Matthew67

Cincinnati is both awesome and an abyss at the same time. It is both stodgy, set in its ways, and innovative. There is hope! There is static. There is despair. Where's the water cooler? :P However on a more serious note. I think we all can agree that Cincinnati has its own challenges and there is room for improvement. I think our discussions would be more productive if we talked more about meaningful ways forward instead of getting caught up in semantics, details and naysaying. We're all urbanists (supposedly) on this board so really we're all on the same team. Picking apart arguments might be fun for some but it seriously ruins the posters credibility. My entire point in posting here is to show that there is "room for improvement." I don't know of an American city that does so little with so much as Cincinnati. I just wish Cincinnatians could really see what their city has and have the confidence to tell the world about it. Almost every Cincinnatian that posts on this forum does see the potential that Cincinnati has, and wants the city to achieve more. That's why they spend time on this forum. That's why many of them have been involved in various efforts in their communities. Coming onto this form and constantly beating the "Cincinnati isn't living up to its potential" drum without adding more substantive ideas to the discussion is not helpful. If that's their view, they don't do a good job of expressing it. This forum is filling with explanations of why Cincinnati must accept its place in the world...'it's hard for Cincinnati to attract conventions and concerts because of....' or 'growth in other cities is just an illusion and Cincinnati is really better off without it." It reads like a list of excuses shared between people who see an inevitability in Cincinnati's current situation. I'm just disagreeing with that narrative. Increased spending on promoting Cincinnati as a destination is a "substantive idea" that I've offered. Some gleefully tripped over each other in a rush to immediately dismiss it. That response is the most illuminating thing I've seen on this forum. It speaks volumes about Cincinnati. You're shooting the messenger here.

Cincinnati is both awesome and an abyss at the same time. It is both stodgy, set in its ways, and innovative. There is hope! There is static. There is despair. Where's the water cooler? :P However on a more serious note. I think we all can agree that Cincinnati has its own challenges and there is room for improvement. I think our discussions would be more productive if we talked more about meaningful ways forward instead of getting caught up in semantics, details and naysaying. We're all urbanists (supposedly) on this board so really we're all on the same team. Picking apart arguments might be fun for some but it seriously ruins the posters credibility. My entire point in posting here is to show that there is "room for improvement." I don't know of an American city that does so little with so much as Cincinnati. I just wish Cincinnatians could really see what their city has and have the confidence to tell the world about it.

https://www.inc.com/jeff-barrett/you-probably-havent-thought-to-start-a-business-in-cincinnati-heres-why-you-should.html. Cincinnati is getting some attention as a place to try new things. Let's hope that this gets some traction in the months and years ahead. Cincinnati can't depend on established companies forever. It needs new blood. Maybe that is starting to emerge here.

And what, might I ask, is your area of expertise? I'm a full-time resident of Cincinnati. Don't worry about whether my credentials or social standing are of a sufficiently high status for you to acknowledge my comments. I have no desire to challenge anyone's position as respectable upstanding gentlemen (I get the impression that this is a boys club). If my ideas are useful to you, say so. If not, so be it. I'm just putting it out there.

What is getting tedious? I posted some links showing how small Cincinnati's promotional efforts are in comparison to other cities it's size. I'm still struggling to understand why some find an honest and informed discussion of Cincinnati's convention and tourist business so upsetting.

I don't think that statement could be further from the truth. Nearly every thread in the Southwest Ohio Projects & Construction board is full of serious discussions about specific projects. A large percentage of people on this board are architects, urban planners, developers, historians, or long-time urban residents who have the expertise to discuss the ins-and-outs of various projects happening in the city. Really!? That's surprising. Even professionals can get confused or be misguided when straying beyond their area of expertise. That's what I see in many posts here. I'm sure we'll all be fine if we just respond to that which we find useful or interesting.

The problem is that you don't bring up serious or challenging ideas at all. You only come to this forum as a whiny ^[/member]#$%$ with little real information to share and even less understanding of the issues you bring up. This loser, Eeyore mentality you bring with you without proposing any ideas on ways to improve situations other than spend millions of dollars on vagaries is draining and pointlessly trolly. Just ignore me. I ignore much of what is posted here because I find it naive, foolish, or just not useful or interesting. This is just an online forum. It's not a religion.

