justsomethoughts

^ I truly applaud the transit advocacy, certainly riders and RTA need a voice. But now I see we are complaining about closing off Ontario, too! Sorry, but I'm not too sympathetic to that. Walking an extra block is not that rough. Everyone can use a little exercise. RTA is not a door to door service. Never has been. Never should be. It is not limo service. It is not Uber. Inherent in public transportation is that a rider will actually have to walk a little even 1-2 blocks. And for some riders the move of the bus stations, may actually shorten their walk, not increase it. What if a rider's destination is actually closer to the new stops? Because for many riders the new stops are actually closer to their destinations. Are the advocates upset at this fact too? Because this is a reality and fact as well. As far as compensating RTA...I did not know that the RTA owned the roadways and thus if they are changed for the overall benefit of the city and it's visitors, RTA should be compensated. That being said, RTA and PS should consider a "Friends of the Park" membership to raise money. Of course, members who donate should get some minor benefit in return!

There is simply no argument against keeping Public Square unified to make the Square more enjoyable, more beautiful and most importantly more safe than turning it into two Public Rectangles. To argue the contrary is simply being argumentative and close-minded. There have been minimal to no true complaints by RTA riders about the rerouting and no loud voice about RTA commuters being late to work because of the re-routing. The dollar impact to RTA is a concern but the math is rather fuzzy. At the absolute very least, the Square should be unified all weekend Saturday-Sunday and from 11:00am to 2:00pm Mon-Fri so that the lunch time folks can enjoy a peaceful Square and not inhale carcinogenic exhaust fumes while inhaling their lunch. In reality; however, the pedestrian risks during rush hour will become confusing with the Square becoming two Rectangles. There is a reason the Square was opened as a unified Square - because it is obviously better that way! That's common sense. Ask any recent visitor if they think the Square would be better with a bus lane carving through the middle of it and they'd look at you like you were nuts! I favor protecting and encouraging walking over the very minor RTA inconvenience. Why is there no massive bus lane running through Millennium Park, Washington Square, Union Square etc...? Because it makes no sense!

^ I believe the design of these bike racks is to place your front tire in the slot and then lock your wheel; however, I am not 100% certain. If this is the design intent the bike can still be stolen without the wheel. The sharp edges of the bike rack don't make sense if the purpose is otherwise as they will scratch your bike's paint.

Already seen numerous motorbikes ride through the Square, cyclists riding on the paths causing near accidents with pedestrians, cyclists grinding their pedals on and damaging the new cement forms and wood benches, the lack of any clean-up of the stain on the cement forms, no visible security, no police presence, trees that are looking too dry, the lawn starting to brown, the beds are too dry..... Already, there seems to be a lack of on-site security/park workers to control behavior and a lack of maintenance. Incredible error in staining the wood benches, after they were installed, thereby damaging the cement. Very odd that park rules are not posted. Should consider not allowing cycling on the diagonal paths. Looked great from the start....hopefully they raise the remaining couple of million dollars for maintenance (both ongoing and preventive) and hopefully there is the foresight to establish park rules and post them at prominent entrances.

^ Respectfully, how does having a bus stop moved just 25-50 yards add up to hundreds of thousands of dollars? Is there an unbiased study on this. There is no significant fuel usage increase nor man hour increase.

^^SixthCity "Quick question - does anyone have an opinion about the roof of the cafe?" Yes, should have been a green roof, as previously discussed on this thread. I am very impressed with the signage that gives recognition to the very generous corporate donors. These carved stone pavers are tastefully done with no intrusion into the aesthetic. Great job! This should silence all of the negative Clevelanders who were so concerned about this and who paint too broad of a negative brush against all corporate entities. Without them, this park would not exist. Kudos!!! If anyone can post photos of these I would greatly appreciate it. (I've only seen a few on other websites) Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6560.2520.html#ixzz4Cb3Hkic5

^ Agree! The current traffic situation is not awful. Looking at the webcam at all hours, the traffic is not that bad and it is empty on the weekends...thus the bus lane should certainly be closed on the weekends. Already saw a guy on a mountain bike jump on to the concrete benches and wood benches and ride his bike on them with his pedals scratching the cement and wood. No security in site to police the Square....why am I not surprised. Chicago's Millennium Park is rife with Police and private park security and park workers to monitor behavior. Public Square needs to curb this crap ASAP.

