AmrapinVA

Yes well maybe if you read it and also the explanation I gave you would see that it stated it was dying out by 1995 and hardly existant in the younger generation of that time which was 1995, so only now people that are 70 years or older have it. So you can dismiss a published academic research paper by the leading linguistic school and research team in America if you want, or just realize you are arguing with something imaginary because you aren't understanding what we were talking about? And also it wasn't saying that Cincinnatians have the same accent that NY'ers have, it said they had the most similar annunciation of NY'ers out of any metro in the USA, and if you read the study you can see the results yourself, and also see that in 1995 only 2 of 16 subjects aged 18-30 had that, 50% of subjects 30-50 had it, and 100% of subjects had it that were 50 or older. That makes them all 38-50 (only 2 of 16 have it), 50-70 (50% have it), and 70 and older (100% have it), that are living now. If it was as prevalent as the study suggested: Why did it die. For example: I have Taiwanese-American friend who was raised in Taipei then in Kew Gardens, Queens. If I blindfolded you and had her speak English you'd swear she was a fourth or fifth generation NYer. So why is there no more of this NY accent in Cincy? Well, if you read the study, you can see what the researchers said the reason for it was, otherwise I am simply copying what was already in there for you to read freely. But basically, overtime, immigration from the applachian south, black south, and immigration from business, etc. has crowded it out and it has followed what many other regions were seeing at that time which was a westernization of dialects. How is this unique to Cincy? How does it explain that Chicago, Detroit an Cleveland all currently have an affected EC dialect despite larger levels immigration during this period (until about 1970 or so for Cleveland and Detroit). Sounds like the group of NY-style speakers was pretty small to begin with. I honestly don't know. Your last statement is incorrect as it said about 100% of the Cincinnatians in the older age group had the most similar announciation of "a" to New York City as any metro in the USA. Like I said, you can read it yourself and the research was well done and answers questions as to why it is unique to Cincy, why it is different from other areas, etc. Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago have the Northern City Vowel Shift which is not what NY has. I'm not the expert on this, I was just relaying a study I found, so I wouldn't be the one to answer any questions on it, the researchers and experts in the field would be the ones to do that. But I would be inclined to believe them especially considering they are coming from a prestigious University that obviously has a very esteemed field of linguistics. So everyone spoke NY-style and then it stopped because Cincinnati was overrun with outsiders. It's interesting and certainly not like any other place I know of. It's quite common, historically. For example, the famed Transatlantic accent is pretty much gone. Numerous western states used to speak like Texas and now they speak like, totally, like Cah-li-for-nya. It wouldn't be a surprise that an older Cincinnati accent shifted due to immigration from a linguistically different region. You can look at New York as an example (Nuyorican and all). Eh. Ok. I will say that Southern California had a massive growth rate compared to Cincinnati during the Cah-li-for-nya days. Cincy was growing but not at that level. Whatever, Cincy used to sound like Philly, OK. I guess the Transatlantic/Mid-Atlantic accent really wasn't an organic thing. It looks like it was taught by prep schools in the early 20th century to dignify a certain class but wasn't really based on an ethnic group. It died out fast once it went out of style after WWII. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-Atlantic_accent

It's dying in NY as well though, at least according to the video I posted above discussing Bernie Sanders' Brooklyn accent. No accent, dialect, or language lasts forever. Ask those who spoke Latin or old English. That's a fair point although Brooklyn is getting so gentrified it's becoming Manhattan South. I have a fair amount of people I know who live in places the unwashed gentrified kids wont go to yet like Ozone Park and Howard Beach and their Queens accent is very strong, even with kids. Same with my Kew Gardens example. Much of The Bronx is the same way.