It's a direct measure of your argument's quality that a counter-argument of "nuh-uh" would have equivalent soundness and evidentiary support. If you wonder why people don't seem to be responding to you as directly as you'd like, that's why. I don't really understand your first sentence. Most here use this forum as a sort of electronic water cooler to gather around and relax while getting things off of their chest and they use Cincinnati as a sort of 'meme' through which to do it. They don't come here looking for challenging or carefully thought out discussions about Cincinnati. I'm the nerdy annoying guy who joins the group who are laughing and joking by bringing up serious or challenging ideas. That's fine with me.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/lisnr-2018-disruptor-50.html Here's a promising example to demonstrate to investors what can be achieved in Cincinnati. Still, we should remember that it was the state of Ohio that provided key investment in Lisnr's initial stage, not anyone in Cincinnati itself. There is hope brothers and sisters! Being realistic about Cincinnati's place in the world will not destroy us. It will make us stronger!

Who said that?

Can you imagine what Cincinnati could do if it quadruped it's tourist promotion spending to match that of Columbus? What if Cincinnati could just match Columbus' growth in hotel rooms? Cincinnati convention/tourist trade would be unstoppable!

I'd agree. They won't be able to get the people they want in Cincinnati. O really you think so? No way..... Yes way no way doesn't make for a very useful discussion. Any reasons for your assertion? I gave some reasons. You could respond to those. Actually, no, you didn't give any reasons. I said i think that Cincy is too small and doesn't have enough professionals to satisfy the demands of a multinational like Vantiv/worldpay. If you think otherwise, tell us about it.

Who wrote that?

I'd agree. They won't be able to get the people they want in Cincinnati. O really you think so? No way..... Yes way no way doesn't make for a very useful discussion. Any reasons for your assertion? I gave some reasons. You could respond to those.

Er...you mean til I looked it up for you? Because you don't conduct any research before making your wild claims? Yeah? List the new hotels Columbus has added to its downtown. I'd love to see it. Any proof of this? Any examples you can offer? How about the Freedom Center and Zaha Hadid designed CAC? How about American Sign Museum, which is a new attraction. How about the zoo expansion and renovation of Union Terminal and Music Hall? Are those not new or improved things that would specifically attract people to Cincinnati? What about the whole push to get FCC in the MLS? Until you can site any sort of example, your claims are worthless. From your earlier postings, it seems you are frustrated that you've been unable to break into the Cincinnati social scene. Maybe the problem is you and not Cincinnati :-) Are you disputing that Cincinnati's tourist and convention trade isn't actually significantly smaller than its peer cities? The numbers and references I put here make it clear that it is. Maybe the problem is you, or rather, that you aren't even in Cincinnati. Even Jake accepts that Cincinnati has a small convention and tourist trade...he says it's because Cincinnati's leadership was savvy enough to realize that conventions and tourism make no financial sense and not because its part of a larger agenda of exercising their control over Cincinnati.

No one knows or cares about Blink outside of the region. Its a pretty awesome thing you've got, but doubt anyone even from Indy would know about it ;). Even when Cincy does stuff well it undersells itself. To be fair, it has only happened once so far. I believe I saw it mentioned in one or two national publications. I'm not saying all is being done that could be to sell the city (far from it). But it seems like that is something that would have been easy for those championing the status quo to hold back -- something that is really world class, new, and requires public cooperation and approval. It's one thing to say things could & should be done more competently, and another to charge a grand conspiracy to keep people away. Blink was a local event. There were few people from beyond a 60 mile radius. It was BY Cincinnatians FOR Cincinnatians.

No one knows or cares about Blink outside of the region. Its a pretty awesome thing you've got, but doubt anyone even from Indy would know about it ;). Even when Cincy does stuff well it undersells itself. But they will care about an abandoned theatre and subway with a water main in it? Not sure what you expect to be done with these places to make them tourist attractions. Also if you do some research on the Emery you'll know that it has more to do with UC and ownership issues and a lot of people aware of its history want it to be saved. We also celebrate a lot of our history here, so I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Plus it's awfully bold of you to act as if you understand every outsiders perspective of our city. On top of that you're almost always being a turd on here. I thought we were supposed to refrain from personal insults here.

