DEPACincy

Correct, but I think Midwestern cities shouldn't be our model. We definitely don't want to model our downtown after Indy. Kansas City is an interesting one because they do have some ridiculously wide downtown streets but they also have some pretty narrow streets right downtown too. We've converted every east-west street downtown to a multi-lane, one way feeder to the highway. That's not a recipe for a strong residential downtown.

come on. Yea, it's definitely not true. There are other people investing in the CBD right now. There was an article in the Business Courier today about buildings being redeveloped along Fourth Street. there are several projects starting to happen on Seventh as well. But it has definitely come slower than in OTR. One reason I think this is the case is because of the streets. OTR has narrow streets and trees. All the main streets in the CBD have been blown up into highways. No one wants to live on a highway, even if they are in a high rise. Road diets throughout the CBD, adding bike lanes and tree lawns, would go a long way toward spurring more investment. The streets in OTR are smaller then CBD because it's not downtown. Downtowns streets are very standard for downtowns throughout the country. I walk to and from work in downtown everyday and only 2nd and 3rd along with Central are comparable to highways. Everything inbetween isn't anything close to a highway, cars can barely get over 30 mph before then inevitably hit a red light. I wouldn't call them standard. The desirable neighborhoods in the downtowns of cities throughout the country all have narrower streets. Go to downtown Boston or Philly and see that narrow streets can support many times the population that you have in Cincy. I live downtown and I can tell you that many more than just 2nd and 3rd are like highways. Seventh, Fifth east of Fountain Square, Ninth, parts of Race and Elm all feel like highways. There is no need for more than two or three lanes in one direction on a downtown street. Anything after that does nothing to increase capacity and just makes the street more unsafe as people switch lanes more and have to get all the way over to turn. And barely over 30 mph is really fast for a downtown street with so many lights. We should narrow the streets and time the lights to encourage people to travel no faster than 20 mph. They'll get to where they're going just as fast, burn less gas, and stop and start less. There's lots of research on this topic out there.

This type of comment also serves as an example of what I'm talking about when I say "low road." It's something I'd expect in the Trump thread, but you guys seem to have been completely overcome by this type of hateful divisiveness. I've never voted a straight ticket before, but if this type of rhetoric is going to become the norm it might drive we towards that. Really? This is so maddening. Trump and the GOP have been taking the "low road" from square one. Trump started all the devisiveness and keeps stirring it up every chance he gets. Republicans invented the concept of calling people snowflakes and asking them if they need a safe space. But it's liberals that are overcome by hatefulness? Please.

Philadelphia instituted a property tax overhaul that they call the Actual Value Initiative. Among other things, it transferred much of the taxable value of a property from the improvements to the underlying land. Not a true land value tax, but working toward that. It was supposed to make sitting on vacant and underutilized properties less appealing, especially downtown and in other high demand neighborhoods. It's only been a few years so I'm not sure there's a lot of data to show whether or not it has had an effect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_value_tax

come on. Yea, it's definitely not true. There are other people investing in the CBD right now. There was an article in the Business Courier today about buildings being redeveloped along Fourth Street. there are several projects starting to happen on Seventh as well. But it has definitely come slower than in OTR. One reason I think this is the case is because of the streets. OTR has narrow streets and trees. All the main streets in the CBD have been blown up into highways. No one wants to live on a highway, even if they are in a high rise. Road diets throughout the CBD, adding bike lanes and tree lawns, would go a long way toward spurring more investment.

It's hard to park in Philly, NYC, Boston, DC, San Fran, etc. It's very easy to park in Detroit, Buffalo, and Youngstown. Which would you rather be? When I moved here I was shocked how easy it is to park downtown, and I'm equally shocked how much people complain when they can't park right in front of their destination. I'd much rather walk a few blocks if it means unsightly and unproductive surface lots can be redeveloped into something useful.

Proposed Ohio tax credit would target 'transformational' mixed-use developments https://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2018/07/12/proposedohio-tax-credit-would-target.html

Adding cheese to things is the Cincinnati way (pun intended).

It's just hard to fit parking in an urban environment so people end up using valuable space for parking. It also makes housing less affordable, adding thousands of dollars to the cost of development that gets passed on to consumers.

