OC17

Then the MLS should just award Cinci its team if there's nothing wrong with the bid.

Here's what I don't get about this MLS expansion issue: MLS accepts 4 conforming city bids for a 2 city team expansion. Nashville walks away with a quick win. Then the 2nd announcement is delayed due to alleged issues with the remaining bids. Sacramento had ownership issues post-bid yet is supposed to be the sentimental favorite because of its many past attempts to win a team. So why wasn't Cinci awarded the 2nd team? Is the MLS delaying to allow Sacramento to get its bid in order? Sounds like it was down to Cinci or Detroit. Detroit's bid seemed solid as well, it was accepted after all. Cinci's bid seemed wishy-washy about its stadium and did come across as being rushed to make the bid deadline. Regardless, the bid was accepted and if, as I've been reading, Cinci has the best bid, the MLS should just award the team there. Or, is the MLS actually waiting to see what happens to the Columbus Crew? Either way, if I were an FC Cinci proponent, I would be more than ticked-off at the MLS for this post-bid acceptance drama.

You’re right that it doesn’t serve the purpose of ‘real’ light rail, in that it’s distance is limited and it operates at grade, and in mixed traffic. I do think, however, that the basin of Cincinnati is large enough and has enough points of interest to warrant a connector/circulator. I could be off here, but it seems like the distance (pole to pole) would maybe be comparable to Public Square to Ohio City? If it operated in dedicated transit-only lanes, had fewer stops, and got signal preemption, it would get more use. I also think if it took a more straight line approach of either up and down Vine or maybe up Vine and down Race, it would be better utilized. But ultimately, a pedestrian circulator only works if there are pedestrians to circulate. There is a large base of workers in the CBD, but they don’t really have much of a need to travel throughout the basin during work hours. Most people don’t have time to catch a streetcar and take it up to 12 and Vine or Findlay Market for lunch. OTR has a decent and growing population, and as the northern part continues to repopulate, I do think that will be a traffic generator for the streetcar. But without having a strong transit system feeding into the streetcar, I think it’s utility is going to be limited. A mass transit system that has one or two stations in the CBD creates optimal conditions for pedestrian circulators. You get dropped off in the center of town, but your destination is on the periphery of the city center- it makes perfect sense to jump on the streetcar to complete the journey. But if you have a car, and you can park relatively cheaply and close to your destination, why use the streetcar? If you’re used to taking the bus, you can normally find alternate routes to get to the same places the streetcar goes. I don’t really remember hearing this brought up in all the discussion leading up to the streetcar, oddly enough. Untold delegations of Cincinnatians went out to Portland to witness the magic of the streetcar, and no one raised the point that they had regional light rail running through their downtown, and that maybe that was a big driver of their streetcar’s success? I know I’m being a bit of a downer about the streetcar now, but it’s because I’m bummed this thing isn’t working out, and it’s clear that the system has some pretty major flaws. After how much the community fought to get rail transit in some form back in operation in Cincinnati, it sucks that it’s kind of a dud. I understand the bus drop-off to circulate pedestrians in a CBD but isn't Cinci's bus use rather lackluster and, how many people on a weekday commute into Over-the-Rhine for example? As you know, the bedrock of any transit system are the daily commuters, supplemented by occasional riders like the Cinci streetcar seems to be seeing on weekends only. Also, your point related to current bus riders changing up their bus route raises another transit issue: commuters don't like transfers if they can be avoided, especially in not so great transit cities like Cinci. This relates back to my original post about extension plans for the Bell Connector; it's a must to really get ridership going down there. Sounds like the Cinci delegation in Portland looked ''dreamy-eyed'' at its streetcar line and, like you stated, never thought that perhaps it looks great 'cuz its part of a much larger light-rail network. Regardless, even though Portland is supposed to be transit-dreamland, its transit use isn't exactly stellar. I've used Portland's light-rail system; it's a better rider outside the downtown area where it tends to be much slower.