No one knows or cares about Blink outside of the region. Its a pretty awesome thing you've got, but doubt anyone even from Indy would know about it ;). Even when Cincy does stuff well it undersells itself. But they will care about an abandoned theatre and subway with a water main in it? Not sure what you expect to be done with these places to make them tourist attractions. Also if you do some research on the Emery you'll know that it has more to do with UC and ownership issues and a lot of people aware of its history want it to be saved. We also celebrate a lot of our history here, so I'm not sure what you mean by that statement. Plus it's awfully bold of you to act as if you understand every outsiders perspective of our city. On top of that you're almost always being a turd on here. Think about other cities you've traveled to with the level of history that Cincinnati has note what they do to sell the fact that they are historic places of note - see Charleston, Savannah, Boston and San Francisco for good examples (though the later two are way larger and the former are way smaller). I just feel that given what Cincinnati has - it severely sells itself short. Even STL does a bit more to promote itself for its rich history (even if the city itself was far worse impacted by the post industrial age than Cincy was). Even in a place that has less history, Seattle does a ton to promote the Seattle Underground as a unique attraction - something that the subway could be promoted as in a very similar way. Everytime the Subway gets brought up on national level publications there is a lot of interest around it - people love these kinds of stories even if the subway itself isn't the most attractive thing - its a unique piece of hidden history and people eat that up unless they are John Q I've Lived in Cincinnati my whole life. On threads on "New Urbanist Memes for Transit Oriented Teens" a popular urbanist discussion group on Facebook with an International Audience, I've shown pics of Cincinnati and got responces like "Wow I never knew it was like this, or so unique" etc. You have way more than you guys give yourself credit for and IMO that's much to the detriment of your city's cultural well-being. They ALL do a much better job of selling themselves than Cincinnati...even troubled St. Louis.

I didn't express the difference between Cincinnati's and Columbus' convention and tourist trade correctly. 50 percent more is still shocking to me. Even I didn't realize how far Columbus' had pulled ahead in this game until I looked it up, though the seemingly endless wave of new hotels in Columbus should have tipped me off. If vastly exceeds the handful of modest new hotels in Cincinnati that some here seem to think is a major accomplishment for Cincinnati. I didn't say that individual Cincinnatians are necessarily afraid of tourists. I said that Cincinnati's political and civic elite is threatened by the political and economic effects of tourism. Few attending the local events you describe have come from beyond metropolitan Cincinnati. Visitors who do come from further away for conferences have different reasons for coming, as you say. They are here for reasons that involve more than a good time. They aren’t necessarily in Cincinnati because they ‘like’ it. They may have no opinion about Cincinnati at all. Many people go to Columbus, Nashville, Austin, or Portland NOT because they “like” (or dislike) those cities, but because they see professional, financial, or social opportunities for themselves as individuals to be had in those cities. Cincinnati’s problem is not that people don’t like it, its problem is that it’s elite won’t let people create things in Cincinnati that would specifically attract others to Cincinnati in order to experience those things. They do this because they don’t want people creating new things in Cincinnati that would specifically attract people to Cincinnati who aren’t useful to them and their economic and political agendas.

