Redbeard1969

Mostly it's going to be built at the location selected because there's not much land left that they can use on the Metro Campus, and it would then be nearly adjacent to the theater/arts building. I think the building will consist of studio space (for the Recording Arts program), the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame archives/library, some performance space, and office space for the Performing Arts division. It's not going to be a big building, and architecturally, it will fit in with the rest of the campus, bland as it is, though it'll also have a notable nod to the Rock Hall, too.

well, at the moment, all that has happened is that the Sunoco there has been converted to a GetGo. No demolition or anything major, just a conversion. As for the old Giant Eagle store, I've heard that the Rego family still owns the property and building, so Giant Eagle has nothing to do with it. Hopefully something will happen to the old store, perhaps demolition and replacement with new retail or a restaurant. I'd hate to see the building sit empty for months and months into the future.

Looks like the Rosewood project is going great guns, too ... the building looks nearly buttoned-up, and soon will be finished. I heard the new YMCA opens up in a couple of weeks, too. Hey, nothing against Ohio City or Tremont, two of Cleveland's most interesting neighborhoods, but Lakewood's a great place. Move here, get good schools (if you have a family or are starting one, like me), nice small yards (less to cut and rake), a thoroughly walkable community, and close to everything. But that's my opinion, Florida Guy ... and I live in Lakewood, so consider the source. But I used to live in Cleveland Heights, Euclid, and Mentor, and flopped a bit in Tremont back in the early 1990s when it wasn't as "hip" a place as it is now (sadly, the house we were renting sold a at the time for $13,000 ... and we didn't have the money to buy it, so we moved out)... so I've been around Cleveland, and after looking around and assessing where I thought would be best to live (and it had to be fairly close to my downtown job), Lakewood won out.

Here's some info from the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History ... perhaps not as large a scope as Wikipedia, but still the first and best reference for anyone interested in Cleveland's history! OHIO CITY (CITY OF OHIO), one of Cleveland's older neighborhoods, was originally part of Brooklyn Twp., founded in 1818. Historic borders of the city were: Lake Erie on the north; the CUYAHOGA RIVER on the east; Walworth Ave. and W. 44th St. on the south; and W. 65th St. on the west. On 3 Mar. 1836, 2 days before Cleveland's incorporation, the City of Ohio became an independent municipality; it remained so until 5 June 1854, when it was annexed to Cleveland. Although Cleveland had nearly 6,000 people to Ohio City's 2,000, the two cities became fierce competitors, especially in the area of commerce. This rivalry was best demonstrated in 1837, when Ohio City residents sought, violently, to stop the use of Cleveland's new COLUMBUS STREET BRIDGE, which siphoned off commercial traffic to Cleveland before it could reach Ohio City's mercantile district. Among the independent city's 11 mayors were JOSIAH BARBER†, NORMAN C. BALDWIN†, RICHARD LORD†, THOS. BURNHAM†, and WM. B. CASTLE†. The city's population grew from approx. 2,400 in the 1830s to 4,253 in 1850. Upon annexation, Ohio City became wards 8, 9, 10, and 11 of Cleveland. After annexation, Ohio City became known as the near west side. A number of ethnic groups, including GERMANS, HUNGARIANS, and IRISH, lived in the area in the late 19th century. One of its focal points has been the WEST SIDE MARKET, which was built by 1912 on the site that Josiah Barber and Richard Lord deeded to the city on the condition it be kept a marketplace. Following World War II, the area entered a period of decline. In 1968 the Ohio City Redevelopment Assn. was chartered to stem the tide of neglect in the historic neighborhood and to strengthen a nascent trend of restoration that had begun in the early 1960s. From 1963-78, over 100 structures were restored or redeveloped, including ST. IGNATIUS HIGH SCHOOL and the Carnegie Branch of the CLEVELAND PUBLIC LIBRARY, as well as numerous private residences. As older structures were refurbished and occupied by upper-middle-class individuals and families, the resultant displacement of poorer groups led to charges of gentrification. By this time Ohio City was home to over 15 ethnic groups representing 25,000 people in a 4.5 sq. mi. area. Among the newer immigrant and migrant groups were Hispanic Americans and Asian Americans. As the Ohio City Development Corp. succeeded earlier redevelopment groups in 1992, the neighborhood was further revitalized by the construction of new townhouses on Fulton Rd. and the Market Sq. Retail Ctr. opposite the West Side Market at W. 25th St. and Lorain Ave.

Actually, back in the early 20th century, there was a plan to cut a straighter path through the river, to make it easier for the ore carriers to head to the mills. One plan I saw (a map at the Cleveland Press Collection) even showed a cut right through the Scranton Peninsula. Never happened though; why? Because the steel mills vetoed it. They wanted a straighter shipping channel, but not one that cut off their own land. And Upson Nut was a pretty big company back in the day, and no city father would have annoyed them, since the city folks were doing everything they could to lure companies to set up in Cleveland. But that was then ... it might be something to revisit now, to create an island in the middle of the river, and put some desireable housing on it.

