snakebite

Wouldn't surprise me if we see a cheaper canopy style option as opposed to a fully enclosed dome.

Theres maybe only 4 or 5 cities in America that have the leverage and the private wealth base where world class stadiums can be constructed without public money being fleeced. Even a major metro like Atlanta dished out 700m for the Falcons stadium barely 25 years after the Georgia Dome opened. You either lose the team or grudingly fund a deal which is a "lesser evil" so to speak. Theres no way a militant stance of no public funding is going to keep major league teams in cities like Cleveland.

Can only speak for one hotel, but every single room in the Crowne Plaza Downtown was booked out this weekend. The weekend of a mere pre-season game. Football isn't simply just 10 games, its basically 10 weekends of strong activity Downtown which we shouldn't readily dismiss and be happy to concede to the suburbs.

A suburban stadium in NYC or Boston or DC for instance makes far more sense than Cleveland. These cities have much larger more robust CBD/Downtown areas that have been able to better withstand the death of industry and suburban flight, mainly due to as you suggested their larger populations and subsequent levels of wealth. They also don't have the same issues with acres of empty properties and surface parking as well as much more comprehensive public transit systems so suburban development is less disconnected. Cleveland's peers are more the other AFC North cities of a similar size and social issues and they all have urban stadiums because it's been so much more difficult to breathe life into their cores and the suburbs are so cut off.

If we are talking specific sites the Lakefront is wasted because it's a prime water's edge site that would otherwise be in demand so I would agree in that regard. I don't think football stadiums can't have a place in urban areas however. Tailgating was born simply put of having no other alternatives. Cities like Seattle and Pittsburgh have nailed it IMO having stadiums on the edge of their CBD's in areas that would otherwise be potentially barren and this in turn has stimulated further development as there is an appetite for people to live in close proximity to their favorite teams. I've read research of the spin off effect in places like Downtown Baltimore and Charlotte in regards to having stadiums close by. On one particular weekend in the dead of winter hotel occupancy Downtown doubled from 20 to 40% due to a Ravens home game. The post office site was a solid chance in line with that and I am not opposed to the NE corner of Downtown which is rife with surface parking and underutilized properties. It shouldn't be bang in the middle of Public Square but there are other areas in close proximity I feel it's more than suitable to go and can even provide a spark.

Moving a major attraction out of Downtown to a suburban site in an era where we are trying to get away from reliance on cars and show more consideration for the environment is not good at all IMO. And if it comes with one of these entertainment districts then further decentralizing and spreading out nightlife options is hardly a help either. We need a strong Downtown with a cluster of varying uses in close proximity. Not major attractions dotted here, there and everywhere and spreading the region thin. And they are still going to want a huge amount of tax payers money for a suburban site where there's much less spin off benefit for surrounding business.

I'm not surprised at the uptake in office development. I think some organisations and younger professionals like the modern campus style office setup and see the traditional scrapers and suburban office developments as stodgy or outdated.

I think that Jags stadium is a good barometer of what to expect. 62k capacity expandable to 71k with field cover, plus some associated mixed use development in a non-major/tourist drawing NFL market. That doesn't sound too dissimilar to what the Haslams want and where we are in some senses. The difference and the difficulty for the Haslams though if thats road we were to go down however is that Jacksonville is both absolutely desperate to give their Downtown a shot in the arm, nor do they want to lose their only pro team, so they probably have as weak a bargaining position as any market in the NFL or pro sports in general.

I travelled from Kansas City to St. Louis last year on a Greyhound and to the naked eye the overwhelming majority of passengers were within a low income bracket. I actually was sat next to someone who was travelling back from California to PA for a funeral that they couldn't afford to fly for and they were not going to put their car through the wear and tear of that trip. Funnily enough that trip was delayed by inclement weather so I dread to think how much worse a situation like that would be sitting at a bench in the suburbs open to the elements. The staff I've had have been great but Greyhound just come across to me as a company with a no frills business model on a par with ULCC airlines who will happily fly to places in the arse end of nowhere if it saves a penny or two. Sadly as flying is generally over longer distances and time consuming there's more of a window to get away with that compared to bus travel. Glad to see the relevant authorities are fighting to keep the traffic Downtown but Greyhound strike me as not really giving a s**t.