If you believe in markets, Cincinnati needs all the hotel rooms it can get. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/05/10/cincinnati-named-most-expensive-destination-in.html. The demand is clearly there. If more supply isn't being created, we have to wonder why........ More supply IS being created. In the past couple years, there have been several new hotels built downtown. 21C, Residence Inn at Lytle Park, AC Hotel at the Banks, Hampton Inn on Vine, Holiday Inn on Broadway, Renaissance on 4th. Additionally, there is the Anna Louise Inn property that is in the process of becoming an upscale Marriott Autograph Collection hotel, and there are plans for a Kimpton at 5th and Walnut, and a Town Place Suites on 7th St. 6 new hotels, and 3 either in development or pre-development. There could be more, but this is just what came to mind. Of course Newport has also seen a couple new hotels open near the riverfront in recent years, and new hotels have been built in CUF, Evanston, Norwood (Rookwood Exchange), Corryville... Ever think the real issue is that you're blinded by your personal biases? Also, here are some facts to chew on: 2016 visitors to Cincinnati: 26.1 million -- 2% growth from previous year (https://cincinnatiusa.com/tourism-counts-5-billion-industry) 2016 visitors to Cleveland: 18 million -- 2.8% growth from previous year (https://www.cleveland.com/travel/index.ssf/2017/10/greater_cleveland_attracted_18.html) 2016 visitors to Columbus: 39.3 million -- 1.5% growth from previous year (https://www.experiencecolumbus.com/articles/post/columbus-visitors-spend-64-billion-in-local-economy/) While Cincinnati receives less visitors than Columbus (and the central location and state capital making it a favorable location for in-state conventions has been covered upthread), it receives more than Cleveland. Is that because Clevelanders despise tourism and visitors even more than those sinister Cincinnatians? I just can't join in on the 'group think' here when I see the evidence.... though I am glad that we are acknowledging that tourism is economically significant. Columbus had 2/3rds more visitors than Cincinnati! That’s even worse than I thought. But, I shouldn’t be surprised. It’s spending much more than Cincinnati on tourism. According to this, https://searchwide.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Cincinnati-USA-CVB-Postion-Overview-PDF.pdfs. Cincinnati’s convention and visitors Bureau has a budget of $6.5 million and a staff of 24. Cincinnati’s ‘bed tax’ brought in $13.7 million in 2015. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/02/17/hamilton-county-hotel-tax-tourism/23585955/. I can’t find a more recent reference, but I’m sure it’s increased. This document says that the Cincinnati Visitors Bureau spent $4.2 million in 2018. https://www.cincyusa.com/images/editor/file/2018-CVB-annual-report-FINAL.pdf Columbus brought in $46.8 million through its bed tax. http://assets.experiencecolumbus.com/docs/2017-annual-report.pdf?_ga=2.258051786.1783504340.1526929264-411908131.1526929264 and I count 81 staff on this document from Experience Columbus http://assets.experiencecolumbus.com/docs/2017-annual-report.pdf?_ga=2.258051786.1783504340.1526929264-411908131.1526929264. It spent $13.6 million. http://assets.experiencecolumbus.com/docs/2017-annual-report.pdf You can do the research on Cleveland and there is state wide pubic tourism promotion to consider as well. Though this isn’t exactly a comparison of like-to-like statistics, it undeniably shows how much less Cincinnati is doing for and getting from tourism. There’s a lot more data out there to be had for a price, I’m sure. This is all occurring while the New York Times just named Cincinnati No. 8 on its list of "52 Places to Go in 2018," and Lonely Planet listed us on its "Best U.S. Destinations to Visit in 2018." https://www.cincinnati.com/story/opinion/contributors/2018/03/14/opinion-lincoln-helped-make-cincinnati-tourism-stop/405166002/ Cincinnati has far more to offer visitors than Columbus or Cleveland and yet it invests much less in tourism and travel, as I have been arguing here. Can you imagine what Cincinnati could do if it actually tried? Why hasn’t it? I think I know why and have been sharing that view here.

Cranley is a local elite pushing back. He's not alone.

If you believe in markets, Cincinnati needs all the hotel rooms it can get. https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/05/10/cincinnati-named-most-expensive-destination-in.html. The demand is clearly there. If more supply isn't being created, we have to wonder why........

We can hope.

I can’t see any evidence for that point of view. There's no either/or here. It's about power and control, not rational financial calculations. Sports stadiums ARE draws for conventions and tourists. They were sold as such originally. Cincinnati has had two huge sports stadiums and a large underused airport for years and STILL its leadership wouldn't capitalize on those assets and pursue an agenda of improving tourist and convention services for visitors. They didn't care that the stadiums created debts, they just wanted vanity projects meant to bolster their control of Cincinnati. They wanted those stadiums to impress Cincinnatians, much as the Pharaohs built the pyramids to impress their subjects. The costs didn’t matter. The subsequent lack of a tourist/convention agenda in Cincinnati shows that they never intended them to be part of economic development initiative despite all that Cincinnati has to offer visitors. Cincinnati's own elite played its residents, and the residents accepted this power play from their local elite...for reasons I have never truly been able to understand, being a non-native. If this dynamic is changing, you can be sure that its outsiders driving that change.

I'd agree. They won't be able to get the people they want in Cincinnati.