Matthew67

"Within the next 5 years"! I've struggled to understand the appeal of boom towns like Austin, Nashville, Denver, and even Columbus. I've finally come to realize that their appeal is that things simply happen more quickly than elsewhere. Jobs, development, and even social opportunities simply come along more quickly and respond to change more rapidly than in Cincinnati with its vast web of vested interests each competing for a sliver of a pie that is not getting larger. People see what they have to lose, not what they have to gain. You can change your career and affect your neighborhood and living situation more quickly in those places than in Cincy. In Cincinnati, established interests pile on anyone attempting to do something more quickly or in a new way. It's just how Cincinnati is. That's why professionals who come to Cincinnati leave after a few years. It's not a bug in Cincinnati society, it IS Cincinnati society. This is a valuable lesson learned for me. I can't ever see myself investing in OTR now, as much as I enjoy living in the neighborhood. If only Cincinnatians could see the real value of what they have.......

Thanks taestell, My purpose in posting here IS to understand how the area around Findlay Park might ever become like the area around Washington Park. Findlay Park today reminds me of stories I heard about Washington Park in the mid 2000s and I wanted to know how it got from where it was to where it is. I live in the area and have never thought of myself as a "pioneer." I live, dine, shop and socialize in the area, but I rent and wouldn't consider putting my own money into the neighborhood until I see signs of real change. This forum has shown me OTR serves as a symbol of many things for those far from OTR. OTR isn't a hobby for me, it's my home.

Sorry, I didn't realize that this was a hobby for some. I thought it was actually about OTR as a real living place.

Perceptions are reality in so many ways. Perceptions of OTR explain more about it's development that contracts, legal ownership, zoning, or structural engineering ever could. If OTR weren't perceived as unique in Cincinnati, such legal and financial considerations would be irrelevant. If there is nowhere to discuss what is actually happening in OTR, the neighborhood will continue to be a plaything of various vested interests.

Talk of racial profiling and resentment of the poor, IS off topic. I'm describing some reasons for OTR's development, it patterns, and the lack thereof in some quarters. This is all too close to the bone for some, I see. Limiting yourself to talk of committee reports, zoning variances, and "massing" leaves you largely unable to explain OTR's development past or future.

This discussion of OTR has nothing to do with helping people, being nice, being a good person, or any forms of value-signaling. This is about the efforts of a "poverty industry" to main a 'containment area' so some can then point to them and say 'what about those in need?' If you sincerely want to help people, help them to get housing and jobs in Florence or Fairfield where there are jobs for low-skilled people. Support minimum income guarantees and support housing discrimination laws so they can have more of the choices in life that you have. They shouldn't have to live in OTR if they don't want to anymore than you should. Don't be the mother teresa of Christopher Hitchens' Missionary Position. https://books.google.com/books?id=PTgJIjK67rEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=missionary+position&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjhvJurvIraAhWFtlMKHRP-AUMQ6AEIKTAA#v=onepage&q=missionary%20position&f=false

All the examples provided in this thread show that OTR's problems all stem from it being a dumping ground for the problems the rest of Cincinnati doesn't want. Even those who actually own property or operate businesses or other organizations in OTR still ironically benefit from it's dumping ground status. Romantic ideas about OTR as a haven for the dispossessed struggling to find a place for themselves in a cruel world are wrong and self-serving. OTR is the 'cruel world.' It's a place where the dispossessed are taken advantage of and manipulated by those who have found themselves able to do so. The shelter owners and operators need there to be a ready population of homeless and addicted people for their organizations to continue to justify their existence and employ them. It's the 'Mother Teresa' syndrome. The street dealers need a place to do business. The convenience store and crack bar owners need someone to buy their twinkies, $5 half gallons of spoiled milk, and to provide cover (for a fee) for their illicit activities. Those who live far from OTR need a place at a safe distance from them where they can direct their charity and sympathies for the poor. If OTR didn't exist as it currently does, they would all have a very hard time recreating these situations in other places and these 'problems' would find their way to 'the neighborhoods.' There is nothing good or honorable about 'resisting' new investment in OTR. If you think that there is, prove it by 'resisting' those things where you live. Increased property values increase the tax base of all of Cincinnati allowing it to build its public services and to plan for a more prosperous future. Descriptions of daily life in OTR are not overly dramatic. They are just something that many don't want to have to acknowledge. Don't shoot the messenger.

