Mwd711

That "pedestrian mall" is a failure and I wouldn't want that in Cleveland! You do need to exit and Cross Poydras to get to the Fulton St. Prospect & Euclid already connect Tower City to Euclid, the Gateway and Warehouse District areas. We don't need to build a faux walkway. Both Gateway and WHD have plenty of activities and events that will be of interest to those that not only live downtown but will visit. I don't consider something that has been expanded multiple times a "failure". Besides that, it was such a success that Caesars is building the same thing in Las Vegas. Anything that promotes people walking around an urban area, shopping and dining is ok with me. But here's the real million dollar question - what will Horseshoe do to get people out of the casino and onto the streets? I have no idea what they are doing in Cincinnati but supposedly both casinos are going to be a part of the urban fabric. But how are they different than any other casino? Yes, they are downtown. In the case of Cleveland's, its in a beautiful historic building. But this casino will still have its own bars, its own restaurants, parking structure, etc. Why will the average suburbanite who valets the car, walks across the street (or skywalk if it ever gets built), goes to the coat check and gambles for a few hours ever leave the casino? The casino and for that matter, Tower City will have everything they probably want. There's little reason to walk down to East 4th or West 6th unless theres something specifically they are going for. And let's face it, most suburbanites are not wired to walk through the city. They will take the easy route that's most comfortable for them. Will I walk to those places to eat? You bet, but the bigger question is will everyone else? If Horseshoe is sincere about creating urban vitality, they need to promote the city. Promote the WHD and the great restaurants downtown. Offering comps for neighborhood restaurants is nice and all but there's no guarantee that people gambling will leave to go eat there. That's my number one concern. I LOVE the location. But I am very cynical on it bringing much vitality to the streets when you're trying to build skywalks. That says one thing to me - you want people to come in and then leave without ever leaving the place. Building parking structures, skywalks and ignoring RTA is NOT the way to create vitality and street life. Is a casino better than an empty building? Absolutely. Gilbert has said all of the right things. Just some of his actions don't match his words which leads to my cynicism.

The pedestrian mall I'm referring to is Fulton Street Mall. It connects the hotel, casino and parking garages. Along the mall, they have restaurants with patios and outdoor entrances along with entrances that are directly connected to the casino. They also have festivals and street performers along the mall. When Gilbert and Caesars talk about having storefronts and restaurants connected to the street, I'm sure this is where he got his inspiration. The way Fulton Street is setup, you can dine at Ruth's Chris or go to a club without ever setting foot in the casino. It feels like part of the city. Something similar in Cleveland would be awesome. That would make the Horseshoe unique. The sooner phase two comes, the better.

Just to answer MTS, I haven't stayed at the Cosmo but I have been there. Their market isn't the same as the others you mentioned outside of Wynn. And to your other point, Harrah's New Orleans has struggled. It filed for bankruptcy in the 90s and was closed for three years. When it first opened, it was supposed to bring in $33 million a month. It brought in $13 million. In 2001, it filed for bankruptcy a second time. The casino renegotiated its license to cut down on its payments to the state. It no longer pays $100 million, it now pays $60 million to the state or 21 percent of its revenue. That's why its profitable today. Harrah's also spent a good amount of money building a pedestrian mall that's attached to the casino to compete against the suburban casinos. Something like that would be welcomed in Cleveland for obvious reasons but they have to deal with Tower City first. When Harrah's opened it was a mess, they changed everything, put a lot of money into it, to bring its revenues up. It opened barebones and paid a price in the market. They added a hotel and other amenities and their gaming revenue skyrocketed. I don't think that's a coincidence. To answer about the hotel, The Ritz Carlton isn't directly connected because Horseshoe can't offer comps there. It is not directly related. They can offer you discounts, but unless something has changed, in my communication with Horseshoe, they can't give out rooms to loyal players as they would in a normal casino development and people who stay there can't earn TR points. Once the Ritz is directly controlled by Rock Ohio and drops the Ritz franchise or there's a new franchise agreement, that can change. Now, again, that may have changed, but that was my understanding in the past. The two most urban neighborhood casinos in this country have both filed for bankruptcy one time or another. My point is that being in a vibrant neighborhood does not mean guaranteed success. Not if you have competition in the burbs or an easy access location. A casino in Northfield is competition. I'm not sure how anyone can say otherwise. Its like saying that Tower City could fend off Beachwood because it was downtown and in a historic building. We know how that ended up. Unless you offer a good experience, you will lose customers wherever you are located. If Hard Rock offers a better experience then it will reap the rewards just like suburban shopping malls did. Horseshoe needs to stay unique and offer a better experience. Its that simple. I don't think you'd ever get to the point of the Horseshoe going bankrupt, etc.. The casino market here is too small but a casino in Northfield could certainly impact their revenues. There's also the question of what Caesars decides to do with Thistledown.