^^^"The Terminal Tower's twitter account tweeted this photo earlier today of what appears to be an invitational banner to be hung in place of the art installation on Public Square. Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6560.2485.html#ixzz4CHFdaDI8" That photo from the Terminal Tower's Twitter account just proves that the design of that cafe was incredibly careless - an afterthought that was changed last minute. All of those exposed mechanicals, exhaust pipes and Roof Top Units should have been hidden under a 100% green roof. There would not have been any real cost difference and the $3 million from the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District to improve water run off should have and could have funded this. Inexcusable!

Sherman Cahal Premium Member "I hate to inform you, but the stain was applied before the benches were installed. The planks were stained from the manufacturer. When exposed to the elements, the stain will bleed out - it's a pretty common event to happen. I've assembled plenty of these benches and can attest to this somehow new phenomenon to you." hahaha! Sherman, respectfully, you are 100% wrong. Sorry. I hate to inform you (to use your words). If properly done, this should not happen. If they were stained off site, the common practice is to let the stain dry and "cure." The next step is to either apply a sealant which prevents bleeding of the stain or to spray the benches to wash out all bleeding PRIOR to installing them so that the benches do not stain and damage the concrete. Neither of these two crucial post-staining procedures were done and this then results in damage to the new concrete and more billable hours to fix the mistake. Settling for mediocrity due to ignorance is laughable. Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6560.2450.html#ixzz4Bgj5ibxm

Common sense would have the crews apply stains and protectants on the benches BEFORE installing them. Common sense would be to apply the stain to ALL surfaces of the wood and not just half of the surfaces. In this case, the underside was not treated and this is where the water damage will be the most significant as gravity exists and this is where water will come to rest, soaking the wood surface. The wood should be treated uniformly on all surfaces. Here they only treated the exposed surface of the installed benches. Pure stupidity to not stain and seal ALL surfaces BEFORE installing them. The benches should be uninstalled and the underside of the wood surface should be stained and sealed properly - otherwise the useful life of these will be cut in half and obviously there is no precedent for preventive maintenance in Cleveland. The width of the Bus Lane carving through the square was so much wider than I expected - it looks as wide as a four lane highway - rather wide for one lane of buses but may be nice for Farmer's Markets and Art Fairs. I also noticed yesterday, that the beautiful white picket fence in the Huntington Bank plaza that faces public square was being fixed - they were reattaching loose aluminum pickets. I asked the crews when and if this was going to be replaced, as it looks ridiculous and they flatly said "No!" Though who knows how informed they are.

Just visited Public Square. Looking nice but rather surprised that they did not take the opportunity to clean and touch-up the Soldiers' and Sailors' Monument. It is incredibly filthy with black soot. The sandstone is simply dirty and has not been adequately cleaned since it reopenned 6 years ago in June 2010. It is a glaring omission in this great new park. Perhaps this much needed cleaning is in the works, but I highly doubt it. (Same goes with City Hall. The exterior facade is representative of a complete lack maintenance and filth - it too is full of grime and black soot - and I'm surprised it was not cleaned in preparation for the convention, and more importantly, just cleaned as part of a regular maintenance program.)

TPH2, Thanks for the photos! The concrete forms have several grooves that create a nice design element and I assume are a skate deterrent. Do you know if true skate deterrents such as Skate Stoppers will be installed? In the vein of preventive maintenance, it would be prudent to install them before the damage occurs. And they actually look nice too! Photo is of the new River Walk in Chicago which has large concrete forms for seating and landscape borders, all with skate deterrents. One block of the River Walk was late to install them by about 1 week and the concrete got extremely damaged by skate boarders.

^^ Personally, I think the park should have been renamed. There is much precedent for this in other cities when they renovate or build new city parks. As the Public Square neighborhood is now becoming more residential, such urban parks become quite crucial for city dwellers whose growth is so vital for downtown. These new urban parks don't need to be meccas for protests and marches. Especially when there is a large vacant lot right next to PS where the protest stage could have been located. Oh well, I guess we should just let the brand new $50 million space get trampled on and vandalized and be sure to protect the vacant city lots and parking lots because it's in the constitution - which I believe was written by authors who felt women shouldn't vote and slavery should be legal - but as HtsGuy pointed out above, I'm no constitutional scholar ;-)