"Helpful" for whom? Who doesn't benefit from "pushing harder for increased gentrification?" What does job training have to do with this thread?

Incredible. OTR must have been hell on earth at one time. I have new respect for the achievements of today's OTR. Thanks for providing some historical perspective.

There are many eyes on the intersection of Elder and Vine streets most days. I counted over 70 mostly young men just standing there on Friday.

Do county sheriffs ever enter or patrol OTR these days?

Jake, are you suggesting that the Cincinnati Police are choosing not to counter dealers in OTR today for some reason? Are they still taking kickbacks?

Thanks for confirming my suspicions, Jim. The dealers ARE very comfortable and they DON'T have anything to fear from the police. They ARE effectively in control of public areas and can get the homeless, addicts, and other street people to do what they want. It IS a society beyond the law. This explains why prices for rehabbed property in OTR are so high. A significant part of the price is the cost and effort of confronting the dealers and street people by the initial owners/rehabbers. People are paying rehabbers for their efforts and the opportunity costs of doing all the dirty work of taking on against the street people over a period of time. As several have said here, this can't be done easily or quickly. Investing in rehabbed property in OTR is an investment in an entirely new economy as much as in the building and their improvements. The price differentials between OTR and Westwood or Price Hill are suddenly much easier to understand. OTR isn't a property bubble after all. Despite the age of the buildings and historic credentials of the neighborhood, OTR is actually the creation of something entirely new. How ironic.

So, the mere presence of professional-class residents and restaurant-goers was a greater deterrent to dealers than the police. That's amazing to me. It suggests a much greater insecurity among street dealers and dwellers than I would have ever imagined watching the goings on at Vine and Elder yesterday. I would have thought that nothing less than the national guard would be required to move them from their chosen place of business. It's good to be reminded that appearances can be deceiving and that OTR can change more quickly and easily than I had imagined.

So, the dealers left 12th and Vine AFTER the restaurants arrived and without coordinated police pressure? I'm glad that Ben doesn't see drug dealers as a threat. Once OTR doesn't play the role of the dumping ground for the rest of Cincinnati's 'problems,' the dealers may well come to Kennedy Heights and he'll have to deal with them, and their effect on the value of his property, directly. I'll be sure to tell the dealers at Vine and Elder how great Kennedy Heights is and that they will be welcome there.

The dealers at Elder and Vine that I walked past just a few hours ago looked VERY comfortable and at ease. They were completely unconcerned by my presence even though I'm an old, white, bald, nerdy man who clearly was not part of the 'scene' there. I stood out like a sore thumb but they were very relaxed as they discussed their affairs and passed drugs and money back and forth. If there's a plan to push back against them, they aren't feeling it's effects in the slightest. I'm sure that most of them don't live in OTR now. It's clearly their 'place of business.' They even keep office hours because they always depart around sunset. Why do they need to 'conduct business' in such a visible and public location if phones now mean it's not necessary to do so anymore? I can only assume that it's because the police let them do it there. Did the dealers move out of 12th and Vine only AFTER the restaurants arrived? Is that what developers expect to happen around Findlay? I'm not a developer, but I'd have to see some evidence of push back against the dealers BEFORE I put a penny into the neighborhood. Maybe that's why I'm not a developer.....

No, I don't. I never stepped foot in OTR until 2010, though I have heard horror stories of the old days. How did the chaos that still exists around the intersection of McMicken and Vine leave the rest of OTR? Did it simply evaporate at the sight of shiny new windows, paint, and hipsters or were the dealers, drunks, and mentally ill forcibly 'pushed' out of other parts of OTR?

That's an interesting building, especially since it had the entire north-facing facade removed. Sounds like they'll be keeping those floor-to-ceiling windows on the north facade, and the historic windows facing Elder and Race. The intersection of Elder and Vine Streets is no more than 500 feet from this building. The intersection is an open air drug market with dealing happening in plain sight. Pedestrians dare drivers to hit them on Vine and I have seen TRIPLE parking on Vine next to "Jack's Best for Less." These condos will have a view of Findlay Playground/Park which is filled with an army of drunk, drugged, and mentally ill people daily. How can they get such prices being next to, and in view of, the most threatening public spaces in the entire city? Is there a plan to deal with the chaos of this area?