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit. You cannot compare Vegas of Atlantic City casinos to the casinos that have been built in the last 10-15 years. So please take them out of the equation. We're talking about the target audience for Cleveland's downtown urban casino versus other "city center" urban casinos and the only casino that fits that is Harrah's in NoLa. What makes you think younger people do not gamble enough? Slots are not where casinos make the most cash. Table games, Black Jack and craps are the largest income generators. In addition our casino is not a "black hole" like most Vegas/AC casinos. The Cosmo is a brand new casino, not 15 years old. It was explicitly built to lure what they called the "creative class", a group that largely ignored Vegas. They've done good luring those people and many of Cosmo's visitors are new to the city. But they learned what every other casino already knew, they don't gamble as much and when they do, its at the tables which on a whole aren't as profitable as slots. Income and profit are two different things. An exception is baccarat but I doubt that's gonna be big in Cleveland since we lack a large wealthy Asian population. I'll end with this. I've studied casino gaming so I think I have a good grasp on how casinos work. I've met many of the people who are running the Horseshoe and sat in meetings with them. There's a reason that they came from Joliet, Hammond, Atlantic City, Missouri and Tunica. They expect this casino to draw the same people that any other casino does. The same demographics, etc. They aren't treating it any differently. They have already started reaching out to Total Rewards members who live in the region. I don't doubt for a fact that the Horseshoe will be wildly successful when it opens. The issue is when it has competition. It will have to step it up with the best amenities, comps, etc. in the market. As it stands now, I believe that the Horseshoe lacks amenities. The lack of a directly connected hotel, restaurants, nightclubs, etc. could very hurt them if another casino comes in the market. That was the mistake Greektown made. They figured people would rather eat in Greektown neighborhood restaurants than a buffet at Motor City. They were wrong. Gamblers preferred everything under one roof with top notch amenities. Like Horseshoe plans to do, Greektown allowed local business to be part of their comp program. That was a smart move but it still didn't make up for their lack of amenities compared to their rivals. Build a great spa, have nightclubs, lounges, because if Hard Rock one ups them in those categories, it could be tough sledding. I don't think the Cleveland market is any different than any other gaming market in this country, no matter where the casino is located. Keep it the best in market and you'll be number one. Its as simple as that.

I never said that its only old white women. But older demos is how casinos make their cash and that's true in every market and for every casino. The Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas is by far the hippest casino in town. It draws all the young demos with its top restaurants, clubs, entertainment, etc and it has the highest room rates in the city. It should be making money hand over fist. But it isn't. That's because older people are turned off by the casino and younger people don't gamble enough. Slots are where casinos make most of their cash and young people don't play them as much. That's a fact. It's a very delicate balance for casinos. Relying on young demos only is a fatal mistake. The Palms and Hard Rock certainly market to younger demos but even they do their share to attract older gamblers because they know that's how you make a profit.