The Cinci streetcar isn't real ''transit'' given its low weekday/higher weekend ridership and its very limited route. It doesn't tie into other mass transit lines or extend beyond a very limited area, which will result in very limited use. I just read and realized Detroit's streetcar is up and running; it may have better potential given its route and connections with Amtrak, the People Mover, and Wayne State for example. When is a Cinci streetcar extension expected? The original line has to be developed into a system-like network to get ridership #s akin to real mass transit. It sounds like a weekend novelty thing thus far. Still not understanding the idea of a stand-alone/one-way/short-run streetcar and generally the new rage for streetcars across the country. Anyway, I've never been to Cinci but expect to go there this spring. I want to see the streetcar first-hand.

The latest I've heard: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,4266.msg883676.html#msg883676 Staying optimistic about this here. A S-W tower on the northwest quadrant would really complete Public Square. Unfortunately, I just heard some bad news that SW has dropped consideration of building a new HQ tower. That's all I got. Sorry. Well, that's that.

History can easily repeat itself in downtown Cleveland. Tearing down the current JC and having another large parking lot for x# of decades waiting for a developer to step in. I would prefer an upgrade to the existing JC rather than having an empty lot there for decades. Downtown Cleveland obviously needs commercial construction but that takes an expanding jobs picture. A new construction office building every 20 years isn't going to cut-it. Where is Sherwin-Williams on its new headquarters building?

Of course this is idea sharing and personal preference. I prefer that the PS lot and the adjacent Warehouse District's massive parking lots be developed as a commercial to mixed-use on the Square and going forward with the proposed residential development in the WD. As you know, up to 1,500 units are proposed on those WD lots. I do like that E 14th triangle proposal. Direct rapid transit service, closer-in to downtown location, and not on prime CBD land. There is a ''but that's how it's always been'' or ''it's always been located there'' mentality in Cleveland. Think 200 PS or Browns Stadium for example. The idea of opening the current JC land for development by moving a new JC to PS 1 block away makes no sense to me, with or without a coffee shop on ground level. The real issue with today's JC though is: age, brutalist '70s motif, long-term structural issues, and in today's downtown Cleveland, the land value for other development.

Wasn't that Federal Courthouse on PS originally the post office? Again, though, the Federal Courthouse was moved off PS. I don't understand why there has to be a courthouse on PS, let alone a jailhouse and police hdqt

Not entirely true, though. For several decades before the Justice Center was built, the criminal courts (and police HQ) were on East 21s Street: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum/index.php/topic,9853.msg115520.html#msg115520 Right, those quaint 19th Century courthouses on PS have been gone for a long time. As far as history goes, Standard Oil was traditionally on PS as well; that's why we lost the Williamson and Cuyahoga Buildings on PS for the ''new'' tombstone known, today, as 200 PS.

The new Justice Center needs to be VERY accessible to transit. Many people going there for proceedings rely on public transit (along with a few lawyers I know commuting from Shaker). The Public Square location is about as accessible as you can get, but so would the lots immediately to the west of it along the north side of Superior. In terms of the private/public suggestion I made above, I was thinking of the Geis County administration HQ. Whatever it is the county needs to think outside the box again so we don't end up with a brutalist governement box built by the lowest bidder. Well, your original post didn't mention a Geis-type arrangement but did include a private/public sharing of the same building with a separate entrance etc; that's what I was responding to. I suppose there could be a Geis-type deal wherein Geis builds and owns the JC and leases it to the city/county. Can't see that happening given the cost, size, and the JC being a stand alone structure. Who knows. We all know Geis isn't done with downtown Cleveland though. Also, the Geis-County deal benefits Geis directly. He has a structure attached/adjacent to the 9 with an attached parking garage for both. County rent and a parking garage=great cash flow. Plus the County Bldg could be used for other businesses etc if needed with hardly any build-out, if needed.

