CleveFan

.....and you had a chance to raise our hopes again...

I’d like to ask the great @Geowizical ( or one of our other talented artists) if we could have a massing of the latest SW HQ in the skyline - the one with a 25 and a 20 story building. Just so we can readjust our paradigms. Thank you 🙏🏻 if that can be done.

If the base building was built above a substantial parking pedastel, for those disappointed at the thought of two shorter buildings for the HQ, it still might mean at least something akin to Erieview Tower, just based on a 27 story office with floors of about 16-17 feet each. I strongly wanted something vertically in league with the Big 3 (and still hope that might happen ) but a 530 footer wouldn’t be too bad, particularly if the design was iconic. And, a second building of 20 expansive office floors above a parking pedastel could push towards the Courthouse height. I’m just hoping the world HQ looks the part.

Wish we could get “the later phase” first - as of the last “massing” we got - that looked more substantial and more exciting. I think the move to slightly larger studios, as opposed to micro apartments will work better for Cleveland, particularly in a world that’s now been rocked by a pandemic. That’s particularly if rental costs are kept reasonable. I also hope the eventual details show a slightly more edgy design mindset, perhaps more in the direction of City Club. I think the Flats wants to be playful.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, @KJPand knowledgeable forum folk -but the previous reports of a potentially Key Tower- esque height assumed the lion’s share of the HQ’s million square feet were contained in a main/base headquarters tower. The “second” building would contain “other” components and a significant parking base. (Do I have that right?) But when you “split” the 1,000,000 square feet HQ into two pretty similarly sized buildings - depending on floor plate size - it yields two 20-something story buildings. As a reference, The E&Y tower is just short of 500,000 square feet. Imagine two buildings in that general ballpark as your HQ. You’re still left with property for future expansion. You’re back to the “campus” approach which SW may have preferred all along - I just don’t think it’s “fine” for a PS address. As far as how it acts at street level - a taller base tower doesn’t automatically preclude better street interaction - it depends on the execution of the design. If the mid rise campus HQ was the plan all along, I would’ve thought the Bedrock location was perfect.

First off , an apology for my lack of brevity in this post. To @inlovewithCLE’s point - I think it’s deeper than that. I’ve seen @KJP caution forum members on multiple occasions- “don’t get emotionally involved” in these projects” and I agree - I get it. . And I realize that, at the end of the day, there are more fundamental serious issues to occupy our energy - such as Cleveland’s status as one of the most impoverished and violent cities in the country. And maybe- hopefully- this latest rumor is a red herring as others have opined. But, why wouldn’t it be “all good” for me if the 25 story HQ rumor proves true? It’s because I see (and I think many see) more than just 3 tall towers on the other 3 sides of a revived Public Square. I see a city’s history, spirit and aspiration there. The 52 story Terminal Tower, tallest building in the world outside New York upon its completion, represented Cleveland as “the sixth city” - challenging its citizenry to meet the promise of a still young and wildly ambitious century. The Terminal Tower helped Cleveland to officially make its claim as one of the great American cities of its time. Roughly 50 years later, though the city’s reputation had been tarnished, a surprising new period of construction gave rise to a tower that could surpass the Terminal Tower - although some insisted the BP Building remain shorter than the Terminal Tower - it still represented a city that intended to rise up - a city with lots of fight. And when the 90’s commenced with the city’s new tallest - and the tallest between NY and Chicago - optimism and a sense of a Renaissance was in the air. But the last 30 years have taken their toll and despite downtowns growth, the population of “sixth city” has dropped out of the top 50. Point being -For me, the remaining side of the square must be as aspirational, perhaps even as “audacious” as the other big 3 were in their time in order to symbolize that Cleveland refuses status as a secondary market. I want to once again see a skyscraper of a big league city rising high, competing with the heights of past greatness for the nation to notice - in a new Roaring 20’s and for generations to come. I’ll be “ok” with the rest of the projects that I’m around to see that fall short of their grandest expectations - whether it’s a “Nucleus” or whatever -down the road. But not with this project. This ones at the heart of our city - at our most prestigious location. Yeah, it would still be “nice” to have a couple significant buildings in the 20 to 25 story range where parking lots existed for many years. But for me, an SW HQ that doesn’t approach the standards set by the Terminal Tower, 200 Public Square and Key Tower will be - in my heart of hearts - a disappointment. That’s just my opinion - and It may not be shared by the majority - but I bet it’s one that a lot of true Cleveland fans will understand.

For boasting purposes not to mention visual impact , I’m hoping -and I think it’s very probable -that the “base building” will exceed 665’ - besting Cincinnati ‘s vaunted Great American Tower. If that happens, Cleveland will once again have the 3 tallest buildings in the state and 4 of the top 5.

The old Spinal Tap review of their album “Shark Sandwich” would’ve been perfect “It’s just two words - sh** sandwich”.

Now there’s the mini bomb! That’s another NEOtrans article in one sentence! - If that happens and SW does build two towers concurrently - this will be like Cleveland’s version of Hudson Yards! Merry Christmas indeed fellow Forumers!

That’s Truth @urbanetics_ There has been no more single critical “win” for Cleveland since ... well, pick your analogy- how about since the procurement of the Rock N Roll Hall of Fame or how about the construction of Key Tower? For a city still battling some very fundamental problems, but with a new generation of energetic and hopeful residents, Sherwin-Williams “decision” will be hugely impactful for decades to come. And whether it’s one tower or two - it’s going to be a great look and symbol for the fight in this hard working comeback city. I can hardly wait to see this project rise.

