snakebite

I see the Buffalo Bills site plan is out. Now thats an urban planning disaster if I ever saw one.

Whilst stadiums/arenas (especially football stadiums) are only used a limited number of times per year, its become apparent in the last decade or so that the presence of stadiums however is attracting additional development across the country and that train isn't show signs of stopping anytime soon. The stadium staying where it is is not going to be a total barrier to further development IMO. This isn't the 70s where stadiums were built surrounded expressways and surface parking lots with no consideration for their external surroundings. Teams are wanting to make money beyond gamedays now. Theres clearly a market for people who like having their favorite team on their doorstep and a view of the stadium from their bedroom or living room window or being able to walk to a game from their place of work. Of course cities and municipalities are still being ripped off, but they are increasingly at least getting some sort of beneficial spin off now.

@KJPDid your source r.e. the Post Office site discuss at all the prospect of a jail being across the street eventually?

I'm generally fine with a new build as long as its in or close to Downtown. For the love of God don't take it to Strongsville or the like as Modell considered all those years ago. The land the existing stadium is on is ripe for development, but as long as its not at the expense of losing the stadium to the suburbs for me. Thankfully it doesn't look like the Haslams have any intention of that and they were involved in the Crew new stadium which suggests they favor Downtown/centralized venues. The NFL is about keeping up with the Joneses though (literally) they'll want more than a stadium, its land for additional development too. I think the signs point to the Post Office site for a few reasons (if the source is to be believed). 1) More availability of land 2) Quick access in and out 3) More control on parking 4) The fact that site is a tad awkward walking wise from the heart of DT means they could to some extent monopolise where people spend their money on gameday. 5) If the other site requires tonnes of smaller property acquisitions and displacement of existing tenants then I think you've higher potential for lawsuits and negotiation problems. Interesting that the Feds have now decided they are staying put. The big stickler for me about that site is its a hallmark site of yesteryear stadiums in that its cut off from its surrounding environment by expressways, surface parking lots and brownfields, but sports teams are now big in the development game so teams aren't developing like they used to - a bog standard stadium and then an ocean of asphalt. I don't expect hotel occupancy would suffer too much from the current site, but I expect bars/restaurants would suffer somewhat. If they go with the Post Office site though and want additional development however it needs more than just a football stadium with 10 games a year. It'll need multi use development, apartments, office space, soccer stadium, amphitheater for guaranteed leisure traffic in summer months etc. I think they could pull that off because the Browns are such an iconic part of NEO theres so damn many people who would want apartment with a stadium view and they could charge excessive prices for the privilege. Obviously we the public are going to foot the bill big time whether its a renovation or a newly constructed stadium, so we might as well use it as some sort of an economic driver.

I'd agree the Boston bid was also not strong because of where Foxborough is comparative to the city itself (would have actually went with Baltimore over Boston, the DC bid was a sh*tshow), but its still associated with a much more notable city, with a world class hub airport with tonnes of international flights, plus its well positioned on the east coast to get there from Europe etc. Foxborough also at least has a rail link to Boston as well and theres development of some sort within the vicinity to keep fans occupied (Patriot Place). Arrowhead is just a sea of asphalt in a city with piss poor infrastructure - I went there in 2019 and within the area you have two dinghy hotels, a gas station and a taco bell - I waited an hour for an uber after the game because of the pile of up of traffic trying to get out. Its designed for tailgating and nothing else. You could probably say the same for Cincinnati for example in terms of infrastructure, but it at least has scheduled transatlantic flight service and the stadium is in Downtown not Blue Ash which mitigates some of the issues it would have experienced.

KC being on an island geographically helped them, plus the lack of a decent bid from big cities in the Midwest like Chicago and Minneapolis. It would have been the last city I'd have selected out of every single one however. Unless they somehow build a rail link out there in four little years (and the Royals seem to be leaving for Downtown) I can just picture the circus now of 20k England, Germany, Italy fans etc scrambling for ubers in the middle of suburban Missouri.

Kansas City holy f*ck. A suburban stadium with nothing around, terrible public transit, a crappy airport miles from Arrowhead, lack of hotel rooms.