Yes well maybe if you read it and also the explanation I gave you would see that it stated it was dying out by 1995 and hardly existant in the younger generation of that time which was 1995, so only now people that are 70 years or older have it. So you can dismiss a published academic research paper by the leading linguistic school and research team in America if you want, or just realize you are arguing with something imaginary because you aren't understanding what we were talking about? And also it wasn't saying that Cincinnatians have the same accent that NY'ers have, it said they had the most similar annunciation of NY'ers out of any metro in the USA, and if you read the study you can see the results yourself, and also see that in 1995 only 2 of 16 subjects aged 18-30 had that, 50% of subjects 30-50 had it, and 100% of subjects had it that were 50 or older. That makes them all 38-50 (only 2 of 16 have it), 50-70 (50% have it), and 70 and older (100% have it), that are living now. If it was as prevalent as the study suggested: Why did it die. For example: I have Taiwanese-American friend who was raised in Taipei then in Kew Gardens, Queens. If I blindfolded you and had her speak English you'd swear she was a fourth or fifth generation NYer. So why is there no more of this NY accent in Cincy? Well, if you read the study, you can see what the researchers said the reason for it was, otherwise I am simply copying what was already in there for you to read freely. But basically, overtime, immigration from the applachian south, black south, and immigration from business, etc. has crowded it out and it has followed what many other regions were seeing at that time which was a westernization of dialects. How is this unique to Cincy? How does it explain that Chicago, Detroit an Cleveland all currently have an affected EC dialect despite larger levels immigration during this period (until about 1970 or so for Cleveland and Detroit). Sounds like the group of NY-style speakers was pretty small to begin with. I honestly don't know. Your last statement is incorrect as it said about 100% of the Cincinnatians in the older age group had the most similar announciation of "a" to New York City as any metro in the USA. Like I said, you can read it yourself and the research was well done and answers questions as to why it is unique to Cincy, why it is different from other areas, etc. Cleveland, Detroit and Chicago have the Northern City Vowel Shift which is not what NY has. I'm not the expert on this, I was just relaying a study I found, so I wouldn't be the one to answer any questions on it, the researchers and experts in the field would be the ones to do that. But I would be inclined to believe them especially considering they are coming from a prestigious University that obviously has a very esteemed field of linguistics. So everyone spoke NY-style and then it stopped because Cincinnati was overrun with outsiders. It's interesting and certainly not like any other place I know of. NYers managed to keep their accent despite giant waves of immigration. Fine with me. I just never meet anyone from Cincy who spoke that way. I don't pretend people from the Great Lakes cities are ECers it's just that they currently sound the closest than other places in the Midwest. I don't think many people would argue with that.

Yes well maybe if you read it and also the explanation I gave you would see that it stated it was dying out by 1995 and hardly existant in the younger generation of that time which was 1995, so only now people that are 70 years or older have it. So you can dismiss a published academic research paper by the leading linguistic school and research team in America if you want, or just realize you are arguing with something imaginary because you aren't understanding what we were talking about? And also it wasn't saying that Cincinnatians have the same accent that NY'ers have, it said they had the most similar annunciation of NY'ers out of any metro in the USA, and if you read the study you can see the results yourself, and also see that in 1995 only 2 of 16 subjects aged 18-30 had that, 50% of subjects 30-50 had it, and 100% of subjects had it that were 50 or older. That makes them all 38-50 (only 2 of 16 have it), 50-70 (50% have it), and 70 and older (100% have it), that are living now. If it was as prevalent as the study suggested: Why did it die. For example: I have Taiwanese-American friend who was raised in Taipei then in Kew Gardens, Queens. If I blindfolded you and had her speak English you'd swear she was a fourth or fifth generation NYer. So why is there no more of this NY accent in Cincy? Well, if you read the study, you can see what the researchers said the reason for it was, otherwise I am simply copying what was already in there for you to read freely. But basically, overtime, immigration from the applachian south, black south, and immigration from business, etc. has crowded it out and it has followed what many other regions were seeing at that time which was a westernization of dialects. How is this unique to Cincy? How does it explain that Chicago, Detroit an Cleveland all currently have an affected EC dialect despite larger levels immigration during this period (until about 1970 or so for Cleveland and Detroit). Sounds like the group of NY-style speakers was pretty small to begin with.

I thought there was a plan to build a giant Outlet Mall on the Lake between Burke and E. 9th. Is it dead? Not a bad thing if it is. http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2016/07/lakefront_outlet_mall_proposed.html

Well who's going to fund all these options that are out there? I'm not against other options but what's a feasible plan. Do we do it like Stark and try to build a high-rise with no financial support?

