cadmen

^ And that's the problem. It's not the building so much. It's the building AND the location. This design in any number of suburban office/hotel spots would be perfectly fine. It would fit right in actually and no one would care. But it simply doesn't belong sitting on a prime corner. For the record, l don't have a problem with Geis. They do perfectly good work when they are designing and building in some non-descript office/warehouse park. Nothing wrong with that. But if they want to compete in the city and in prominent locations they need a completely different mindset. But I doubt they can pivit all that much. I'm sure the people they hire don't have that kind of portfolio or understanding. So then it's the Landmarks Commission that needs to be the gatekeeper. But they're not doing that either. And l think it's because they don't know what they don't know. Do you think that kind of (non)thinking would fly in Chicago, New York, Miami or any other city where desgn matters? Of course not. We need more expertise in this town.

So...same as it everwas?

Yeah, we got a problem here but not the problem you think. The problem is not just ONE bad building. It happens. The problem is with the Landmarks Commission. Any pennypinching developer can propose a lackluster design. They're not required to offer a great design with their first proposal. But the gatekepper? They're suppossed to have a modicum of awareness. They're supposed to represent the city and as such should encourage a developer to come up with something besides the lowest common denominator. The only thing our experts are expert in is not understanding they work for the community and not the developers. Is the Commission made up collectively of important peoples brothers-in-law?

^ Little by little.

^ And that's one man's opinion.

I forgot that. Now that l think about it l remember talk of very shallow retail spots. Looking forward to the end result.

So we have two proposols here. The stadium and the lakefront. I want the stadium somewhere downtown, preferably on the lakefront for two reasons. First, obviously is to keep the dollars and energy downtown and secondly, building it on the lakefront will ensure that the lakefront gets developed. Too many assume that if the stadium is built in Brookpark the lakefront will get developed too. Not necessarily. We've been trying to get it built for several generations. What in our sorry history of non-lakefront development makes people think if a stadium (and ancillary village) is built in Brookpark the lakefront will still get developed? I think the single best way to get BOTH is to build both on the lakefront. Otherwise...who knows what what will get built. We finally have a chance to kill two birds with one stone. I say fling it.

Yeah as modern as the tower is that parking garage looks like it was built in 1970. Jeeze. How much more thought and care would it be to at least put up some kind of facade? Baring that they should at least use some of their color people to put up lighting that could incorporate rotating colors or something. I'm not an artist or anything but l imagine SHW could come up with something fun and interesting rather than this version that looks like an afterthought.

I could be wrong but l thought Geis had an "out-house" design team.

Really? Can't make out all of the details but at first glance it looks like a giant carport. Is that what a couple billion gets you these days?

It's all a gamble. At any rate, build it now will probably win out. After that let's hope we can get several mid-rises on the west side of 25th overlooking the park and downtown. Those views and proximity to the park should make for a great little neighborhood.

@Ethan You and l are usually in synch with our opinions but not this time. You do make a valid point in saying if not this development then when, but my point is not only is the location worth the wait for a design befitting the site but l don't think it will be all that long of a wait either. Interest rates don't have to come down all that much and by the time they do the park will become a magnet, the lower level of the bridge could be open and then we may get a developer with deeper pockets. And if we don't, well we can always build another knock-off. I say it's worth the wait and worth the gamble.

@LlamaLawyer l agree it's an ok design. Agree to disagree that it's above average but it's not the design that's the issue. It's the location/design that's the issue and you haven't addressed that although maybe that's not a problem for you like it is me.

I don't really have a problem with the generic design. It would be fine in most city locations as it would add much needed density. The problem l have is one others have as well. This is a PROMINENT location. A gateway to downtown, adjacent to our giant new urban park and if things turn out an entrance to another very cool urban space, that being the lower level of the Detroit-Superior bridge. A location like that requires a building of equal importance. If current interest rates prohibit building anything of prominence then do the right thing and wait a few years. Don't waste this important site on a very mediocre design. Wait a little and be rewarded with a greater return on equity. Wait and the city gets a beautiful addition and you fatten your bottom line. Just wait because if you build this version everyone is a loser.

^ Oh man. That is a wonderful pic of a city l could live in. The layout and density is so appealing. Just beautiful.

^ Yeah, l don't even want to think about it...can't think about it. Getting Americans to actually use passenger trains, actually fund and actually build/rebuild rail lines, l can't, l won't even think about it. It's like going back to a time when people were more relaxed, more civil, lived a life beyond their their phone screens. We're a different place now, a different people. But man, actually having access to trains (the best, most comfortable, most civilized form of transportation ever invented), actually being able to take a light rail (l know we're not talking about light here) to a central location that is connected to a station with access to heavy rail that comes often and goes everywhere...well those times have come and gone along with black and white movies, along with a time when people were less jaded, nicer or at least pretended to be. Real train travel. I can't even think about it.

The Bears staying on the lakefront doesn't mean much for Cleveland's plans other than it does change the momentum just a touch from suburban stadiums back to the city. I hope both the city and the Haslams are listening.

Until we get to see the plans for phase Il we have a little time to speculate about it. As in will they decide to build a similiar (identical?) but just a smaller version with the same orientation? Will they build a similiar version but angle it instead? Or will they do something completely different? My choice would be a very similar tower on an angle creating a mini-park between the two. At any rate, like all of you l can't wait to see what they build AND how tall it will be.

Anyway you look at it each little rate hike will shake out some projects as different developers have different resources. Hopefully, the increased rates will slow the economy and thereby reduce inflation which will then allow the Feds to lower rates which will then allow more projects. Rinse and repeat.

^ I mean...makes sense to me. I got a lot of paint cans in MY basement, l imagine SHW has quite a few themselves.

Adds a nice sense of color to the area.

That view of downtown is my favorite one of the city. Too bad there's no way to access it for a longer look except from a moving car.

The did raise rates fairly quickly but the problem wasn't that so much as they waited too long to begin raising them. And while 6-7 % isn't all that high (l remember when they got to the high teens in the late 70's) compared to 1% in the recent past it comes off as a kind of sticker schock. I agree we'll have to wait probably a year until they fall enough for most big projects to get started. Not to mention the whole WFH crap putting a real damper on office buildings. It is amazing to see SHW bucking the trend.

Man can you imagine Phase ll actually being taller than the first building? And it could happen if all of the potential components (new staff, hotel, parking and SHW suppliers) all took up space in the building. Sure, l know it's unlikely to happen but a guy can dream, can't he?

Dummy me. Wrong adjective but doesn't enervate sound like it means energize lol.