Evergrey

I agree... most of our neglected urban areas have been seeing a resurgence in the real estate market... amongst residential, commercial, industrial, retail and investment properties. While this good for a city, it doesn't necessarily correlate to population gains.

ok... but I wouldn't characterize losing almost 200,000 people over a 50 year period as "stable"... seems a bit misleading... in addition... the 2005 figure is an estimate while the rest of the figures are from decennial census... also ... I know nobody in the Cincinnati Boosters Association will agree with me... but the revised population estimate is most likely not a reflection of population growth in Cincinnati... but a result from undercounting over an extended period of time... the decline trends are probably similar... just with slightly larger population numbers I'm happy that Cincy challenged the numbers and "gained" population... and I wish other cities would follow suit... but it is highly unlikely Cincy has been able to reverse the powerful inertia of population decline over the past 50 years so suddenly... a rate of population decline that accelerated from 90-00 compared to 80-90

btw, now that i looked up the numbers... so you aren't confused, unusualfire... I speculate Cincy in reality probably looked something like this over the years... urban areas are notoriously undercounted 1980: 415k 1990: 395k 2000: 360k 2005: 330k This is not scientific... so please refrain from nitpicking over numbers... I'm just stating that I speculate Cincy most likely did not see a period of growth in the past couple decades... and that population has been undercounted for awhile... this may, however, have impacts on rate of net migration and other factors

How do you consider this stable?

i prefaced those numbers by stating they were made up numbers... read before commenting lol

probably not... the recount occured in 2006, right? I speculate the adjusted numbers probably wouldn't have affected the migration rate significantly as those 33k have probably been undercounted for quite some time... aka... Cincy most likely did not "gain population"... but has been a declining city with a population that was slightly larger than was counted for a period of time I'm not certain of this... but it's my speculation based on historic trends... it would be very unlikely that Cincy, a city with a high rate of population decline in recent decades, would suddenly reverse that trend. These are just made up numbers and years... but if say... Cincy was the following: 1980: 500k 1990: 400k 2000: 300k I speculate that Cincy in reality looked something like this: 1980: 530k 1990: 430k 2000: 330k

Well how in the heck is this possible...population shows about a 22,000 person gain for the county, while the net migration is about a 35,000 person loss. Was this a typo or did birthrates massively increase within the county over a 5 year span?? Not a typo. It's not uncommon for a major core county to experience net migration loss. A net migration rate of -3.3% is actually pretty good for a county in Franklin's tier. I imagine Franklin has a relatively young age demographic with many people in the child-bearing age compared to elderly people who are more likely to die.

The raw population figures are from the Census Bureau. The migration numbers are from analysis of IRS data by the Charlotte Observer (IRS filings are the best way to track yearly migration trends) I computed the "Net Migration Rate" by dividing the Net Migration by the 2000 Population. http://enterprise.star-telegram.com/ARCIms/Maps/clt/2007/irsmig.asp?state=OH

Years 2000-2005... includes both domestic and international... Cuyahoga County 2000 Population: 1,393,978 2005 Population Est.: 1,335,317 In: 145,639 Out: 211,337 Net: -65,698 Net Migration Rate: -4.7% Franklin County 2000 Population: 1,068,978 2005 Population Est.: 1,090,771 In: 221,626 Out: 256,457 Net: -34,831 Net Migration Rate: -3.3% Hamilton County 2000 Population: 845,303 2005 Population Est.: 806,652 In: 123,437 Out: 174,571 Net: -51,134 Net Migration Rate: -6.0% Montgomery County 2000 Population: 559,062 2005 Population Est.: 547,435 In: 98,005 Out: 116,216 Net: -18,211 Net Migration Rate: -3.3% Summit County 2000 Population: 542,899 2005 Population Est.: 546,604 In: 91,041 Out: 97,548 Net: -6,507 Net Migration Rate: -1.2% Lucas County 2000 Population: 455,054 2005 Population Est.: 448,229 In: 63,131 Out: 78,400 Net: -15,269 Net Migration Rate: -3.4%

What factors led to Toledo becoming the Mexican cultural and economic hub of Ohio?

You're right. Columbus' EA includes Mason County, WV (pop. 25k). I didn't notice that.

Per Capita Personal Income Average Growth 1994-2004: Cincinnati 4.2% National 4.1% Columbus 4.0% Dayton 3.6% Cleveland 3.4% Toledo 3.3% 2004 Increase over 2003 National 5.0% Cincinnati 4.9% Cleveland 4.2% Columbus 4.0% Dayton 3.1% Toledo 2.5%

New York might have a large population of the literate elite... but perhaps Toledo beats NYC in "per capita literacy".

Ok, I can't dispute your assertion that you may have "heard" that Cleveland is a "Top 10 Metro" somewhere. But I can say with certainty based on factual evidence and hard numbers that Cleveland is not a "Top 10 Metro" no matter how you slice it.

You're going around in circles and you don't even know what you're argueing about anymore. You claimed that Cleveland is a Top 10 Metro based on a population figure of 4.6 million derived from its Economic Area. This 4.6 million figure is roughly the same the entirity of Northeast Ohio. Cleveland's Economic Area is roughly the same territory as the population of the entirity of Northeast Ohio. Therefore, you did indeed claim that Metro Cleveland equals Northeast Ohio, even if you did not say so explicity. Bottom Line: Cleveland is NOT a Top 10 metro no matter what numbers you use.

