1400 Sycamore

Now where does the idea come from that "Butler County" has this huge amount of tax credits when compared to 3cdc? It would be reasonable since the former speaker of the House was sitused there, but who says so other than here?

I didn't say anything about economic growth.

Hahaha. That is like saying the patient died because he stopped breathing . . . when he was shot in the head. Of course the growth stopped when people started fleeing Detroit like it was was an open house in Hell. Here, try this: http://bfy.tw/HNEY

Growth is highly overrated. Detroit and Atlanta were really fast growing cities.

Which brings me back to my first contacts on this forum, defending my very good friend and mentor who was accused of "warehousing" vacant properties and holding back development. Of course, the accusations were venial and ill informed, and one can see today the brilliance of the strategy of holding the properties until development had acheived enough enertia to see real quality built. Now that real development is underway (as opposed to the piss poor efforts of the past) these jewels are coming onto the market and being purchased by Model and Rhinegiest and others who have big plans for them. It is those properties that will spur the jump across McMicken St. and get the "Mohawk" neighborhood underway.

Its perfectly understandable. Much of West End was lost due to the building boom for highways and subsidized housing. If there had been greater demand in the 50's and 60's much of OTR would have been demolished. No one cared a whit about the housing treasure OTR held. And, further helping OTR was the lack of cut up and bastardization that occurred elsewhere. It just wasn't worth making a 8 room single family into 3 little apartments because no one wanted to live in OTR in the first place. So many of the houses renovated now are pristine. Almost what they looked like in 1920 or even 1890.

I wouldn't be happier. I'd like a few outsiders to stop posting here because their academic mumbo jumbo is nauseating, but I think Matthew posts actual ideas and feelings. And, after all isn't the old "if you don't like it here, move" the shibboleth of a mean spirited past? We are better than that, aren't we?

I think there is a certain edginess that some buyers find attractive. They can be pioneers without the actual hardship. $500k seems a little pricey for that privilege, but there is no doubt that the prices exceed the residential value of properties on upper Elm.

The only thing cruel is your high horse perspective on people whom are suffering and need support and help. When I was down and out and didn't have electricity or food, the local church was the only people who kept me from starving to death. What an awful perspective you have. Where are you when these people need help? Such a shitty and self centered person you must be. Apparently, you did not leave your past far behind. Were you an addict?

The down and out homeless and street people provide cover for the dealers. They are not really their customers because they don't have any real money. A couple dollars is mostly what they have. They are sustained by the do-gooders. God only knows how many residential units the Franciscans and other religious have blocked out for ghetto housing. Tender Mercies, Mary Magdalen, Joseph, etc. are all well meaning but just enabling the addicted and mentally ill. No one will convince the do-gooders that enabling is not a good strategy. Its a cruel strategy.

This is an important development topic. One of the most important. I thought we had agreement that getting rid of the dealers was of prime importance. It is for me. Apparently not for everyone. What I have seen over my 20 years in OTR is that development brings better paying, less violent customers to a population of dealers. And, the dealers bring a thug element to town from all over (east, west and across the river). Want to by some pot? "Let's cruise up Elm Street." While they are here they cause trouble, steal, fight, litter and are generally unpleasant. The exact opposite of what is described above. Tolerance of these dealers keeps them on site and protects them. Gives them a place of business. a franchise. They think they own the location. Their customers come with impunity. Development adds better paying, less violent customers and does not deter them in the least. And, it is not at all about whether they are arrested or drugs are found. They just don't like being photographed or the police stopping them to ask what they are doing. That is more than enough to send them elsewhere. That is why they can't be found in nice neighborhoods where people don't put up with their antics. Not because people in nice neighborhoods are not their customers. Often they are. We all have to follow our own path, but I would welcome anyone who wants to stop by my corner of the world to see if my approach is working. I do claim partial credit. Greg Wilson

Well, I am glad that you think you have made a lot of progress. We obviously differ on tactics and agree on objectives. The reason there are no street dealers in Hyde Park is not because people do not buy and smoke pot there and other drugs, it is because street thugs are not tolerated there. Hyde Park is at one polar extreme, Vine St. at another. In between is a variable spectrum of tolerance and presence of dealers. I could put Mudville on the spectrum and cite the Citizens on Patrol there, and Mt. Washington on the spectrum and cite the lack of citizen involvement there. I am confident that constant police pressure is the anathema to dealers, not development. You can have you own opinion, which you apparently do. After all it was you who contradicted me. Regards, Greg Wilson (how about if I just sign my name since anyone with a keyboard knows who I am anyway).