It would be nice, but I'm pretty sure it's wishful thinking. Trader Joe's already has two locations in Cleveland; why would they put on only 15 minutes from another one? I'd think that if they wanted to put another one in the Cleveland market, they'd head down I-77 or I-71 and put it in Strongsville, Brecksville, or Medina. As much as I'd like for this to be true, I have a feeling it's not. Now, how about a nice bookstore at Rockport?

I agree that retaining some manufacturing in America is crucial; however, manufacturing has changed a great deal. Instead of giant plants and complexes where things are made, nowadays most manufacturing is actually done in small shops and facilities (usually where individual components and subassemblies are made), and then if there is a big plant, it's where everything is finally assembled. So Cleveland can still be a major manufacturing center, but the days of huge complexes like TRW, White Motors, Warner and Swasey, Cleveland Twist Drill, National Acme, Republic Steel, et al, are over. That's just the way it is. And while steel is still important, no one's building the very large integrated steelworks complex any more. The only new steel mills in America have been minimills, which are extremely compact. And most of those have been built in more labor-friendly (i.e., places where organized labor isn't as strong as it is in the old Rust Belt) areas than in traditional steel centers. This is why Indiana's the biggest steel-producing state in the US. Not just for the giant mills on the northern shore of Indiana around Gary, but for the numerous minimills like Nucor in Crawfordsville. Cleveland's been lucky to still retain Mittal's Cleveland Works (nee ISG, LTV, Republic, Corrigan McKinney), which is an infinitely leaner and meaner operation than 50 years ago. Nowadays, a few thousand can outproduce the decades when tens of thousands worked there. It's almost like the passing of an era, with old industrial Cleveland making way for something new and unknown, but these things happen. Before the steel mills, the Cuyahoga valley was all farm and orchard ... and undoubtedly when the steel mills went up in the 1910s, many people mourned the loss of those farms and orchards, much like people today are mourning the loss of the mills. And in a few generations, Steelyard Commons will be plowed under for something else, and people will mourn it. It's a neverending chain. And while I've not lived in Tremont (though I do remember the days back in grad school when my buddy lived there in a house that sold for $13,000), I do agree that SYC is a boon to the area, because it finally gives the folks who live around there nearby shopping options. They don't have to waste the gas or time to haul out to the suburbs now for their shopping, which is a plus. And I think the shopping center may do some revitalizing of the area. Look at the "Waterfront" shopping center in Pittsburgh, built atop what was once the mighty Homestead Works of US Steel. It's kinda bland, as far as shopping goes (it's a mix between a strip shopping center and a faux-neighborhood "lifestyle center," a la Crocker/Legacy), but last time I went by, the place was packed. And it is exactly what an economically-depressed area like the boroughs of Homestead and Munhall need. The mills aren't going to come back; if there's a chance to redevelop the property into something that will generate revenue, then it should be pursued. Yes, the wages in retail aren't like the wages in the steel industry; but then again, the steel industry only has a fraction of the employees that it once did, so those jobs are few and far between. That ship has sailed. Let's see what's on the horizon. That said, I'm also glad for the VERY small museum there (except that it should be a HELL OF A LOT BIGGER), because at least it will introduce some folks to the industrial heritage of the site, and hopefully they'll learn about the history and importance of the steel industry to Cleveland's development and growth. There's a hell of a lot of us in this city today who are here because our ancestors came here to work in the mills. I just wish Schneider had saved a bigger building than a little tiny grease house (that's what the building was originally used for, not offices), so that the exhibit could be bigger than a six hundred square feet (I heard it's actually smaller than that). There's plenty of films, photos, and artifacts available to make a really good exhibit ... but not enough space in that little shack.

It's a great piece of land, but I wonder how environmentally clean it is; Republic Steel had a rather large factory on that site (the Upson Nut Works), from about the late 1800s into the 1950s/1960s. The whole peninsula was crammed with foundries and factories for decades. Does anyone know if it's ever been cleaned up? Is it "clean" enough for housing?