This works, complete with a new Rapid Transit Station, and, while they're at it, extend the Waterfront Line north-south along E 9th/E 14 or somewhere to loop it through the CBD (but I digress on the WFL topic).

it actually makes a lot of sense if done right.. Why would the current JC be torn down perhaps to open up that land for development while a new JC is moved to an even more valuable location on PS?

I can't see SW doing a partnership with the County for a new JC that it would occupy in part, even if the jail was not present and with a separate entrance. Hopefully a new development will rise on PS akin to the plans of 30 years ago. A new JC on PS makes no sense.

Well, that's a different point. I was responding to the post wherein it was suggested that a private entity ie a corp like Sherwin-Williams would occupy part a new justice center. It was a good deal for Geis; he built the new County Building adjacent to his ''9'' AmeriTrust Buidling project. Not sure if a new stand-alone Justice Center would work for or benefit a Geis type arrangement unless, perhaps, its adjacent to another current or future development he or another developer has in mind. A new all-in-one Justice Center will be x$100s millions.

A certain county building was already built in a public private partnership. also, the most recent public-private buildings were completed ahead of schedule and under budget. Are you referring to the Hilton Hotel on the latter? Not exactly akin to, for example, Sherwin-Williams being in the same building with the county courthouse, jailhouse, and police headquarters. Is your first reference to the MedMart or County Building on E9th?

First off, no corp/developer will do a public/private deal to be in the same building with Cleveland's Police Headquarters/Jail/Courthouse, regardless of location. Secondly, that location on Public Square, although vacant now for about 28 years, is still too valuable for what you propose, even without the private part of your equation. Third, the long vacant football fields in the warehouse district are marked for residential construction. Cleveland needs new residents with paychecks in a prime downtown location, not the location for its new jail house. I know there's speculation about a new Sherwin-Williams headquarters, so that's what needs to go on Public Square or some other commercial/mixed use project, not the new police headquarters. Put it adjacent to the new and currently unnecessary E 34th Rapid Station so RTA can at least get some ridership increase for its buck at a station that will otherwise serve maybe 0 to 2 riders/day. That's a nice closer-in to downtown location. Who wants to point out new development on Cleveland's Public Square, or really any other prime downtown location for that matter, as being the new jailhouse? Ugh. Why would the current Justice Center be relocated, in part to open that land for development, to vacant land in an even more prominent location on Public Square? That makes no sense. Unlike what will happen in Cleveland, Dan Gilbert has agreed to build Wayne Co's new justice center in a location further out from downtown Detroit to build his MLS Stadium or at a minimum get control over this location for other development. However, like Detroit, expect Cuyahoga County's new Justice Center to see huge cost overruns.

It could be hidden in back. This may be one of those great chances for a public/private partnership--a court tower with rental space included in the tower. In back of what? On the W3rd side or perhaps even on the next block to the west, with an integrated parking/Police HQ structure. Bad idea on all levels.

Would look great on the Jacobs lot on Public Square As an attorney, I pray to God the Justice Center is never 55 stories. It takes 15 minutes to get to the 10th floor on those elevators lol. Nonetheless, while complaining, I'd love to see any Skyline addition. Everytime I drive by the Eaton HQ in Beachwood I'm always like, we could stack that for 35+ stories lol. Same when seeing Progressive in Mayfield Hts (was supposed to be a 800' downtown tower) and American Greetings sitting out in Westlake/Crocker Park.

Oh, thanks X for the feedback. I’ll just gladly fork over $150 dollars while bugs crawl on my face and food. A positive response would have at minimum to apologize for the experience. Doing nothing is not acceptable. Maybe I just have higher expectations September-October is always a ''buggy'' time in Cleveland.

I see you took Urban Planning 101 somewhere other than Goodman-Levin Planning School. So glad Cleveland's 1970s head Social Worker, I mean City Planner, was removed from the Cleveland Planning Commission in 2014. Krumholz's opposition to the PSquare redo did him in, finally.

