CleveFan

So if Stark won that $35 million tax credit would Nucleus suddenly be on the fast track to construction? Or does implementation just refer to the designation of the funds?

Wow, I guess this falls into the "Be Careful What You Wish For" department. I was previously unaware of the plight of Inner Harbor. I remember visiting Harbor Place a couple of times in the early/mid 2000's and thinking it was still extremely popular and a great model for the CLE lakefront. But a lot has happened in the last 15 years. Shopping malls in general have declined, particularly in certain areas that are perceived to be less desirable. Maybe some of the publicized large scale disruptions and violence have discouraged part of the population from going, particularly with the increasing ease of buying and returning items from Amazon and other on-line retailers. And yet, certain retail centers (think Crocker Park) are thriving. I think Mwd711's point about sustainability for whatever develops on Cleveland's lakefront is excellent. Imagine the sad scenario of an Inner-Harbor type mall on our lakefront with the foot traffic of the current Tower City. Thinking about what will work 50 years from now, not just in the coming decade, has to be part of the planning for lakefront development, particularly near downtown. As the city core's current residential population continues to grow, the lakefront can be an increasingly attractive incentive - but how can we turn it from a story of previous neglect and underdevelopment to one that beckons our youngest and future generations of the 21st century?

Thanks KJP for detailing number of stories versus floorplate size in a possible new Courthouse Tower. I would wager there will be some excited forum members after they see your post just above. The current Justice Center reaches 420 feet high, good enough for 8th tallest building in Cleveland at present. But it has only 26 stories meaning an average of about 16 feet per floor. At that average, even the 30 floor/ 29,000 sf floorplate version would reach 480 feet and rank as 5th tallest in the city (assuming that SHW's new HQ doesn't exceed that mark.) So for fun, consider a Courthouse Tower in the 20,000 sf version at 877,000 sf - with a 16 feet per floor average. That would become the city's 3rd tallest tower at 704 feet. And a possible future tower that incorporated appellate and probate courts, at 54 stories - it would tower to 864 feet. Obviously, if judges' preferences led to more courtrooms per floor we'd get one of the shorter versions, but still skyline changing - unless some form of campus model leads to two shorter towers. I was curious and googled but couldn't find the floor plate size of the Carl Stokes Courthouse Tower. It looks to have a larger floorplate size - making me think the "more courtrooms per floor" model is preferred. The Stokes Tower, by the way, is the 4th tallest Courthouse tower in the country at 430 feet but only 23 stories - an average of almost 19 feet per floor. If that's the standard for the future Justice Center - my calculations are actually too short across the board. Finally, if the current Justice Center is too expensive to be converted to residential - would it ultimately be destroyed? As I looked at a new, rather stunning sunrise pic of the city on "Wikipedia", I tried to imagine the unloved tallest tower built in the 70's out of the skyline - It would create quite a void.

According to KJP’s article from this afternoon, a new downtown Courthouse Tower could certainly be 35 stories - and that’s the shortest of three scenarios he mentioned. Given the height per floor of the current Courthouse Tower, if my math is right, we would be looking at the new 4th tallest building downtown, at about 560 feet high. (Erieview Tower is 529’).

Thanks as always KJP, especially for the news that downtown is the preferred location for the R & D - and the comments in the last paragraph it did take me a few minutes to adjust to the new size of the massing even though I knew that was coming!

When I look at some of the very tall new (and Supertall) residential buildings popping up in NY and Chicago, it makes me wonder, “Could Cleveland support one true skyscraping residential tower?” (Meaning more than 500’ high) With the recent success of many conversions and the impressive success of One University Circle, the Beacon and, I’m certain, The Lumen, I think a new true skyline- changing residential tower is more possible than ever before. ( And I mean that, in addition to a possible Lumen 2). The renderings shared by “Whatup” last year, depicting an addition atop Erieview are supercool. It would provide a game changing status to the sometimes under appreciated tower. I have no idea how prohibitive such construction costs would be and if they would be deal-breaking. But it’s great just to see the renderings for residential conversion of the current upper floors. It’s a sleek, polished look and those views will obviously be sensational. With the kind of roll Cleveland has been on, I’d actually be surprised if that conversion doesn’t happen.

