snakebite

They can shove their TIF up their ***. The plan for it is an isolated hermetically sealed environment with huge parking lots to prevent people from doing anything but entering and leaving the district in their cars. There is no public benefit.

Yeah for more sprawl, more car culture, more decentralization, more environmental harm, more drunk driving!!!! Can't wait to go to Condado Brook Park. Crocker Park just isn't cool enough anymore. This will do us until the Guardians want the next Ballpark Village afterwards out at Rockside Road. I love the race to the bottom.

You make a good point on that too. A lot of the research behind stadiums not acting as economic drivers are from the days of when even stadiums which were built in urban centers, they were still isolated and often cut off from their surrounding neighborhoods by surface parking lots and expressways. If they can build this with a roof over it which will bring in big major events and also host two anchor tenants in a venue that blends into it's surrounding area then I would say this is the bar for what a football stadium can be in this country, just a shame we are probably not in the frame for MLS. Good for Chicago if they can get this done, it's been a bit of a whipping boy in recent years for it's problems with crime. People really need to understand that these stadium and arena deals require compromise. Putting a hard fist down and saying no public money is just as naive as giving out a free pot of cash with no return on investment. I don't want a flat out bad deal for the tax payer and the community but I also don't want to lose the team, and maybe I'm being naive if I think most people want something similar.

Chicago will get a SB from this and I suspect will also have the Fire MLS team as an additional tenant. About as good as you'll get for an NFL stadium. Although where will the fat, lazy, hysterical, scared suburbanites park? Oh wait nobody cares in a big boy city.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2024/04/greyhound-barons-likely-relocating-to-rtas-stephanie-tubbs-jones-transit-center-following-sale-of-historic-station.html Apologies if not the correct forum or mentioned already, but seems like Greyhound and Barons likely moving to the Stephanie Tubbs Transit Center and not to Puritas. Good news IMO if this occurs, we don't need two bus stations so close and consolidating an existing facility and increasing its usage is certainly no bad thing to me.

92.3 starting to sound more and more like a mouthpiece for the teams. Waxing lyrical over the Atlanta Battery as a like for like comparison to the Brook Park idea, totally ignorant of the circumstances. No mention at all of the size and dynamics of metro Atlanta or the fact you have huge companies with HQs and massive corporations with a significant presence on its door step. They actually said "make it like Crocker Park" in terms of making it workable year round.

I know the airport Sheraton was saddled with debt and is facing demolition, that alone is a pretty negative for that type of development in that area for me, however whats hotel occupancy like otherwise around the airport these days?

Yeah almost sounds too good to be true. This isn't a huge open market like LA.

The NFL wants to open up the Superbowl bidding just like the draft rather than the same sunbelt cities taking it for granted that they'll get one every 5-10 years, they want it to be competitive. A city like Cleveland with an enclosed stadium in a central location close to event space and hotels absolutely can get a Superbowl in my view. Let's also not pretend that Vegas, Atlanta etc are toasty at the start of February. Only really maybe Phoenix, Miami and Tampa are a good thing to be in at least the 70s weather wise.

Cleveland feels like New York to me compared to KC. Having lived in a spread out region like this it's why I am vehemently against Cleveland sending assets of any sort out to the suburbs without a fight. I suspect the Chiefs end up in Kansas now next to the Speedway and MLS, Royals I would be more worried about. I think they'll play off other parts of the region first however when you vote these things down you can't be surprised when whispers of Nashville, Salt Lake City other parts of Texas etc come into the discussion. They should be in NKC and the Royals in the East Village but people in this city are so concerned about their cars and parking that I think Downtown whilst not dead is on life support. We are lucky to already have these things Downtown so it's a status quo and people are more accepting here. These venues should be catalysts for public transit and walkability. Not 20k parking spaces for gas guzzlers and tailgating.