Umm, the topic is the City of Cleveland. I didn't realize Cleveland was Solon. 60% of Cleveland's population left city; that's why Cleveland is now a city of 385,000 in a CSA of 3,500,000. The money is in the suburbs, not in the city. I am getting sick of people thinking that Cleveland includes the region. May explain why when someone says they're from Cleveland and answer the ''what part'', with "Wooster" or some other near or far-flung locale other than an actual Cleveland neighborhood. Now people expect the RTA to expand service to the areas where the jobs went so the poor, (the group Krumholz allegedly protects) trapped residents in Cleveland can get to these jobs (or at least that's the argument). So now we're expected to pay $x billions to transport poor residents to minimum wage jobs in some distant suburban or exurban area. Not cost effective. How about getting those jobs back into Cleveland, located on or adjacent to the existing transit lines, especially rail. But that takes political leadership with a post-1980 mindset. Key word you referred to about ''rich left in Cleveland": elsewhere. Lived through and experienced the results of Cleveland's Socialism is quite enough for me on that topic.

Krumholz & Co. certainly got some of their socialist goals. The middle class simply left Cleveland due to, among other things, policies by the Krumholz styled crowd. The whole rich vs. poor schtick is still being played in Cleveland; problem is there are no ''rich people'' left. So of course the city has to bend over backwards to retain and attract corporations (losing Eaton, not landing Progressive or American Greeting) as well as residents with paychecks (cleveland speak for ''rich or wealthy people''). Of course people want to live downtown, glad to see Cleveland has entered the 1990s. Krumholz & Kucinich were so bad for business in the '70s that even the mafia had scheduled a hit on Dennis. Of course the 1978 Default was a massive nail in the Cleveland coffin followed by the final nail being set with busing in 1979. So, please do not dismiss the socialist history and its result in Cleveland 2017. Sounds like you weren't there for the fun back then. Cleveland has a long way to go to replenish its tax base. It's certainly a different downtown today, as well as in OC, D-S, UC, and Tremont. Cleveland needs to bend backwards even more to get people into the city, but especially with the corporate issue, also known as jobs.

On the previous page of this thread I posted a great link to an article from Historical Cleveland on the People Mover. All you have to do is read it to realize that most of what you are saying is incorrect about the people mover. Krumholz didn't dislike it because "it would block architecture". He and others didn't like it because it was a bad idea and it would separate the rich from the poor as a mode of transport. The PM was a terrible idea no matter how you look at it. The Detroit PM was conceived around the same time as the Cleveland one and had been a total failure as far as impact and ridership. It's clear when you use phrases such as "Cleveland's socialist 2017 reality" that you aren't coming from a place of rational thought. Sorry, but Krumholz didn't like the route despite what your article states. It's a given that Krumholz thought the PM would ''separate the rich from the poor as a mode of transportation''. That was his schtick. The same old ''rich vs. poor'' issue in Cleveland; notice the Public Square bus argument related only to the poor (aka RTA riders) with no mention of the ''rich'' people (Cleveland speak for people that collect a paycheck)...maybe 'cuz they're all gone. What a ridiculous argument to use against a form of mass transit in downtown Cleveland: it would separate the rich and poor riders. Krumholz was the last nail in RTA's coffin. Thanks Norm for blocking the intent of the voters creating RTA in 1974. What Al Porter did to the voter approved subway in the '50s, Norm Krumholz did to the voter creation of RTA in the '70s. It's clear you struggle with rational thinking by not seeing Cleveland's 2017 socialist reality. Surely Norm Krumholz struggled with rational thinking by not seeing what was going on in 1970s urban America.

OK, I get it, you're bowing out 'cuz you just realized you admire Krumholz for personal reasons. Actually it's because the facts of my post you responded to are true. There was nothing ''trolling'' in that post.

Is there a point here?