Eh, I don't really buy it. I'm an Ohio alum. I have many UC friends. They like(d) binge drinking just as much as OU kids, they just weren't as good at it ;)

Another version of this, which includes a base map and has every single precinct in the country: https://decisiondeskhq.com/data-dives/creating-a-national-precinct-map/

It depends where you are. In areas very near the East River it feels like it has been changing rapidly, but farther into the borough and things still feel "Brooklyn-y". Fulton St in Bed-Stuy: https://goo.gl/maps/sSJSgvyuvku Park Slope: https://goo.gl/maps/DgUToJNJJRn Crown Heights: https://goo.gl/maps/A4fhTSsiKvq Myrtle Avenue in Bushwick: https://goo.gl/maps/SUeVfaWf3Nz

I think everybody actually agrees here. You're just talking around each other. The 3C's are undoubtedly net givers to the state in terms of tax dollars and GDP. Many studies have confirmed that urban areas subsidize rural areas, which need more infrastructure to support the same number of people. OSU benefits the entire state, but disproportionately benefits Columbus, just like UC benefits Cincinnati more and without OU Southeast Ohio would be in even worse shape. Without state government Columbus would not be what it is today, just like Cleveland and Cincy wouldn't be what they are today without the lake or the river. None of those things are things that we control. I'm pretty sure no one can deny that? Some states have one big city. We have three. We all benefit when they do well.

Yea, that was the confusion on everyone's part I think. I posted percentage point changes and jonoh81 posted percent change. That's why I said they tell the same story, just in a different way.

Yeah, I was going to mention that the 1-year estimates are considered the least reliable of the 2. This is a fair point. It does jump around a bit, and of course it has a higher MOE than the 5-Year Estimates. But I checked those and they show the same trend, just smoother. I went ahead and used the 1-Year because of the lag that is inherent in the 5-Year data.

I used Educational Attainment 1-year for metros and got different numbers. 2013-2016 High School or Less Cincinnati: -2.2% Cleveland: -2.4% Columbus: -0.6% Some College/Associates Degree Cincinnati: +2.1% Cleveland: +2.7% Columbus: +4.5% Bachelors Cincinnati: +8.2% Cleveland: +0.4% Columbus: +13.1% Graduate/Professional Degree Cincinnati: +10.2% Columbus: +10.3% Cleveland: +5.3% All College Degrees Cincinnati: +6.6% Cleveland: +3.4% Columbus: +12.4% And just 25-34 Education Attainment in 2016, Bachelors or Higher Total % Cincinnati: 39.0% Cleveland: 35.7% Columbus: 40.6% And change 2013-2016 Cincinnati: +12.7% Cleveland: -2.7% Columbus: +9.2% Not sure why we have different numbers. We don't have different numbers. You just calculated percentage change and I gave absolute change in percentages. It shows the same thing, just in a different way. EDIT: See the bolded sections. They're both the same.

I appreciate the history you provided in your other post. One nitpicky thing I'd point out is that it's a little off to say 5/3 and Huntington are just "nice" banks but Key is a big player. 5/3 is the 24th largest bank in the US, Huntington is 35th. Key comes in right between them at 30th. In 2018, 5/3 is top dog in Ohio.

Can you post a link to this data? Thanks! https://factfinder.census.gov/faces/tableservices/jsf/pages/productview.xhtml?fpt=table

What is this assertion based on? On the financial side, Fifth Third is the largest bank in the midwest and one of the largest in the country. Cincy also has Cincinnati Financial, Western & Southern, and American Financial Group in the Fortune 500. On the eds side, UC and OSU are much larger, and always have been, than anything in Cleveland. I'd say Cleveland wins on the meds side of things with Cleveland Clinic, which is an absolute behemoth. But it should be noted that Cardinal Health is the largest company in Ohio by revenue.

Yep, those are metro area numbers. Sorry I didn't specify.