Much worse climate here in KC than Cleveland in terms of the suburban mindset. You have suburbanites who are used to having the teams on their doorstep and have misplaced fears over crime and parking. Then clueless Mayor, County Exec and rushed plans from the teams. Considering my options here now, Downtown KC sucks and it really needed this. The car climate is unbareable here, I can't get a bus from Johnson County KS to Downtown KC outwith 9-5 Mon-Fri ffs and theres going to continue to be no demand for this sort of stuff when you don't put assets in the core which make people want to go there. Don't be KC Cleveland!

Baltimore's downtown hotel occupancy has doubled from 20-40% on winter weekends an NFL game has taken place. Doubt the other three major leagues could touch that let alone minor leagues.

I think there's some sort of misty eyed view that the Browns leaving the Lakefront is going to instantly turn that land into Vancouver. Much of its border sits alongside dockyards, surface lots, a highway and an airport. Apartments in its place next to the museums still sit plonked on an island more or less.

I suspect they would have some success leasing, the Browns are obviously a huge part of life here and living in close proximity to a "Browns World" will appeal to some, especially suburbanites concerned about "crime" who wouldn't take up the already existing option of living next to them Downtown. The problem is any success this has as a wider development also beyond the stadium is going to be at the expense of other parts of the metro that suffer because of tenant poaching. On the point of airport noise, I grew up living next to a busy rail line for years which was bad enough, I can't imagine living on the doorstep of an airport especially if you aren't used to it.

This is a risk to Downtown beyond losing the football games, it's another super dooper mixed use suburban district who will need to recruit other big tenants to survive and it will just spread the region further thin. This isn't Atlanta or Dallas. I'd love to see the economic case behind this as every single other ballpark village in the country has either more than one anchor tenant or has nearby major uses which drive traffic to them and this is football which has a quarter of the games of NBA/NHL and 1/8 of MLB home games. If this is more than just bluster like the Chicago Bears with Arlington Heights. If it's real not one penny of public money at any level should go towards this. And in terms of neutral events they are touting with the dome I'm not sure what they attract in suburban Cleveland. Maybe an Ohio State or a mid level college football game here and there? They aren't getting Final Fours, Superbowls or Wrestlemanias. You need the walkable hotel and event space nevermind the climate.

Here in Missouri small catholic Fontbonne University is closing and being swallowed by the adjacent much larger and more renowned Washington University in St. Louis. Feels like this is a growing trend of mergers and acquisitions within the education world where these tiny colleges despite their debt are becoming attractive to larger peers wanting to absorb their enrolment numbers and campuses.

I live here just now unfortunately (might be the most car centric major city in America) through circumstance and Truman Sports Complex might well be in the s**ttest part of town. There an abandoned hotel and a burnt out Denny's across the street the other side of i70. Blue Ridge Cutoff the main road next to the stadium isn't even paved and people have been hit by vehicles on several occasions. Amenities wise theres a Casey's gas station and a Taco Bell across the street and another run down hotel. The Hunts are very frugal with money despite being billionaires and got s**t on regarding poor facilities and player treatment in the NFLPA survey that came out today. The Haslams are like philanthropists compared to them. They would never build what the Haslams are doing with Astor Park in Columbus let alone what the likes of Titans or Jaguars are planning with NFL stadiums in urban areas. Cleveland feels like London or New York to me in hindsight since coming here. We don't want to be Kansas City, believe me.

The Chiefs in their peak era of multiple superbowls want 500m public money to keep a suburban stadium and flatten the Royals stadium for more parking - another 2,000 parking spaces - there is already 20k on site and no viable public transit. This is a prime example of why when the time comes to hand over public money to the Browns, and it will, we absolutely have to get some return on investment. That is absolutely horrendous. I don't know if anyone has ever been to Arrowhead or Kauffman stadium, it might be in the worst area in America for major league sports. Dump is being kind.