no, if anything, the site down there is looking more like it did originally. I've seen pictures of the site as Otis Steel, the original mill on that particular site, was being built. There were just some farms down there, and then a mill was plopped on the site. I do feel bad that times have changed and that the industry is but a small piece of what it once was, but that's technological process; less workers are making more product, and better product. Newer mills are built in better locations, either strategically better (better sited for transportation of raw materials and finished goods), or economically better (in more labor-friendly areas, or states with better economic incentives, etc.). And no one's building new integrated steel mills anymore, just minimills. While few have a fondness for the industry, I'm from a steel family, and have always admired the mills and the folks who work in them, but I'm also enough of a historian to know that change is inevitable; the big mills like Otis and US Steel, and others actually replaced smaller iron and steel mills (such as the famed Cleveland Rolling Mills, which were once in Cleveland's Slavic Village), and now the cycle is continuing. Yes, it's sad to see something that impressive being torn down, and wishing that it wasn't, but don't forget, that something impressive replaced something else ... and someday down the road, Steelyard Commons will be bulldozed for something else ... and that cycle will continue. Nothing will ever replace the awe and majestic might that a steel mill can convey, but if you want to see something like that nowadays, head to Brazil, Eastern Europe, or China. We've become a nation of workers who sit in cubicles inside air-conditioned office buildings, generating and reading reports and doing things that we can't even explain to anyone when they ask us what we do for a living. It's progress ... isn't it?

I'd have to issue a vote against the Metropolitan Cafe ... it's nice inside, and the food isn't bad, but it is NOISY to the extreme. When I go out to eat, especially for an intimate dinner, I don't want to have to yell across the table, but you often have to at the Metropolitan Cafe. I don't know why there's such a mania for restaurants that have high ceilings, play music too loud, and are generally too noisy ... whatever happened to quiet little intimate places??

You probably wouldn't have seen too much, because of the smoke and the smog from the factories in the valley!

It's interesting though, that for a project of this scale and potential to really change downtown Cleveland a great deal ... the local media is pretty much downplaying it. But that's true of all these projects that we're talking about. Perhaps it's that they're taking the cynical view that it "ain't gonna happen, so why talk about it?" but I'm hoping that if Stark can land some major retailers that hopefully there will be a buzz growing about this and other projects, and not just from us on this board!

I second the point that this project would not be the biggest construction project ever in Cleveland. That has to go to the Cleveland Union Terminal (aka, the Terminal Tower). Not only the monetary amount, but also the sheer scale. According to the Encyclopedia of Cleveland History, over 1,000 buildings (homes, churches, commercial buildings) were demolished to create the terminal complex. At the CSU library, there's some amazing archives that show the area before the terminal complex was built, and it really allows you to see how the development literally changed the face of the city. Stark's development, while grand in scale, is not going to be as massive as the terminal complex was. Check out the Cleveland Union Terminal collection at CSU ... http://www.clevelandmemory.org/cut-coll/

In the Lakewood Observer, there's several drawings, and they do show that off Sloane, there will be a parking lot; probably not a lot of visible building, other than the top-most layer of townhouses. Interestingly enough, it looks like the bulk of the buildings will actually be below the rather ugly high-rise apartment building that overlooks the valley. So while this will be a nice development for those who live in it, and will look interesting from the other side of the river, I don't think it's going to beautify Sloane Avenue that much. I'm hopeful for collateral development to grow from this, but seeing as a new Dollar General ultra-discount store just opened up on Sloane, it probably won't happen anytime soon. Or soon enough! Still, I'm glad to see some more development. If this gets accomplished, add it to Rockport, Rosewood, the new Library, the new YMCA, the new Sherwin-Williams and Walgreen's stores, and the renovation and rebuilding of the schools. That's a LOT of development going on in essentially a pretty small suburb!

I'm sorry, I just think it's pie-in-the-sky to get those types of activities for a domed-over Cleveland Browns Stadium, and if anyone thinks that the revenue from those "hoped for" events and activities will offset the massive costs of roofing over the stadium (and again, those costs WILL go up as more feasibility and engineering studies/plans are drawn up), I don't think that the hard numbers bear it out. Sure, go ahead and do the studies (who pays for them?) and see what comes up, but it just doesn't seem that Indianapolis, Minneapolis and Detroit really maximize the use of their domed stadiums, and at least according to the article above, don't see much value in hosting the Super Bowl, other than it makes everyone feel good, like their city is a major deal. And I really have to wonder ... is covering the stadium and trying to get a Super Bowl really worth the cost, because in the end, it's more about civic self-esteem than about really increasing the quality of life in the city or increasing economic viability.