Meh. Pro sports makes its living conning municipalities for facilities so theres never really an ideal scenario. However, this is still nowhere near one of the worst and at least gives some return. It at least ensures the team would stay Downtown. This is a penthouse suite compared to the motel Buffalo Bills plan of a downsized stadium surrounded by parking in the suburbs. Theres far worse owners in pro sports than Haslam. The Columbus Crew stadium has panned out well. From a selfish football purists view, I hate domed stadiums, but I'd like a bit more cover on the seats to protect from the elements.

Frightening to me how well it fills in the gap looking West along Euclid.

There was a survey done in Jacksonville recently and it asked residents whether they would support or oppose the city using up to $750 million of public funds to split the cost of stadium renovations with the Jaguars, 61% of those polled said they oppose the expenditure, either strongly or somewhat. It also suggested that 84% said it was very or somewhat important for the city to have an NFL franchise. I think that gives a great snapshot of how people view stadiums and also the emotional tug that gets used in cutting a deal. There is no way any civic leader or politician in Cleveland or NEO regardless of affiliation is running a campaign off the back of telling the Browns, the Haslams and the NFL to leave if they don't pay for it themselves.

I think people are very wishful if they think we are keeping this team without a public contribution and of course civically the team is very important to the region so there isn't going to be a passive indifference about them leaving. There would be uproar. That's where there needs to be a realistic compromise and to me that's using the stadium as some sort of economic driver despite the obscene amounts of public money they're going to get whatever the outcome. There's research which I could post later from Baltimore and Charlotte which details the economic benefit of NFL stadiums on hotel occupancy and for the hospitality industry. We are going to spend the money regardless so let's get some sort of spin off and not a disconnected stadium out in the 'burbs surrounded by nothing but asphalt. I favored the Post Office site as it gave them more of a blank canvas to work from and I am not to a fan of NFL stadiums slap bang in the middle of a Downtown area. If they feel the Post Office site is too detached however then that bodes well for them turning up their nose at a suburban site.

Its nowhere near as bad as billed IMO. Feels like theres some bureaucracy sure but also sounds like just sifting through the process of trying to work out a plan which wasn't going to happen overnight.

I was starting to panic that they were ready to flee for Strongsville after those posts. I think we are a good bit before that is a consideration. Remember Haslam played a big part in the Crew moving Downtown. Thats his idea, a stadium anchoring a mixed use district in an existing built up setting. I preferred the Post Office site personally, the sweet spot for an NFL stadium is on the edge of Downtown, i.e. Pittsburgh or Seattle. Its definitely not Orchard Park, New York surrounded by a sea of parking.

Not entirely sure this is relevant in this thread, but the casino looks to have had some decent movement lately. Sportsbook now open and a Starbucks opened at the tail end of November. Jack have opened their own online sportsbook so I guess they've probably added staff to reflect this also.

That is definitely good news in all seriousness. Renderings and masterplans as good as these can easily suck you in however so I'll just keep my expectations rock bottom for now to avoid disappointment, i.e. Nucleus.

Its all just renderings bro

Good stuff. We need as many of our municipal assets clustered in the urban core to make it as resilient and diverse as possible. A bullet dodged in the battle against decentralisation.

We're lucky to have our main University Campus Downtown. Same with Tri C being there, so many of our peer cities decided the suburbs were a better fit, which generations later is to their detriment. Speaking as a "commuter school" graduate of a big city I went to such a place because of its proximity to the city I lived in, like every other student I knew, not because of athletics or conventional college town life. This masterplan looks very promising as for so long I've felt the University has undersold itself, as yeah, merely a commuter school.

Bills game moved to Detroit due to lake effect snow. If you ever think we have urban problems related to suburban flight in Cleveland then chill out and look at Buffalo. Suburban open air NFL stadium surrounded by nothing but asphalt in the snowiest city in the country, their main University out in the suburbs too. Cleveland is Manhattan compared to Buffalo.

Loved this recent tweet of yours @KJP

Fantastic news. Nothing says a finger on the pulse of a region like a suburban base of operations. Where is Audacy based in the city btw?

Is there anyway they could operate a combined justice campus with the county on the transport rd site?

Disappointing IMO. Frontier and Spirit could have combined for a decent operation at CLE which would have increased the scope for something resembling a hub.