQ come with a lower price tag than even a modestly higher tower would've cost? Perhaps, at the end of the day, that's the bottom line. So, my major disappointment is that we're not going to get that Terminal Tower or 200 Public Square skyline impact - don't care what the naysayers say - that would've been uniquely satisfying and appropriate. But, sure, I celebrate the presence of SW - and their decisión to stay committed to Cleveland. I'm super excited to see actual renderings and before we know it, the excitement as this project begins to rise.

Based on what we really know (at this point) the Nashville building is the closest exemplar for the SW main HQ Tower. The number of stories, the architect and one might argue the preferred more conservative style and profile that SW clearly embraces. Based on a comparison of floor heights from @Geowizical’s chart, even if SW passes some of its peers in the PC portfolio, with 15’ floor heights, The main HQ tower barely exceeds 400 feet. That’s pretty hard to believe given the expectations I think many of us had. As for the Cleveland - Pittsburgh comparison - the biggest take away - imagine adding 6 more Erieview Tower- size (or slightly higher) buildings to downtown. OMG Really think that SW was the last likely chance to add one for another generation - but apparently it’s not to be.

I’m not sure an “urban campus” is going to increase “interaction with the ground level”. If the design specifically targets a mixed use approach, if it incorporates retail businesses on the ground floor of the garage structures and puts a hotel into the complex- than that’s one thing. The premise that “it’s not about height” on PS is surprising to me from a forum of urbanites - it’s just a matter of degree. You could have a Crocker Park off the square and have “a lot of interaction at street level”. It’s just not what happens in a big city. And let’s be honest - Seattle may be walkable - I’ve been there and it is - but to say it’s not known for tall buildings? 8 over 600 feet including a Key Tower- sized highest and 19 or 20, at the moment, over 500 and more coming. That’s one of the most impressive and iconic skylines on the continent.

The Indians haven't done much to excite the fan base lately - unless you're all jacked up about the idea of a new team name and mascot in another year. it's not easy having to accept that you can never keep a superstar in town. For a while, in the first few years of the Tito regime, I felt like we could really compete with the big markets. But now - we're headed towards one of the lowest payrolls in baseball. Wonder if the Lindor story could've been different had Covid not struck - which hurt smaller markets the most severely. For anybody out there following the Mets - you can expect big bucks to continue to be spent - new ownership there with very deep pockets. For Cleveland - our best hope is to emulate Tampa Bay- and somehow contend for a championship with a substantially lower payroll. But there are a lot of questions in that lineup now.

Thanks @Geowizicalfor the massing and @KJPfor your reporting work, as always. I know it's just a massing, but that first pic looks like someone accidentally cut the main tower in half, with the "piece" on the left looking like a mistake. Look, I get it - overall this is a fantastic win for the city. The jobs, the energy this injects - all definitely good! We still have to see a lot of detail in this project from floor heights to exactly what's going on at street level - how these massive garages are presented, etc. And I'm thrilled to lose the parking lot sea that we've had for decades - the city is going to look so much better on many levels. But a big part of what we talk about here on the Forum goes beyond that - it goes to artistry and how a building inspires us. Looking at this and understanding it's a "forever thing" - I just don't see that this just had to be on the Jacobs lot. I think if it was anywhere else in downtown, I'd be feeling different - and exuberant. But after the lofty expectations that have been predicted for this project at this site -- the impact of this world HQ is just not in the same league as its iconic neighbors on Public Square and in that sense, its pretty disappointing Look, I hope the details of the design prove me wrong. There's still a lot to be revealed.