Where's the Kansas City flight!? Still a connection between MCI and CLE for me or a long ass drive. 😡

The Post Office site is the sweet spot for a stadium in NEO. It's just close enough to Downtown without it being in too central of a spot that renders it to be a waste of land. Reminds me of Pittsburgh, Seattle etc. Of course the USPS being on the doorstep of the airport logistically is a no brainer. Gerritdun.

The other thing is, all these "amazing bars and restaurants" the likes of the 92.3 hosts are gushing over. Sure at first there would be a novelty. However how would this be sustainable long term after the shine wears off? What is going to make their business plan unique? How would this not just cannibalize the other mixed use suburban projects and then we are talking about the likes of Crocker Park and Pinecrest as dated and past their time in the same way these places did this to the older malls and urban areas? A suburban football stadium with 10-12 events per year surrounded by asphalt sounds like a disaster of a business plan. You could point to the proximity of the airport but this is no longer a hub where waves of people from all over the region and beyond are driving in to stay overnight to fly to far flung destinations. Lambeau Field has a convention center and an arena across the street plus it's generally a much more historical venue, Packers training camp in the Proximity. Patriot Place has two major tenants in a much bigger metro area. Ballpark Village in St. Louis is right Downtown near offices, the Arch, arena, main transit hub. Battery in Atlanta has corporate HQs for huge companies on its doorstep. Inglewood, Arlington etc etc. These sports orientated developments still don't just rely on a few games a year to fuel them. Jimmy can cough up the 2.5-3bn himself if this is what he wants.

The stadium absolutely does not need tonnes of parking. That's just typical American conditioning that has created this ridiculous over reliance we have on automobiles, particularly caused by civic decisions to position regional assets in suburban areas instead of clustering and complimenting in central areas. Whilst it's naive to completely ignore cars, there's swaths of parking, surface, street and structural all over Downtown that is ordinarily not in use on Sundays when office users are absent for those who want to drive. Developing projects with cars at the forefront has gotten us nowhere but trouble and whilst it should not be ignored it should be a minor point of consideration. A suburban stadium surrounded by 20k parking spaces funded by the tax payer is 1970s antiquated crap and almost gross when you think of how it (indirectly) encourages high levels of pollution, then all the BS like increased levels of drunk driving. Really had to laugh at the 1100 presenter gleefully talking about people would be able to take a skywalk from the airport terminal to the stadium without ever having any interaction with the outside area. Real great urbanism that creating this soulless bubble. Cleveland compared to a lot of its peers has actually been pretty good when it comes to this and even writing previous wrongs like the Cavs playing in Richfield. All our teams play Downtown. We haven't sent our main public further education campuses to the suburbs. Keeping the Police DT. All these things add up to the collective bigger picture. The local civic leaders should not be encouraging a decision like this whether it's at City or County level. They go there they go alone. If they want this then they should be paying for every single penny IMO.

The Brook Park site is just madness. You can't build an Inglewood CA or Arlington TX development in this market. Those projects also have more than one major tenant.

They build in Brook Park they can pay for it themselves. There is absolutely no return on investment for the tax payer out there.

Sounds promising. Maximizing the life of the current stadium and also keeping it DT after the s**t that was floated before about potential sites in the suburbs. Its going to be a big tax payer investment regardless so there needs to be some sort of ROI for the public which a stadium in the suburbs surrounded by 20k parking spaces doesn't offer. Personally I'm a traditionalist and prefer outdoor stadiums, the indoor venues to me are largely sterile save for the dome in New Orleans. However I would like some additional protection from the elements for spectators and more cover over seated areas plus I'm not convinced a dome here will add enough events to make it worthwhile financially however if thats what they want to do and people support them going all out, I can roll with it too. That being said though, there is playing in cold conditions and then there is playing in stupidly dangerous weather for extra bro points. Feet of snow in Buffalo where people are putting their lives at risk literally travelling to the venue, multiple people in Kansas City being hospitalized with hypothermia.