So excited to see the completed project and truly hope the materials and maintenance can hold up. Amazed and disappointed (and dumbfounded) that the City has decided to immediately make the new urban park/square the focal point of anger, protests, marches, controversy, and negativity instead of a tourist, resident and city-worker place of enjoyment, beauty, serenity and entertainment. MUST READ: http://www.cleveland.com/rnc-2016/index.ssf/2016/05/newly_updated_public_square_wi.html#lf_comment=514991888 INVITING the protests and marches to establish their home base in Public Square immediately after it opens will potentially destroy the park's first impression, as it is televised nationally (and internationally) full of angry anarchists and protesters and damaged by the inevitable. There are so many city owned surface lots and vacant lots where a protest stage could have been erected. To use the new beautiful public square as the epicenter of protests is simply dumb. No way Chicago would permit this in Millennium Park. No way would NYC permit this on the HighLine as soon as it opened etc. The immediate damage to the park is certain - to the physical space, landscaping, hardscape and perhaps equally important to its spirit and the revitalization that it represents. What a shame!

^Wow, that was a fast reply! Thanks so much. Hopefully it gets done with some good landscaping.

mrclifton88: " That white fencing is temporary. They are planning to install a monument sign and landscaping in that area. " What defines "temporary?" Do you have any idea on when this will be corrected/fixed? Has anyone seen any plans for this? Regarding the construction on Public Square and the sidewalks that face it: That ridiculous partially painted white picket fence facing Public Square has been up for over a year!! Not sure how or why the city provided them a permit for that fence! The city and the BP/Huntington Tower should have much higher standards and greater vision than to let a high-rise building erect such an architecturally and aesthetically incorrect fence - no matter how long it is up. There is not a high-rise building in any city that would build such a fence nor a city that would permit such a fence! Painting it white to draw attention to it is so plain dumb! Choosing a picket fence fresh from Menards is pathetic. It now looks even more out of place with the new Public Square. Why does the city permit this type of low standard work? How could the management of the tower have no aesthetic or common sense!

Always good to be the HBIC! :-) Here are some photos from the last two days of the Square itself and the Huntington Bank Building Plaza that is directly visible from the new Public Square and that borders and faces Public Square (thus germane to this topic). The first photo is the very first view of PS as you exit Tower City from the pedestrian vantage point. When you are at the top of the beautiful new lawn you are able to see the entire top/roof of the new cafe and you can see over the new cafe. These are pedestrian views of the new Public Square. The other two are of the longstanding partially white picket fence on the Public Square facing plaza of the BP/Huntington Tower. This picket fence seems a wee bit out of place from an architectural standpoint and is an unusual fencing material for UrbanOhio and Public Square.

PS is looking pretty good! While many have ignored or have not been too rattled by the lack of creating a green roof, an equal or larger contingent, as am I, are disappointed for many reasons. I would like to see this space be the best in all categories including the main objective of adding aesthetic improvement, green space improvement and environmental improvement to the square. I don't want to settle for mediocrity. I have seen numerous green roofs daily, as I live in a high-rise. It is now the norm to green all new low-rise roofs in an urban downtown area. To not green the roof is antiquated, luddite, thoughtless design. Many have argued about the cost that greening the roof would have incurred. I'd counter that throughout the country this is not an issue, as numerous smaller buildings do green their roof and especially do so when the bird's eye/ aerial view is important not just to photographers but to surrounding tenants above. The photo of a Chase bank in Chicago can be viewed upthread as an example where the residents in the adjacent tower and the Alderman demanded that the roof be greened. The cost was and is also not an issue for PS to green the roof because the project received money for this very purpose but completely ignored the large square footage of the cafe. The renovation received $3,000,000.00 from the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District for this very purpose!!! The money was to be used to decrease the water runoff and rain water from entering the sewer system. It is simply ridiculous that this money was not used to green the roof! The cost could easily have been covered by the $3,000,000.00 from the Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District. Before arguing against greening the large roof (about 20% the size of the lawn), please read the article from Steven Litt. I am not sure who they are fooling when the LAND Studio,Group Plan Commission as well as the NE Ohio Sewer District, and Steven Litt all ignore the greening of the roof, which would increase the greenspace, decrease the hardscape and increase the stormwater permeability: http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/10/public_square_renovation_recei.html While PS is looking solid, it could have looked a lot greener and been more environmentally friendly with the cost covered by the NE Ohio Sewer District. Perhaps, in the future this could be accomplished.