Yes well maybe if you read it and also the explanation I gave you would see that it stated it was dying out by 1995 and hardly existant in the younger generation of that time which was 1995, so only now people that are 70 years or older have it. So you can dismiss a published academic research paper by the leading linguistic school and research team in America if you want, or just realize you are arguing with something imaginary because you aren't understanding what we were talking about? And also it wasn't saying that Cincinnatians have the same accent that NY'ers have, it said they had the most similar annunciation of NY'ers out of any metro in the USA, and if you read the study you can see the results yourself, and also see that in 1995 only 2 of 16 subjects aged 18-30 had that, 50% of subjects 30-50 had it, and 100% of subjects had it that were 50 or older. That makes them all 38-50 (only 2 of 16 have it), 50-70 (50% have it), and 70 and older (100% have it), that are living now. If it was as prevalent as the study suggested: Why did it die. For example: I have Taiwanese-American friend who was raised in Taipei then in Kew Gardens, Queens. If I blindfolded you and had her speak English you'd swear she was a fourth or fifth generation NYer. So why is there no more of this NY accent in Cincy? Neither have I, but like I said, the relationship we were talking about doesn't mean "sounds like" but more "shares the most features with." I've known a number of old-timer Cincy folks who, for example, will say something like "fawther" for "father." This is definitely something done in the NYC/NJ area. Perhaps also in Boston, Philly, or Baltimore; not sure. But I don't think it occurs anywhere off the eastern seaboard except Cincinnati. This is, for sure, disappearing, though. It's gone..so it's kind of a moot point anyway.

I thought Clevelanders were defensive! Wow.

Who said anything about a concrete jungle. You're making a strawman argument here. It's generally accepted on UO that urban environments can be green, friendly, and pedestrian oriented. Did that all of a sudden go out the window because we're talking about a hospital? You could build a Hong Kong style development on two blocks and leave the rest of the property fallow but who is going to move to the open parcels? Turn the economic gears? Metro has been there for decades while Clark-Fulton and Brooklyn Centre continue to decline. Are you talking condos/apartments/retail catering to doctors (and not the neighborhood) for a few more blocks? OK. Beyond that, what? Not just housing for doctors- for nurses, support staff, senior that need regular access to healthcare. Maybe leverage the economic clout of the hospital to create supporting retail that can be used by staff and visitors to the hospital and the surrounding neighborhood. Does this extend out beyond a few blocks? No, but it's a nucleus that the neighborhood could grow around. Or it can be separate. They've chosen separate. Rather, they've chosen to continue the same separation that has allowed the surrounding neighborhoods to decline around them in the past as you've noted. Well MH can be separated by a park or it can be separated by vacant lots with a small gentrified block or two that will have nothing to do with existing residents that live there. Honestly, what's the difference?

Hahahah! Definitely not NYC there. ;D

I'm glad it's always sunny, light winds and 75 when you fly -- even at 35,000 feet. I never realized air travel was so simple. :)

It looks modern too me. It may look strange because there isn't a ton of new mid-rise construction in Ohio but they're building similar angled stuff all around the DC burbs that allow mid-rise building heights.

"Most similar" and "closest to" mean something quite different from "sounds like." The Appalachian ("southern" as you call it) influence in Cincinnatians' speech is a mid-20th Century phenomenon, as it was the Great Depression that really kicked off job migration from Appalachia. Cincinnati's original cultural and linguistic development was independent from areas in proximity because Cincinnati was a booming bubble of civilization in the middle of nowhere. Many of the early settlers and their families were from northern New Jersey, which would likely explain the similarities to the NYC accent. No Southern is very different from Appalachian. Richmond and Roanoke denizens are only 150 miles apart but their accents are quite distinct. I'm saying I've never met anyone from Cincinnati with a NYC or NJ accent. Some sound more like "gentile" South , even then not a strong as Richmond or Raleigh. Some sound like C-bus..just flat. Just my experience...maybe I didn't know the right people. ;) People say warsh in Baltimore too.

I agree about Sully and the Hudson River landing. But common sense didn't prevail with that landing at Schiphol and I think a machine would have made a smarter decision if given the choice. I understand everyone made it in safely but there's a reason why there are alternate airports in a flight plan.

Most new commercial planes can fly themselves (ironically the only issue with a complete auto-pilot is the taxi). Yet people will always be reluctant to let a machine take complete control and when something goes wrong the spotlight will be very bright. Hence, part of the reason there are still one or two people at the front of the aircraft. It's going to be very hard for humans to psychologically give up complete driving control without long-term safety performance.