It seems like the city’s only move, based on SW’s apparent lack of interest in Cleveland sites, as suggested by KJP’s article, would be a full clean-up of the Scranton Peninsula sight. But I assume that endeavor would be expensive, complicated and time consuming . It could easily create uncertainty over time that the site would actually be sufficiently prepared for SW on a definitive timetable. With questions pending, and no word at all on interest in an all-in-One Weston site or any downtown alternative, it’s hard to imagine that SW has not already selected Brecksville for their R&D facility- particularly if we are in fact, only a week or so away from the official announcement of what’s to come. I can understand SW perceiving Brecksville as a very attractive, desirable location for a world class R & D campus. It apparently works from a financial perspective while eliminating unwanted unknowns that would be likely with Scranton. As a Cleveland supporter, in a perfect world, I would of hoped for a more uncompromising commitment to the home city by SW. The relocation of 1/6th of the corporation’s jobs to a suburban home (albeit one so close to the city)Will leave a bittersweet taste following a celebration of the new world HQ on Public Square.

We can have a friendly conversation about the design of the City Club Apartments - I happen to like it and think it’s a breath of fresh air for Cleveland. But aside from its design, I bet we can agree that one of the most underserved demographics downtown are those youngest apartment dwellers -just-out-of-School (or not in school), trying to get established and wanting to be in the city -not in their parents’ suburbs. They don’t need much of their own space to hang out in because they’ll be going out Living the life a lot - And they also have a little more money to spend than I did at that point. And if their new building has cool amenities, like a rooftop pool, first class doggy daycare and a funky modern vibe in a real neighborhood where they can get a nice studio or “nano” apartment - that’s gonna be a very successful formula. . The Channel 19 video did a good job of illustrating those points and how the City Club Apartments will be marketing themselves. The presence of this demographic downtown is going to have a very positive domino effect for many businesses and the general pedestrian energy at street level. This is a different group than their neighbors in the Beacon or in the Lumen, but a very important piece in continuing the narrative of Cleveland as an increasingly dynamic city. It’s an excellent strategy by the City Club Apartments and Im hoping that this project becomes a hot destination for those youngest urban professionals of every stripe. .

The news from KJP this morning is a major disappointment. Does it mean that Scranton Peninsula site could be a dead zone for decades instead of a dynamic new neighborhood? It does seem strange that after all the due diligence by SHW, we get this last minute curveball on "soil". Unless this is a negotiating strategy over money. If the preferred R & D site is truly out - I would hope that SHW would locate all its facilities on the sufficiently large Weston property. It would mean a bulkier, possibly higher presence on the west side of the square. I agree with other posters that the city should do whatever possible to keep the whole enchilada downtown. And Sherwin Williams commitment to Cleveland will be much more impressive if they don't move 1/6th of the jobs out to the burbs.

Love it! This will be very impactful on the Euclid Corridor . It actually reminds me of an apartment building you’d see in Vancouver (where there are many more like it). So much to like here -the “playful” nature of the street level, the balconies, the funky top, big windows and the color scheme. It will have a bright, airy feel while adding significant density and modernity to the block. With the new Lumen and Beacon towers In the mix, there’s a much younger and energetic feel to this increasingly dynamic Avenue. . Another great addition downtown!

NEOtrans time....

The split between Dorsey and the Browns suggests that Hazlam will be dangling the carrot of more autonomy to a new incoming coach. It can’t be the promise of beautiful weather or a pedigree of football greatness that will attract a new head coach to CLE. So what then? Either new opportunity or the allure of more control. But the Browns don’t have time for another rookie coach to “learn the job” and develop into it over several seasons. They do have talent in many key positions which needs good coaching, discipline and a positive professional culture. For those reasons, I agree the Browns must get a proven NFL coach with winning experience (or a perennial champion college head coach, like an Urban Meyer) . The NFL is a copycat league and the recent trendy head coaching picks have been young former offensive coordinators. . But the Browns need “sure-fire” leadership and know-how - not another rookie head coach who needs time for growing pains. . But who is left “out there” that fills the description and will commit to Cleveland? Does a championship-less Jason Garrett qualify? He had an 83-66 record with the Cowboys. And It’s easy to imagine Jerry Jones recommending him to his good friend Jimmy. Whoever it is, a once proud franchise and exceptional fan base deserve the real deal this time around.

Great shot. The Lumen is spreading that skyline! Love its color and the modernizing effect- also, love the Ohio Bell Building in that perspective as well!

Perhaps we here on UO can prove that Republicans and Democrats can disagree and still get along! ?

My issue with this project is not in bemoaning the possible lost retail and foot traffic to the downtown storefronts - that’s an apples/oranges argument - this kind of “outlet” mall shopping is “what it is” - it wouldn’t somehow fit into store fronts in any downtown. (Tower City is a moot point in this conversation so no point in mentioning that. ) My disappointment is in knowing that if this project had been “connected” to the Rock Hall via Burke lakefront land availability , it could have been that tourist draw that transformed foot traffic around the museums and any future development near the current stadium, benefitting everyone involved exponentially Instead, I see it as a disconnected destination, albeit tantalizingly close to the CBD. At the end of the day, will it be a positive for the city? It’s hard to say anything but “yes” to such a large scale, revenue-and-jobs producing entity. But it’s also a case of “so near, yet so far”.....