So one way I can think of comparing is looking at the percentage of folks with a college degree or better in each of the 3C's and seeing how that has changed over time. What are the relative trends? So for 2016 we have: Cleveland 30.3% Cincinnati 33.1% Columbus 36% From 2013: Cleveland 29.8% Cincinnati 31.2% Columbus 33.7% Change from 2013 to 2017: Cleveland +0.5% Cincinnati +1.9% Columbus +2.3% So this is limited data but it's pretty obvious that in the past few years Columbus is doing the best in growing it's college educated population, as a percentage of total metro population. Another way to look at this is to single out just young folks. So just looking at the 25 to 34 year cohort: 2016: Cleveland 35.7% Cincinnati 39% Columbus 40.6% 2013: Cleveland 37.6% Cincinnati 35.9% Columbus 39.8% Change from 2013 to 2017: Cleveland -1.9% Cincinnati +3.1% Columbus +0.8% This one is a big surprise to me. Cincinnati seems to have a clear edge among this cohort. But things look even worse for Cleveland. Based on this data I'd say that Cleveland is definitely losing young college-educated folks, while Columbus and Cincinnati are gaining them. Among college graduates as a whole all of the 3C's are seeing an increase, but Cleveland is definitely lagging behind the other two. EDIT: I should note that I chose 2016 and 2013 because that is what is available on the Census Bureau's American Fact Finder website. 2016 is the latest data and it only goes back to 2013. This is from the Census 1-Year Estimates program.

And Pataskala, or Etna to be more specific. There are a ton of warehouse jobs there too with Amazon and various others. Columbus isn't getting Clevelands hip young professionals. Our blue collar workers are moving to fill your warehouse and factory jobs. There's a lot of population and migration data out there that supports this. I'll post as soon as I can find it. Hmmm, not sure about that first simply based on my personal experiences, but if you have data I would love to see it. OSU is full of Clevelanders, many of whom stay in Columbus after graduation. Logically speaking, I don't buy the idea that people who work in warehouses are moving from Cleveland to Columbus for a new warehouse job. It's hard enough to move 20 minutes to the suburb next door, let alone move two and a half hours down 71 for a new warehouse job. Again, this is solely based on my experience and using logic, but if you can find that data I would love to see it. Your personal experience and use of "logic" couldn't possibly know or understand the intricacies of intra-county people/demographic migration. Impossible. Relax there sport, I understand that. That is why I was asking for your data. It doesn't make sense to me for the reasons I laid out, and as a result I want to see the data. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm simply saying I want to see the data to prove you are right. Until then, all I have is my personal experience and my logic. The irony of someone making an assertion without data and then calling you out for questioning it based on the fact that you didn't give any data. I, too, would like to see the data. Most of my college friends were from the Cleveland area and only one of them ended up back there. Multiple are in Columbus now. It's anecdotal, but until I see data otherwise it's all I got. This isn't a knock on Cleveland either. I love Cleveland and would love to see it retain more college grads and even attract people from around the country. I do think it suffers, though, in that it doesn't have a major state university. Lots of folks from all over Ohio go to OU and OSU and then end up in Columbus because of proximity and networking. Over half of UC grads stay in Cincy for the same reason. CSU just doesn't have the same pull across the state.

I'll add that college grads from OU, Kent, Akron, and BGSU who used to end up in Cleveland in large numbers are increasingly ending up in Columbus. There are more jobs that college grads are looking for there, the weather is better, and it's perceived as being a more hip city. Add Miami to this list. In my experience, at least in the finance and business world, Columbus companies recruit Miami just as hard as they recruit OSU and OU. Absolutely a lot of Miami grads in Columbus, but those folks never really had a huge presence in Cleveland. Miami grads cluster in Cincy, Cbus, and Chicago.

There are some "hip" advancements in agriculture and state-level government operations, I guess. I'll agree that Columbus has had more job growth than Cleveland in recent years, but I've never heard of Columbus, OH being perceived by anyone as a 'hip' city, especially when compared to Cleveland. If I had to rank the 3C's--it would be CLE, Cinci, Columbus. I love Cincy and Cleveland both, especially Cincy (I live here after all). But among my peer group (late 20s, early 30s) Columbus is definitely seen as the most hip of the three, hands down. It's really not even close. It's a hot destination for young professionals from all over the Midwest and even the east coast. When I lived on the east coast and said I was from Ohio I often heard people saying they wanted to check out Columbus because they've heard good things. That was never the case with Cincy or Cleveland unfortunately. The old "cow town" reputation of Cbus is pretty unknown among people under 35 I'd say.

I'll add that college grads from OU, Kent, Akron, and BGSU who used to end up in Cleveland in large numbers are increasingly ending up in Columbus. There are more jobs that college grads are looking for there, the weather is better, and it's perceived as being a more hip city.