Oh, Doctor. Did I forget to say how right you were? And, how smart? Sorry.

Oh, is this 12th and Vine? Haha. The businesses up there have invested a small fortune in Police Detail Officers who keep the dealers at bay during open hours. And, there aren't many actual "residents." Without police and resident complaints nothing will happen.

So its taken 8 years and they moved 300 ft. Good job. If you are referring to Upper Elm, the residents have done exactly nada to remove the scourge. Some displacement has helped. But, I would venture that the problem is as bad today as it was 8 years ago. Just different drugs making the difference with the relative disappearance of crack cocaine. Elm and Liberty is still a shithole. Even with the development, I can't even get my paralegal to park up at the Vital records office.

Street dealers are the scourge of a neighborhood. Completely ruin it. Zero tolerance is the only way to get rid of them. They shoot each other, engage in petty crime when not dealing and promote thug life and attract other low lifes. Anyone tolerating them is an addict or a criminal or highly misinformed. Until they are gone, nothing good can happen on a block. They were run off Main St. and Sycamore. There are no street dealers in Hyde Park. If one is seen, we call the police and complain. The police show up when you call them and the dealers move on. On Sycamore, i called the cops 20 times because the heroin boyz were using a bus stop on the quiet block as a drop. The neighborhood operations officers roussted them every time i asked. You couldn't find them now with the FBI on my block.

The Hertz Center on Vine was built for $44million, pays $815,000 in tax. The $750k was a non starter. A deal killing offer. No one gets that kind of deal.

What do they need for distribution? Stagnaro headquarters and Miller beer which is probably 10 times the volume of Rhinegeist only uses about 300,000 feet of their Lunken property including truck docks and parking. I think there is plenty of room on Spring Grove.

I think it should be put at the old Kahn's site on Spring Grove. The site is clear, requires no displacement, and is about 1 million square feet if you count everything, plus another 10 acres of the police impound lot which could be moved anywhere and the whole thing could be done with surface parking. Rhinegeist owns it now.

if it takes 10 years to get a development like this done, the county is out a ton of tax money. If it takes 10 years to get $2 million in taxes on a project chances are it is still worse off because of the present value of today's money. A mid rise in the CBD might take 5-7 years from start to finish, but a 150,000 square foot office complex in an exburb is a 2-3 year project. You are mistaken about the CPS' wisdom in rejecting a really crappy offer. I tend to agree with others who have said that the whole negotiation was designed to take FCC off the hook once they saw how much the local anti-gentrification folks were going to extract. It has the smell of a deal killing offer, not a deal making offer.

Its hard to say how much West End development will occur in the next decade. I guess some people are betting against it because it has been dormant so long. I see opportunities there. It wouldn;t take much to generate $750,000 in tax. One mid rise or a single 140,000 square foot office complex would about do it.

My understanding is they don’t need land from CPS in Oakley and under a port authority structured deal they could perhaps avoid these specific taxes that way. But Todd Portune put out a tweet saying the deal would have to address CPS taxes in order to for him to approve it (I guess a port authority deal would have to be approved by the commissioners.) In Oakley, they can reduce the taxable value with TIF. The School Board would oppose it but it wouldn't be up to them.

Aesthetically, the designs are hideous. Like having a giant piece of machinery in the neighborhood. About 5 stories tall. Just no smokestack. It would make development limited to public housing within the line of sight which everything is due to the flat terrain. Only persons who have no choice or are not paying for it would locate near it. And, it is worse that the facilities would be vacant and security patrolled 300 days per year or more. It belongs at some nice highway interchange out in Outer Boofoo.

I meant people who did not file false tax returns with the Ohio Department of Taxation. My mistake.

You've been completely wrong on your other property tax assertions. None of the three properties I purchased in Hamilton County in the past five years reset to their purchase price. Jake, I have been trying to teach you this stuff for over a year. First, the Klotter property you bought from your dad and "reported" the sale as $0 on your Conveyance fee statement so you didn't have to pay the fee. So, it didn't revalue to the purchase price. The Bauer properties were purchased in 2017 and the tax bill you got in January was for the first half of 2017 so those haven't been revalued yet either. So just stay out of stuff you don't understand.