That ones much better. FWIW, I received a very nice note back from Vishan Chakrabarti after sending him a note on Linked In as per @ASP1984’s suggestion. I found that very professional, particularly after a fairly blunt criticism of the design. And though I am just one random opinion - interestingly, he included in his note, “there a lot of complicated issues”. Perhaps if the concerns expressed on the forum are shared by others in sufficienct number and influence, who knows?- there might be further review of the expansion design.

And yet from most on this great forum ...to quote a rock classic: “The Sound of Silence”

Great idea. I just did with a dash of irreverence and respect. Though perhaps it’s the RRHF board of directors that we should write to. And, just a thought - would there have ever been a more appropriate situation to bring the public into the design selection than this? Imagine the buzz and talk and new energy about the hall that would’ve been garnered.

I’m not a fan, at first “glance” of the triangle design. I get the premise that rock n roll is irreverent and rebellious, obviously -but rock n roll has always drawn upon its own fundamentals as it’s evolved through the decades - so their design rationale isn’t doing it for me. But without getting into the weeds on a musical conversation (I hold a music degree ) I’ll just say that I agree with those who don’t like seeing the original, iconic hall partially “blocked”. I feel a little like the late great “Terdolph” saying that - but in this case, he would’ve been right! Seeing the much more dramatic Coop design proposal makes this even more of a disappointment- especially given a formidable $100 million price tag. Finally, I guess the new addition will allow for more of a performance space (although the night rendering appears to be on the front plaza - but without question, the one major inclusion that the Hall literally screams for is a dynamic concert venue. Perhaps there are competitors in the area - won’t throw out a name - I’m sure y’all know the players - that might not want the competition - but with such a venue - the RRHF could truly be a more dynamic living museum. Given the habits of a Gen Z generation with a shorter than ever attention span - sometimes the current hall seems a bit “20th Century” I envision it more “alive” - a world-class space for concerts and non-music events offering stunning vistas of the city skyline and coastline. As for the expansion’s color selection- as “Spinal Tap” once observed - “it’s a fine line between stupid and clever” - If you catch my drift. Of course, I’m very happy for the expansion - but, unless you’re viewing this apparently final design from the air - it’s no great shakes (rattle and roll -sorry 😛) Once I get a look inside, maybe I’ll be more impressed. #Dontblocktherock.

And Especially with that stellar lighting still one of the most iconic buildings in the country.

First off, I’m a fairly liberal person and I consider myself sensitive to those in this country that have been dealt and/or still are getting a bad deal - and Native Americans are atop that list IMHO - but how many people were actually offended by the name Cleveland Indians? That term was clearly never intended as some form of insult - the history of indigenous people in Ohio is obviously honored by the naming of many of our towns and counties. If it’s about cultural appropriation (hot term du hour) then say goodbye to The Chiefs and the Braves. Then, the Cowboys and Rangers for their histories and associations. Having said that, and assuming there will be very little objection to the name change - onto the new mascots. A big no vote on “Spiders” Why? - just ask your wives or girlfriends - it is a creature loathed by many and not in a admiring way - Spiders are not quite the “ Cockroaches” or “Mice” of the world but they are often despised. I think we can be more aspirational. Guardians probably has a “Gen Z”appeal because of the huge movie franchise and it’s no big deal if it’s not a perfectly Cleveland reference. (Although given Superman’s connection it wouldn’t be a gigantic leap) Finally, I’m not quite getting why the negative opinions on a “rock n roll” reference given the city’s history and most iconic attraction - I’d take Rockers over insects anytime.

Not feeling bad tonight because the team fought hard and put on a great show - but 3 things- One: our somewhat overlooked defensive problems were exposed again tonight Two: we need a field goal kicker Three: The last play should put an end to those schoolyard lateral antics for once and for all

Agree with @Boomerang_Brian one successful small step towards regionalism would be a great step towards a larger regionalism process. The continued tradition of ignoring struggling communities such as East Cleveland threatens Cleveland itself - we are only as strong as our weakest link. Rather than avoiding our troubled communities we should be trying to figure out how to strengthen them through economic incentives for home owners and businesses and systemic efforts to reward educators and successful students/families. Cleveland’s daytime core population is at its highest ever and the downtown is growing -a model of urban revitalization - but we ignore our problems in the region at risk to everyone. A Regionalism master plan could be the catalyst to start addressing problems that are generations old and that won’t ever go away just because we don’t want to take them on.

This is a commission for an urban city, right? Maybe they need to take a field trip to New York City for some perspective. Just sayin

True - but. In a crazy way, 2040 is not that far away. How far out in advance does the NFL plan super bowl sites? @YABO713seems to be breaking some real insider news and it seems the retractable roof and lower bowl expansion would be added to the existing stadium. I wonder how much those costs would be compared to a new stadium build. There’s probably someone on the forum that might have a good idea of that.

Time for Nucleus 4.0? (I never warmed up to that Borg- like design anyway). I think we’ll be very fortunate to see the 3.0 version - Stark still has a battle ahead - but beyond Nucleus I’m just hoping Cleveland is the big state-wide winner. Great news today as broken in @KJP’s story.

Maybe if we knew what "was" or "is" going on it wouldn't be so exasperating. Then again, it might further exasperation. As far as I know, there has been no significant media attention of any kind to shed light - please, correct me if I'm misinformed on that. My thoughts - 1) Stark et. al. aren't paying off the right politicians. (kidding). 2) it may be time for the first ever Urban Ohio petition! (And folks, watch out for those holiday decorations - up top - it's easy to break a bulb.)

By the way, from that vantage point at Pier W, would Nucleus be located in the gap between The 9 and The Terminal Tower? (I believe that it would be just about 35 shorter than The 9...)

I can’t think of a better recession-proof district than one based on good beer!