"The moment everything is done and people are focusing on the actual space nobody will remember this argument beyond those who are inclined to fixate on the one negative aspect of the overall design of the project." Read more: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6560.2275.html#ixzz47q2qFNk6 I fully understand how the architects design gets changed throughout the build process. Unfortunately in this case, the renderings seem to sneak this design flaw through vague shadow boxes on the drawings. It is also a lack of foresight, and perhaps intentional neglect, of the review board to completely ignore the ariel view. And I'd certainly argue that there is not "one negative aspect of the overall design of the project." There are two. The lack of a very doable and not cost-prohibitive green roof and the idiocy of bisecting the square. I frequently have the Tower City PS Construction Cam open on my desktop at all hours, especially at rush hour, and there is no "ring of steel" and no significant traffic jams circling and stalling movement around the square Monday - Friday. And on the weekends, the traffic is absolutely non-exisitent. The square should be unified on Sat-Sun to start, and in one year, it should be fully unified.

Sadly yes...What you see is what you will get. Of course, all early renderings of Public Square where the cafe was originally designed as a more pleasing ellipitcal footprint did not include the Roof Top Units and disorganized pipes. The cafe was redesigned too quickly and the bird's eye view was ignored. The North, South, East and West elevations show the disorganized RTUs! It's amazing this passed review! http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2015/06/first_look_new_designs_for_pub.html

Ha! Nope. Yep you are correct. A disorganized mess of pipes, and heating, air-conditioning and ventilation equipment does look so much better than green vibrant plants. I can't believe they even bothered to plant trees and grass in Public Square. There should be more pipes, mechanical equipment, exhaust fans (that hopefully will rust) instead of lush greenery. I just wish the cafe was so much bigger so that we can have double the amount of Roof Top Units. RTUs are so much more interesting and aesthetically pleasing than gardens of plants and vegetation. But only in Cleveland do we plant Plastic Plants in large planters in front of our number one tourist attraction: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Who needs real plants when you can have plastic plants! Who needs green roofs when you can have antiquated building design rife with HVAC RTUs and exhaust pipes!!

Looking at the view of PS from the Tower City Web Cam, it is clear that the roof of the cafe is poorly thought and poorly designed. It is simply ridiculous to not design a green roof in a new park where clearly a major objective is to add green space and an aesthetic improvement to the center of the city. No one could argue that looking at HVAC equipment that is bound to rust and loads of pipes is beautiful, state of the art, intelligent, environmentally friendly, thoughtful design. It shows a complete lapse in judgement. The square footage of that roof is about the same size as the water feature! So why would you not make it a green roof! The photo below is of one of many bank branches throughout Chicago that have full green roofs. That's how good, thoughtful urban design is done! I find it too "typical" of the Cleveland attitude to acquiesce to mediocrity instead of striving for greatness.

Re: Cleveland: Public Square Redesign « Reply #2273 on: Yesterday at 11:32:00 PM » LikeQuote OMG I'll never go to Public Square now! Will you be out there scrubbing the oil stains from the streets? Will you be out there picking up trash that blows in the wind? There are other things to nit pick over than something as inconsequential as this. You are adding 20% to the cost for pure aesthetics when it isn't needed. A green roof is all about show for a building of this size - With all due respect, a green roof is certainly about aesthetics and thus why not strive for superior aesthetics? Why settle for mediocrity? Adding green pace to downtown is a great idea as would be adding more green space to neighboring perimeter PS building's roofs.. The extra cost is not that excessive for a project this size nor a project of this importance nor a project in this central location nor a project which will be one of the most photographed iconic images of the new Cleveland. Why skimp? In Chicago and other major cities, several small buildings have 100% green roofs. I have seen numerous bank branches in Chicago much smaller than the building in PS that have a 100% green roof. If a small bank branch can do it why can't Cleveland? The Apple stores all have Green Roofs, and so many larger buildings in Chicago green a portion of their roofs. It would be great to see the Casino's roof with trays of succulents.

Agree 100%. All of the HVAC should have and could been hidden and the roof should be a 100% green roof. Simply put, this is a HUGE error and demonstrates a major budget cut and design flaw. It is very easy to hide 100% of the HVAC equipment. You simply have internal steel girders creating an additional low height floor above the highest ceiling height and place all of the HVAC equipment on this internal highest floor and vent the units out the side of the building with a louvered grill in the facade. This has minimal street level aestheticimpact. The birds eye view of PS will always be the most photographed and published viewpoint and this exposed HVAC equipment ruins the landscape. All of the aerial shots for conventions, tourism promotions and sporting events will show this flaw and all office tenants, residential unit owners and hotel guests will see this major unintelligent design flaw.