Philly and NYC have similar accents? The NYC area has accents within accents...people from North Jersey sound different than people from Long Island. Suffolk Long Islanders sound different than those closer to Queens/Nassau. Philly also has different accents..South Jersey people sound different than those living in Bucks and up towards Allentown. Also, I've never met anyone from Cincy who sounded like a New Yorker either. Some sounded more Southern to me like the Central Virginia/Richmond accent. Columbus has a flat accent. So does the Norfolk/Virginia Beach area despite being in the South. I do wonder if that has to do with the amount of military transplants living there.

I think you're making a generalization about the fading of Appalachian accents. I live on the other side of those hills and I can tell you people in Eastern W. Va. and Western Virginia/Maryland have that accent as strong as ever. In fact I'd argue it's gained strength over the last few decades. Agree about the Cleveland accent. I'm 45 and nobody I know from my youth that still lives in C-land has the accent but I can hear it strongly in my parents' voices and their friends. Of course I could be generalizing too. :)

Latest GFS weather model has -45F in East Central Quebec by the first week of Feb. Single digits for Ohio. Winter isn't done yet, enjoy opening those windows!

This concept would be better served by urbanizing the Polish and Ukranian Villages to a greater extent IMHO. Better bones than trying to build a fake downtown around the old Parmatown site. Parma receives $50,000 Cuyahoga County grant for Crossroads of Parma master plan http://www.cleveland.com/parma/index.ssf/2018/01/parma_receives_50000_cuyahoga.html "Parma was built up post-WWII," DeGeeter said. "There's no really downtown town center concept like you see in other communities. Just by happenstance, this area where City Hall is and the mall is that natural town center. Even with the post war growth about 17,000 people lived in Parma prior to WWII. There's some great housing stock in these older 'hoods. Parma's government still can't see the forest from the trees.

So, the hospital invests a billion making their footprint smaller. Beyond condos/apartments not designed for the neighborhood residents (maybe)...what's going to be built? BTW, I have no issue moving the park off of W 25th and putting it behind the hospital to make it more urban.

You could build a Hong Kong style development on two blocks and leave the rest of the property fallow but who is going to move to the open parcels? Turn the economic gears? Metro has been there for decades while Clark-Fulton and Brooklyn Centre continue to decline. Are you talking condos/apartments/retail catering to doctors (and not the neighborhood) for a few more blocks? OK. Beyond that, what?

As you implied, it's understandable why such job statistics will trigger consternation from Columbus; the numbers dramatically alter the standard narrative. Needless to say, because such figures aren't carved in stone, they will inevitably vary from year-to-year and decade-to-decade (and maybe radically so) - but at least not this year that just ended. The sobering fact is that these job stats are legit, that the Cincy/Dayton MSAs have not been somehow scrambled together and that the BLS isn't just fiddling around until more accurate numbers pop up. All this kind of magical thinking only detracts from the realization that Cincinnati's job growth has been so significant that, at least for now, a new narrative needs to be recognized. I hate economic city rankings because it leads to responses like this.

Looking at the renderings, it seems that some of the townhomes will have cinderblock on the lower level. I can never understand why anyone uses exposed cinderblock as a design choice. It’s ugly and cheap looking. It reminds me of a basement. The scale appears to large for concrete masonry units (cinderblock is no longer produced). It's probably a stone, slate or synthetic panel material. Looking at the renderings, it seems that some of the townhomes will have cinderblock on the lower level. I can never understand why anyone uses exposed cinderblock as a design choice. It’s ugly and cheap looking. It reminds me of a basement. Or a parking garage stairwell. Look at construction costs and materials and methods and get back to me. Uhh..you could have just used the first response. It was pretty straightforward and understandable. Thanks for letting us know.

I actually like this concept. Cleveland was called Forest City for a reason. I've always wished that the city had enough resources to turn much of it's unwanted vacant land and parking lots back into parks/forest. The area gets so much rain/snowfall that it has some very majestic older trees not seen in other parts of the state or region.

I'm saying: 1. Let the prelim data shake out: Nov. will be revised in the Dec. update. 2. Then look at monthly data over a year. I believe Cincy is still ahead of Columbus and Cle for the last 12 non-prelim data months (ending with Oct.-Oct.) if that is what you are looking for. But the aggregate picture is better and more accurate. Still not perfect because BLS sometimes revises numbers over the long term as well but it is much closer to a complete picture of the job market.