CAK just landed a non-stop to Vegas with Breeze.

Good. Clustering is the key to a strong city. We're lucky compared to a lot of cities actually. Most of our municipal assets are all in or close to Downtown. Courts, city/county facilities, stadiums/arenas, museums, main educational establishments, theaters, media outlets, transport hubs, major corporations and business entities, the center of our nightlife. Its why I hate moving the Police HQ out to the arse end of nowhere. We even have two hospitals virtually on the edge despite University Circle dominating the health scene. Let's keep it that way.

Glad for that. A recognisable, affordable gym brand is always good. One of the many pieces of the pie when you are factoring the needs of all the different people in the area.

That transport rd site is a no brainer. Frees up the existing site for more appropriate uses, still keeps the facility in a centralised area close to DT, activates an empty site, situated near a rail line from DT, stop the screwing around please and get it done. Love, Snakebite.

Sports venues still generally rip off tax payers but they provide a lot more value for money now when done right in urban settings or with additional development or regeneration in mind. Teams realise the stadiums of yester year in the suburbs surrounded by nothing but expressways and surface parking aren't desired by the tax payer nor are they any use to teams as the venues become white elephants if they are out on an island and don't integrate into their environments. Thats why I don't get the Bills deal. They've burned tax payers for what looks like a 1970s suburban stadium plan rehashed. St. Louis is a great example of that. I dread to think what their Downtown would look like without Ballpark Village and Busch Stadium there. Its been ravaged by suburban flight and decentralization way worse than ours has.

Yeah I dunno how I feel about this. On one hand I'm kinda glad its finally got a good chance of being filled in and the fact they have a tenant committed for the office space will help the certainty around the project. My girlfriend used to live very close to here as well and walking past that empty space was just about as life sapping as you could get. However as others have said above I'd like to have seen a hotel, nothing fancy, solid Courtyard by Marriott type mid-tier offering suggested by others. Oh well, onwards and upwards.

Silly question probably that just crossed my mind. Is the building going to be housed entirely by SHW and associated operations or will there also be leasable space for other businesses too?

so excited to be finally getting a sheetz downtown

Are the "upper" floors of those buildings currently vacant?

Sigh. NEO needs one strong airport, not two glorified bus shelters and is this a dig at CLE as opposed to CAK who are at least aggressively trying to attract service. It's easy to sit here and say its only Allegiant or its only Breeze but this is not an airport with a terminal bursting at the seams. Where is the growth?

Urbanohio waiting on the Nucleus

https://www.dispatch.com/story/news/local/2021/09/28/all-three-arena-district-sports-venues-host-games-wednesday/5897098001/ This is fantastic!

I honestly don't mean to come across as condescending, although I know I probably will. What were your expectations honestly?

This needs thrown in the trash now and something fresh looked at. Time to cut ones losses. Its the hope that kills you as they say.

Although I don't quite share your overall view of DT elsewhere in the thread. I can't help but agree with this. If anything its getting worse as the main tenant now appears to be looking for the exit. Be as well building a gas station on that land at this rate tbh.

I was sure they were going to announce the new Tower City tenants.

Interesting. Will definitely keep on eye on what tenants they attract. Hope some people manage to keep their expectations in check and they can bring in businesses that increase amenities to frequent users of Downtown. Usual idiots on Facebook will lose their sh*t when they see Discount Drug Mart, Penn Station Subs and some local businesses they've never heard of as opposed to Apple or H&M no doubt.

Do those planned Astor Park apartments and offices have ground floor retail space? I'm an out of towner but have always enjoyed going to CBJ games in the Arena District with all the bars around there pre game and its a perfect spot for the Crew Stadium. I had that thought the very first time I went to Mapfre and felt the location detracted from things a bit. Will definitely combine a trip or two with CBJ and Crew games on the same weekend. Always stay in the same Airbnb spot in the Short North just before Downtown. Great to see the clustering of these things in close proximity. People often describe sports stadiums as a money pit but if they are strategically situated they can create year round business and energy for the areas they are based in. Also these places aren't just used on days there's something on the field. Browns stadium is used 150 days a year IIRC. Lambeau Field is in use every single day except Christmas!