Greektown is by far the most vibrant neighborhood in the city. And as a native Detroiter, I don't know anyone from the city who doesn't consider Greektown downtown. Heck, the people mover connects there. Its a five minute walk to Campus Martius which is the center of downtown and most of the county's offices are located in an office building that directly connects to the casino. Greektown was poorly created, no doubt about it, but much of Gilbert's strategy is the exact same one that Gatzaros and Pappas had when they originally proposed Greektown. If you go back and see what they said, their comments are almost exactly what Gilbert says today. The bottom line is this, suburbanites found it much easier to get off the freeway and go right into the other casinos than to fight the traffic and parking in Greektown. There's no reason a similar thing won't happen in Cleveland. The key is making Horseshoe itself the most attractive casino in the region. If it pulls that off, it doesn't have to worry about competition. Otherwise, it shouldn't just automatically believe that being in a vibrant neighborhood will make the key difference. Most gamblers don't think that way. MGM and Motor City have the better amenities but the hoods they are in are awful compared to Greektown. That's how they became dominant in the market. Horseshoe needs to do the same thing should Hard Rock come into the market.

That's not necessarily true. There have been casinos built in downtowns. Harrah's New Orleans pioneered that. Greektown in Detroit was the second. MGM in Detroit is on the edge of downtown, so I'll agree its not in the heart. There's also Seneca Buffalo and Rivers in Pittsburgh although they are more adjacent to downtown than right there. I suppose it depends on what your definition of the heart of downtown is. Greektown is probably the best comparison to what Gilbert is doing in Cleveland. I don't think the casino has either helped or hurt Greektown. It was always a vibrant neighborhood full of people. I will say this - Greektown Casino draws the worst demos of the three Detroit casinos. Its considered a low-roller casino even though its in an area that's very vibrant and full of city life. It should draw in young people, just because of its location but it hasn't happened. Instead, it draws poorer, older people and its revenues reflect that even though its in the best neighborhood of the three. MGM and Motor City has destroyed them with better restaurants, nightlife, etc. built right in. Greeektown thought the neighborhood could offer that. In the end, MGM won that battle with Motor City right behind it while Greektown ended up bankrupt. Harrah's NoLa also ended up bankrupt even though that seemed like a perfect plan on paper. Harrah's NoLa was hurt badly by competition in the burbs. If Hard Rock can have great nightlife, food, etc., it will be a top competitor to Horseshoe since Horseshoe is largely going for the Greektown strategy - relying on the neighborhood instead of the casino itself. Time will tell if that works out better in Cleveland than it did in Detroit.

Cleburger is right when it comes to demos for the most part. That's not to say that younger people don't gamble (you'll find them at the tables and in the poker room) but the bulk of players lean over 50. One advantage Horseshoe will have is that its linked to Total Rewards. That makes a big difference in a serious gamblers eyes. TR is the best loyalty club in the country and can be used all over. It's a great way to entice people to play there. Hard Rock lacks a top notch national players club. Another thing to remember is that Gilbert and Caesars certainly knew that more competition was probably on the way when they created the Horseshoe. Racinos were approved by Columbus before the Gilbert proposal even made it on the ballot. The difference is that the racinos have been stuck in legal battles. Caesars bought Thistledown well before they were part of the Gilbert plan so this process has been going on for years. Gilbert now owns a piece of Thistledown and whether it gets moved to Akron/Canton or not, that's still some more competition for downtown. That's the way the business goes and I don't think Gilbert ever thought that the Cleveland casino would be the only one in NEO. Not when racinos had already been planned and his business partner (Caesars) bought a horse racing track with the plan to operate a casino there.

NM signed their letter of intent in 1989 and construction was scheduled to begin in 1990. Unfortunately, retail and the economy started to fall apart right at that time. This article mentions the TC expansion being stopped - http://www.nytimes.com/1990/12/30/realestate/focus-cleveland-bucking-the-national-trend-on-shopping-malls.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm. Lending for shopping centers dried up after many retailers ran into financial problems. It even impacted NM. In 1991, NM had some very bad quarters. They lost quite a bit of money that year as the recession hit. It was a short issue as NM would go on to have a decent 1992 and open several new stores although their sales were down that year. In the end, the 90s recession pretty much killed that second phase. While NM came out of it, many specialty retailers did not and they were hesitant to expand. In 1994, Beachwood started their expansion and it was probably too late for TC to do anything drastic. Add in the addition of SouthPark and you had quite a bit of new retail coming to NEO all at the same time. I'm not sure the market could've handled more since the Galleria was starting to slip by then and TC had lost some key tenants.