Makes complete sense - imagine having a significant percentage of residents trying to move in within the same week or so ..they also did this at The Beacon.

Just caught Eastvillagedon’s post citing Worth Magazine’s homage to Frank Jackson and his role in the Renaissance of Cleveland, particularly with respect to Jackson’s attention to the “regular” people and neighborhoods of the city. I’m not a fan, but it was nice to see such a positive take on the city and apparently, there will be more articles on the Cleveland Comeback upcoming. Wasn’t sure where to post this, and it may be old news to readers of Crain’s- but shout out to Cleveland for its big jump up in the “New American Economy” index of the nation’s 100 largest cities that are most welcoming to immigrants. Somehow, Cleveland moved from 64 to 14 in one year based on a metric including government leadership, livability, inclusivity, economic empowerment, and legal support. The unfortunate low mark in Cleveland’s rating was available job opportunities. As the Crain’s Op-Ed read, Cleveland....should see attracting immigrants as a path to building a more dynamic economy. The city rose to become the 6th largest in America in the early part of the 20th century based on opportunities for immigrants - what will be the opportunities that might attract a new generation of Clevelanders?

The dumb decision making of Freddie Kitchens continues. The Browns have a lot of talent this year - but it’s not being fully facilitated. Time and again, we’ve seen the head shaking playcall decisions, the lack of discipline, excessive penalties, etc. Based on 12 regular season games and his body of work, it’s safe to conclude that Mr Kitchens was not ready for a head coaching job in the NFL. Those that were expecting an 8 game winning streak on the Browns part were reminded once again yesterday, by a weaker and better coached Steeler team, just how improbable that was. Now, a 4 game winning streak to keep gasping playoff hopes alive will probably not be enough. But we can watch to see how the team progresses in December. Then, John Darcy’s decision will have to be - “Do I trust the future Super Bowl hopes of this franchise in the hands of Freddie Kitchens?

Great website, great interactive forum. I can easily say it’s my favorite Internet diversión! I know we veer off topic a bit much but even some of the right and left turns and side squabbles are interesting (at times) and KJP’s reporting work was Pulitzer- worthy this year. X and Mayday seem to know how to run a classy operation, shutting down things when we’ve lost our focus - so, thanks to the contributors and the insiders the picture takers, the meeting attendees the sources and the sleuths around town doing most of the heavy lifting - it’s great for Clevelanders at home and across country.

And I had the opportunity to see it in person tonight being in town for Thanksgiving and catching a Cavs game at the Fieldhouse ( which looks awesome, by the way). I was impressed with what a very big difference the Lumen makes on the skyline as you come up I-77 and then make your way into downtown approaching the RMFH. With its grid of construction lights it had a very cool ”big- city” vibe in the rainy night skyline. As Artmaster said, it does s good job of extending the downtown sight line eastward and kind of bringing the Rhodes Tower into one’s perspective of downtown. Thankful for PHS’s great contributions to the city!

From a construction/development perspective, I think most of us would be ok with the kind of decade that produced the world’s 2nd tallest building at the time, not to mention the Ohio Bell Building, Public Hall and one of the main buildings of the Cleveland Public Library.

And barring some unforeseen national/international catastrophe, there’s every reason to believe it will be the Roaring 20’s in development in Cleveland this next decade.

I was thinking the same thing. The new Hilton also looks good in there. I nominate this shot for one of the pics of the year on UO Northeast Ohio - and there have been a lot of great ones! Thanks to the forum members in town who take or share these great perspectives for all us Clevelanders -near and far.

Imagine - SHW is not the big project! KJP, can you at least give us a percentage of how likely it is that this mystery project materializes?

Nice buildings that illustrate how two buildings of the same floor count can be quite different in height. The Hess Tower is 490’ and the Pinnacle is 417- quite a difference even in how that would compare in the Cleveland skyline. I went back through this thread to the beginning, around 2007 when it was not yet specifically a SHW discussion - just to get some perspective. Many of the conversations back then sound exactly like those of today - the desire for a “4th tall tower”, arguments about height vs. density and complaints about the empty Weston lots. I’d like an iconic tower as much as anyone but the look back reminded me that it’s probably a good idea not to assume anything at all until the deal is really done and renderings are revealed. The difference from 2008 is that this time we have a dynamic Fortune 500 company in play, bringing a “tall” human presence. I’m not going to complain if there’s no significant tower - I think this time the Jacob/Weston lots get built up with a world class presence and it’s all good.