"What you heard" is an inferior source of information compared to the hard numbers I've cited based on Census and Bureau of Economic Analysis statistics. BTW, I just noticed the Wikipedia entry for "Greater Cleveland" claimed that "Greater Cleveland" has between 4 and 5 million people and is amongst the Top 10 Metros... which is an erroneous and misleading use of numbers. They are defining "Greater Cleveland" as being roughly coincident with "Northeast Ohio"... it's fine if you want to define it that way... and there is certainly a population between 4 and 5 million in Northeast Ohio... but Northeast Ohio does not equal the "Cleveland Metro" and the "Cleveland Metro" does not come close to having 4 to 5 million people and does no come close to being a Top 10 Metro whether you are using MSA or CSA numbers. I edited that line from the Wikipedia entry due to its erroneous claim. If you want to compare Economic Areas, Cleveland is not in the Top 10. If you want to compare Media Markets, Cleveland is not in the Top 10. If you want to compare Metropolitan Areas, Cleveland is not in the Top 10. I'm not coming down on Cleveland... it's just the facts!

Cleveland's EA ranks 14th amongst the 179 EAs. You can only rank it against the EA of Detroit or the EA of Seattle... not the MSA or CSA of Detroit or Seattle, for example.....it just doesn't make sense to say "if Cleveland's EA was its metro... it would rank 12th amongst US metros" That's like saying that if I was a woman... at 6'1" I would be a very tall woman. But alas... I'm just an above average height man. Comparing two fundamentally different units just doesn't mean anything. Other Cleveland rankings: EA (14) MSA (23) CSA (14) Urbanized Area (21) Designated Market Area (16)

but that's comparing apples and oranges... Cleveland's Economic Area is not it's CSA let alone its MSA. Cleveland EA consists of: Cleveland MSA Akron MSA Youngstown-Warren MSA Canton MSA Sharon MSA Mansfield MSA plus some non-metropolitan counties throughout NE Ohio... like Tuscarawas and Wayne. That's where you get that 4.6 million population figure from.... well beyond the scope of a mere "metro".

uhhh..... lol ... there is no possible numbers manipulation you could do that would create some sort of Cleveland Top 10 fantasy metro/market/urban agglomeration... i have a feeling this thread is going to "jump the shark"

This is not metro. This is Economic Area, which consists of a number of metropolitan and non-metropolitan areas that are economically related to central economic nodes. There are 179 defined Economic Areas, compared to the 350+ Metro Areas. Cleveland Economic Area ranks: 14th in Population 15th in Total Personal Income 46th in Per Capita Personal Income Annual Average Growth Rates (1994-2004): Total Personal Income: Cleveland 3.5% National 5.2% Per Capita Personal Income: Cleveland 3.4% National 4.1%

That number is pretty similar to what is defined as "Northeast Ohio" on this very website. The boundaries of Cleveland's "Economic Area" almost exactly conform to Northeast Ohio... including Youngstown-Warren, Canton-Massillon, Mansfield, Sandusky, Wooster, Ashtabula, etc... PLUS Mercer Co, PA (which I suspect is more closely aligned economically to the Pittsburgh EA but gets lumped in the Cleveland EA due to it being part of the Youngstown CSA).

:clap:

Maybe they're seperate because Cleveland and Akron and Canton are one market (i.e. Canton and Akron have Cleveland's newscasts and channels , whereas Cincinnati and Dayton are two seperate markets. Interestingly, Cleveland's EA also includes the Youngstown-Warren-Sharon, OH-PA CSA. And the Mansfield MSA.

I felt like being dorky today. from the Bureau of Economic Analysis (2004 numbers, most recent) https://www.bea.gov 1. Cleveland-Akron-Elyria: $145,241,886 Population: 4,685,582 Per Capita Personal Income: 94% of national average Note: includes portions of PA 2. Columbus-Marion-Chillicothe: $77,932,447 Population: 2,547,005 Per Capita Personal Income: 93% of national average 3. Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington: $75,460,073 Population: 2,263,564 Per Capita Personal Income: 101% of national average Note: includes portions of IN and KY 4. Dayton-Springfield-Greenville: $41,727,332 Population: 1,386,663 Per Capita Personal Income: 91% of national average 5. Toledo-Fremont: $29,660,971 Population: 1,000,564 Per Capita Personal Income: 90% of national average Note: Portions of Ohio are included in the Pittsburgh-New Castle, PA EA and the Charleston-Huntingdon, WV EA. Interactive Map: https://www.bea.gov/regional/bearfacts/countybf.cfm?sublist=next&areatype=econ Definition of Economic Area: "BEA's economic areas define the relevant regional markets surrounding metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas. They consist of one or more economic nodes - metropolitan or micropolitan statistical areas that serve as regional centers of economic activity - and the surrounding counties that are economically related to the nodes." Definition of Total Personal Income: "Personal income Personal Income is the income that is received by all persons from all sources. It is calculated as the sum of wage and salary disbursements, supplements to wages and salaries, proprietors' income with inventory valuation and capital consumption adjustments, rental income of persons with capital consumption adjustment, personal dividend income, personal interest income, and personal current transfer receipts, less contributions for government social insurance. The personal income of an area is the income that is received by, or on behalf of, all the individuals who live in the area; therefore, the estimates of personal income are presented by the place of residence of the income recipients. All state and local area dollar estimates are in current dollars (not adjusted for inflation)."

damn... that sucks for Mad Mex... hopefully justice will be served