I wasn't really calling Water Tower upscale. My point was that Water Tower is thriving, TC is not. If NM had ever gotten built at TC, that's what I think Tower City would've become. A successful mixed use development and many of the retailers that ended up at Beachwood would've ended up at TC. Water Tower has some higher end shops but is largely sans luxury because of Michigan Ave.

^ Completely agree that Bloomies is a much better fit for the region. I just think blaming FC is the easy way out. I truly think that the Cleveland can't support an ultra luxury mall. And don't say its because I have bad taste - I shop at Bloomies, Barney's, NM, and many of the luxury chains you've mentioned in various threads when I'm out of town. And as mentioned before Beachwood is nice, but its not a luxury mall. I think if the market could truly sustain luxury retail, these retailers would already be in the region, whether in the Beachwood area or someplace else. I find it hard to believe that GGP and its predecessor, Rouse haven't tried to lure those stores to Beachwood, yet the luxury chains have largely ignored it. Why is that? Do GGP and Rouse not know how to run upscale malls too (their record says otherwise) or is it the market? If they won't come to Beachwood, why would they go to Tower City or downtown? If Beachwood can't sustain it, I don't see how Tower City could. Like it or not, Cleveland isn't Chicago and TC isn't Water Tower Place.

I think that's an unfair statement. FC owns and manages major retail centers across the country. They do know how to do retail. Now, locally, TC might've had some bad management but the company as a whole is pretty successful when it comes to retail management. They have some fairly upscale malls and lifestyle centers in their portfolio that they do manage. I think things would've been completely different for TC had that second phase gotten built. I don't think it would've suffered that much of a decline as NM would've been a great regional draw. NM has always looked at Cleveland as a potentially strong market - Beachwood was home to the Galleries prototype for many years. When TC became largely just another mall, that's when the novelty wore off. There was little reason for a suburbanite to go there when it offered the same stores that the burbs did. Throw in retail bankruptcies and the place was doomed.

This post was the first I heard about B Spot. Newsnet5 is calling it "Breaking news" right now: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/chef-michael-symon-bringing-his-b-spot-restaurant-to-horseshoe-casino-clevelands-food-court I have some good sources :) In their defense, Horseshoe didn't officially announce it until yesterday in a press release. The PD and other media outlets ran the same story.

Buffet, Corky & Lenny's and The B Spot are the current confirmed tenants. Its not official but I know Rocco Whalen has had some discussions about opening a place in there.

Eton is adding a Free People and Allen Edmonds. Very excited about having a full AE store in Cle. Finely made shoes, made in America. Terrific craftsmanship. They only have around 30 stores so its a pretty unique store to add to the region.

The Strongsville store has to go to a re-zoning. Part of the property is zoned residential so they aren't breaking ground anytime soon. I seriously question whether Lakewood has enough room for a Market District. I suppose they could build a small one like they have in Shadyside but that's kinda a letdown if you compare it to the other Market Districts. It would be an awesome thing to have and a great lure for Lakewood. Wegmans previously looked at putting stores in NEO but decided against it. All their focus is currently on the East Coast. There are some similarities between Wegmans and Market District but they are pretty distinct from one another. Each has their own specialties and unique features. I was blown away by Market District and I used to do almost all of my shopping at Wegmans when I lived in PA.

I don't think that is a wholesale dismissal. I plan on visiting as I love aquariums and I hope GCA does well as its great for the city to finally have a marine facility. My complaint is that its overpriced compared to other similar venues and I'd rather support non-profits. The Family Pass sounds great but not when you compare it to other aquariums or zoos. Its a poor deal if you analyze it that way. I also think many tourists coming to our fair city will consider it a disappointment since they are charging so much for so little. Again, I'm comparing it to similar venues. The basic Shedd Aquarium admission is only $6 more than what GCA is charging. I find that bizarre and I believe tourists will feel like they are getting ripped off. Its easy to say you can't compare GCA to Shedd, Newport, etc, because of age and other factors but let's face it, most tourists ARE going to compare it that way. They want value for their money and I think GCA fails there. If you are going to build a small aquarium, price it that way, not as a mega marine center.

