OC17

It looks like this building has about a 58% occupancy. Last renovated in 1989. Let's hope they can fill this place with lots of new businesses and employees.

Oh, no! This is the Columbus version of public transportation? This is the future of U.S. transit? lol...and no one is driving this thing. How many people fit into this thing? Given the huge size of Americans today....lol.

That ''comedian'' Mike Polk and his CLE tourism video caused almost as much damage to Cleveland's image as the 1969 river ''fire''.

It may be ugly on the outside, but you should go inside. It is a visual cultural experience. How do we preserve important cultural assets while developing - i.e., not "gentrify". Maintaining strong, existing businesses important, but it sits on an extremely important piece of land that has strong development potential. Do we integrate their business into a new structure, and would they be willing to do so or potentially pay high rents? Keep their building and develop around it? Will the owners sell out when the time comes and impact would that have? Questions that I ask as a very fresh urban planner. I would hope that future developments along this strip of W. 25th will be able to make room for Kan Zaman to stay in the neighborhood. It's a unique place with a loyal ethnic customer base, and I'd be pretty sad to see it replaced with a "hip" (white) place similar to Townhall. Since Kan Zaman owns the land, perhaps a developer could reach a deal with them that would give them a good deal on rent in a new space in exchange for buying the current Kan Zaman property for future development. Hopefully a ''hip'' hip-hop club can get back into the W 25th Street mix as well.

While never actually saying ''Polish'' many of the characters were Polish; think Stan Auski, the Six Dollar Man or Mary Hartski, Mary Hartski. No doubt which ethnic group is targeted here, complete with the white socks (also known as Parma's) and flood pants. Classic 1970s Cleveland:

Yes, this Scranton Peninsula location for GLBC is supposed to be a 2nd production facility. Business as usual in Ohio City otherwise.

The Vans were promoting Shaker Hts in that era, complete with the Rapid Transit Lines. Lots of potential for high-growth in that era, 100 years ago to serve new residents in a massively growing city/county. Denver in 2018 is planning the same thing. Denver is anticipating continued strong growth.

I agree with you on this point - That's what I meant when I said this: I was just pointing out that in many cases, it's entirely appropriate to build transportation infrastructure before residents are already there. I get what you're saying. I guess the question is what type of transit infrastructure would be built for a Thunderbird type area. Dedicated bus lane? This all depends on how much population is expected here in the end. As an aside, really don't like this Thunderbird name; can't they just go with The Peninsula?

I don't think any of the main (non-WFL) lines perform poorly during rush hour. Do they? Red Line, at least in my anecdotal experience, is packed during commute times and seems to be pulling riders at more random hours than it seemed to three years ago. I do think Scranton is in kind of an odd spot to tie into any existing lines (an elevator up to the bridge from Carter Rd would put the stop basically right as you enter TC, so probably not ideal). It would almost need to be a new LTR line that did something like shoot down Lorain into the Scranton Peninsula, down Carter Rd, then up to Superior, terminating at Public Square (or shooting east, if we want to dream even bigger). Of course you have more riders during rush hour but I've seen the changes over the years regarding rush hour, especially in and out of downtown/TC. Not many standing room only, packed trains at 8:15 or 5:15 or so. Commuters are the backbone of transit systems. Picking up random off hours riders is great as well but the daily commuters carry a line. I would, if the $ was there, loop the WFL up E 9th via TC, back east; another line up E 9th, west on Superior out to the west side, using the old D-S streetcar line, grade on Detroit, perhaps connecting at W98th Street, out through Lakewood. One can dream... All is key to massive job and population creation in Cleveland, Cuyahogo County, and the region.

Transit can come first and can be the catalyst for the density. The Van Sweringens built Shaker by first putting a rail line into farmland. You use the rail line as the amenity to sell people on the otherwise disconnected neighborhood. "Live in Thunderbird, quick commute downtown on transit." It's the same thing with roads, honestly. You build a road somewhere, and then people want to live there. The WFL is not a good comparison because of exactly what you mentioned - it goes to a bunch of tourist stops. The Thunderbird transit would be for commuting and if transit were to be built, you'd have to make the neighborhood zoned for very high density and require development to be high density. Of course there are plenty of reasons why it most likely will not happen, funding being the most important. But also a question of demand - do we have the demand to support a high density neighborhood on Scranton Peninsula? But inherently the idea that you can't build transit until you have density has many historical counterexamples. Often the transit comes first. The Shaker Rapids were built for Shaker Hts at a time when Cleveland was one of the fastest growing cities in 1913. Cars weren't really a factor yet; different era. And look at the low ridership #s on those lines today. Downtown Cleveland needs jobs, and lots of them, to rebuild its current transit lines ridership, rail specifically. If Thunderbird generates 1,500 or 2,000 residents, how many will commute daily round-trip into downtown? Look at Cincy's abysmal streetcar ridership, and that runs from The Banks to OTR. So given the WFL has been around since 1996, the Red Line 1955, and Shaker Rapids (1913) why aren't the riders there anymore? Not many people living around the WFL use it for commuting, especially into downtown but then again the line was a city of cleveland invention designed to bring visitors to the old booming flats of the '90s.

Even if transit infrastructure isn't built immediately you would probably want to plan for it in the initial build-out of the site. Otherwise you would be attempting to cram it into existing development in the future which would be more expensive and potentially impossible. Not planning for growth would be a pretty short-sighted mentality. This site would also probably be kind of a nightmare in terms of traffic once it hits capacity. It's not as if there are a ton of vehicle access points. I also maintain that a lot of the WFL's woes result from it's extremely inconvenient hours of operation. Right, see how it plays out, such as building a bus-lane in re-built roadways. Not sure what the long-range plans are for the peninsula other than this Thunderbird plan and Great Lakes offsite building. The WFL extremely inconvenient hours of operation relate to lack of demand.

There's no way to know (or even guess) that at this early stage. Right. If the population determination is premature, then so are transit options. This logic doesn't begin to make sense when we're talking about the middle of a major city. There's population all around. And it's not like the early-stage planning wouldn't include roads, so why shouldn't it include everything else? That's the whole point of planning. Because you don't build an air-tram, light rail, or streetcar into an area until you have proper density. There's population all around Cleveland's current rail lines, yet rail ridership is anemic especially given your description of Cleveland being a major city. As stated, a great starting point is how many people are expected to live in Thunderbird. So why would early stage planning include rail if the population doesn't warrant it? So far this is only a proposal; early stage planning may, in fact, include transit. Rail? Unlikely. My response related to a poster stating that he/she wouldn't live there due to a lack of transit options. This same poster proposed extending the WFL, another the aerial tram perhaps or a streetcar up to Tremont or Ohio City. That's a bit premature considering no one knows how many people will live here (1,500?) Hardly a # to warrant rail extensions etc. Maybe a trolley bus loop would work through here eventually but unless this becomes a tourist/visitor mecca, that's not gonna happen. Look at the abysmal WFL ridership; a line that serves the lakefront stadium, rock hall etc. Anyone living in "Thunderbird'' can hoof it to the WFL Settlers Landing station if they need transit so much. Perhaps sufficient demand/density would warrant the cost of extending or creating a rail line. As we know, transit is politics in Cleveland as well. RTA faces an uphill battle in putting its tin cup out to taxpayers given the recent internal issues (George Dixon). So far, even in these early stages, no mention of transit except of course in this forum.

There's no way to know (or even guess) that at this early stage. Right. If the population determination is premature, then so are transit options.

Any idea what the expected total population will be related to this project?