If you've read any of my posts on City-data, you'll know I've been pretty negative about the Aquarium. I love the location but that also causes all kinds of size issues. At this time, the place is just too small for its price. I have no problem talking about the value of their annual pass. Compared to much larger aquariums, Cleveland's is a ripoff. The Newport Aquarium, which is the closest "competitor" is cheaper even though its over twice the size. Not to mention the fact that tourists are going to have very little reason to buy annual passes since they don't offer any nationwide benefits unlike at other aquariums and zoos. I can get an annual pass with the Metroparks zoo for less and that includes discounts at zoos and aquariums across the country. The Pittsburgh Zoo's aquarium is about the same size as the Cleveland one but there, Im getting an entire zoo for a better price. I'd rather support non-profits at a lower price even if it involves some traveling. Just a personal opinion. I wish the GCA great success but it needs some help. And I have no doubt that should a phase 2 be completed, the prices will jump even more. Hearing about fake coral, etc. doesn't help my opinion of it. I'll certainly visit it every few years but I doubt I'll ever become a member like I am of the zoo.

The citi locations in Cleveland belong to citifinancial. This is the loan division of Citibank. MayDay is right. BofA is right at the 10% limit, literally. When they merged with Fleet, it put them right at the limit. In fact BofA is trying to limit their market share. They are done with retail banking acqusitions and MBNA is the company's future. They plan on devoting all of their future growth to the credit card division. It would be great to see them move operations downtown, but I don't think it would happen for years if at all. You would have to believe a large financial company like BofA wants to be in a high profile and a downtown location would fit that profile.

After reading the full report on this hatchery, it does sound like a good thing. It certainly is better than what I was expecting to see in that space. I was ready to see the next coffee /baked good store open its doors there - not that I'm against those of course.

It's funny isn't it how the region rallies around the Super Bowl but refuses to rally around a zoo or any arts or culture attraction for that matter. What does that tell you about SE Michigan? It's nice to see Metro Detroit is back to its old ways 360 hours after the "big game's" kickoff and after the leaders claimed they were going to work together after seeing how cooperation really does make the region a better place. The events surrounding the Super Bowl proved this. Evidently football is more important than arts, culture, education and recreation.

I have one major fear of abatements and that is the fact that people will get addicted to them. They will expect them. The attitude of "they got one, so we should get one too" can develop over time. I think that is why it would be very prudent to consider cutting the abatements length. It is a great draw to bring people into the city and it has certainly encouraged many of the projects that are on the board today. I am not against incentives but at the same time, people will be greedy and look for them even when the market doesn't need them anymore. It can turn into a vicious cycle and sink the budget. Just look at how every business demands incentives no matter where they are planning to move or they use them as threats against a city. That same logic can be extended to residential properties as well. When the time comes, will the residents support dropping the abatements? Time will tell I guess but I doubt future residents would support it no matter what residential demand is like in 10- 20 years.

After reading this little blurb, I'm not sure the "czar" even knows what is going on with this! It just sounds bizarre and at least the way that this article is written, it leaves you with the thought that this will lead to nothing. I'm hopeful they didn't know the details yet.

The Detroit Zoo is owned by the City of Detroit but is actually located on the border of Royal Oak and Huntington Woods in Southern Oakland County. The city also owns several golf courses in the burbs along with the zoo itself. Geographically speaking, the zoo is located right off of I-696 on Woodward Ave, just west of I-75. No counties or cities (besides Detroit) are involved with supporting the zoo besides some state funding. The city is out of money and the Zoological Society wanted to take over all of the operations. The city council voted no since they still would have been paying up to $1 million for insurance, security and some other factors. This has been an issue for several years and it goes back to when the city closed the zoo on Belle Isle. The Society tried to take over then but were voted down then as well.

That is a real shame since it certainly served a niche for the Square. And the times I have been in there with the other half, the Loft always seemed busy. Hopefully, they can snag another womens store to fill their niche and to keep attracting the daytime shoppers.