The description "gymnasium benches" is extremely appropriate when viewing the photograph. Still, as ugly and uninspired as it is (it does kind of look like something out of "Star Wars" or "Star Trek"), it will spruce up the Sloane Avenue area, which needs a bit of sprucing up. And if there's some collateral development ... new restaurants or shops, so much the better for the tax base and property values. Especially since I live a few blocks away, woo-hoo!

speaking of logistics, if you want to use a covered stadium as a convention center, then you need a LOT of loading docks. Take for example, a show like the Auto Show ... all those displays come in, and are set up in a matter of days (and here I speak from experience, because I've worked for an organization that had a display at the autoshow, so I've been there during load-in and take-out), and it goes smoothly because there are a ton of loading docks at the IX Center. And that's key because these shows are on a tight schedule; the day after the Auto Show, all the displays are down, and are getting loaded onto trucks to move on to the next city, while cleanup crews are already doing work, and some items are coming in for the following show. The current convention center has a single driveway that all the trucks have to go down, and then in many cases, you've got to unload some trucks by hand or with forklifts, because there's just not enough loading docks. How many does the stadium have? You'd have to add the expense of reconfiguring the place to allow trade shows to load all their stuff into the stadium on very tight schedules. Logistically, it requires not only the open space of the IX Center floor (or in this case, the stadium "floor" ... by the way, the stadium is grass ... so do we have to make it artificial turf or do we have special grass trays that can be rolled in and out to switch it from game to trade show?), but the flexibility for loading and moving the trade show equipment, and the necessary internal workshops and storage for carpeting, chairs/tables, show booths, etc. Where is the storage at the Stadium for anything but the Browns equipment? And don't forget, the IX Center also has a ballroom for social events, and meeting room space for smaller groups, and the building can be divided up with curtains so you can have several smaller shows going on at the same time. And there's a lot of parking right there, and easy access to the freeway. Cleveland Stadium has ... well, a lot of bathrooms, hotdog/hamburger stands (though who wants to trek up from the floor to the upper reaches of the stadium to get a hot dog?), and not a lot of other flex space, though I guess some of the big bars in the building could be turned into classroom/meeting space. There is the Muni Lot right there for parking, so that's a plus. I'm sounding like I'm not thinking outside the box ... but this is a case where it sounds EASY to make the stadium a convention-center type of space, but to actually utilize it thusly will require a lot more than just a big roof over the building. There has to be an actual infrastructure in place to utilize the space as convention/trade-show space. And I really don't believe Corna when he says this can be built without any taxpayer money. Because this is going to be way more expensive than he predicts (how many big projects like this actually come in on budget or under budget? They always go over), and what happens if the money runs out half way? The city would probably have to come in and bail it out. Let's see some serious studies ... would a covered stadium generate enough revenue to make it worthwhile to incur this massive cost? Study the covered stadiums in Detroit, in Minneapolis and Indianapolis. Are they hosting enough revenue-generating events? Sure, a domed stadium would look cool ... would it bring anyone to Cleveland? Would it convince major trade shows to leave Chicago (another cold-weather city, yet they remade Soldier Field without a dome ... because they have the big McCormack Place convention center to handle any-sized event) or Las Vegas to come to Cleveland? Hey, I'm a lifelong Clevelander and Browns fan, but I think a domed stadium is just a big white elephant. Let's keep adding apartments downtown, and find ways to rebuild the city that don't involve a few key destinations, but that make the WHOLE city a better and more attractive place.

Architecture is very subjective ... frankly, one person will look at the tower and say it's a work of genius. Another will say it's garbage. I lean towards thinking the building is pretty ugly. Breuer may have been a good architect (revered as a genius by modernists), but skyscrapers were not his speciality. So is a flawed work by a good architect worth saving? And why are buildings by "big name" architects more important than those by local or not-well-known architects? If the exact same building was designed by some schmuck from Cleveland, would Litt be calling for it to be saved? NOPE. He'd urge that it be taken down and replaced with some abstract swoopy thing designed by some big-name architect from Europe. And I think the jury's still out about Breuer ... some architectural critics think he's a genius, others think he was overrated ... he may have been part of the Bauhaus, but most people think only of Mies or Walter Gropius when they think of the Bauhaus, not Breuer.

ah yes, the old "look at how much revenue a (insert project here ... like a domed stadium) would generate" idea. Hey, the stadium is currently there, how much revenue HAS it generated since it was built? Outside of Browns' games, I rarely see it used. I could see an argument that covering it will increase its usage, but will it really? What would go on in a covered stadium? Trade shows? Concerts? Most trade organizations like the IX Center because there's a huge amount of loading docks for their displays, and it's adjacent to the airport, so it's easy to fly in people. Concerts ... we already have the Q and the Wolstein Center. How many bands would fill a domed stadium anyway? Spending $90 million bucks just to hopefully get a Super Bowl is not a good investment, no matter how you look at it. The Super Bowl isn't going to make this a good return. Besides, they only periodically have a Super Bowl in a northern city; they generally prefer a warm-weather place in the south or west. So $90 million would net us one or two Super Bowls at the most. Frankly, I'd rather see the money go to fix schools, spruce up neighborhoods, increase public transit, and help people in need. This is just another attempt at some civic self-esteem improvement, though fortunately it's not being spearheaded by the Mayor, who probably also thinks the money would be better invested in Cleveland's neighborhoods.

I'm unsure about the building being used as "Cleveland University," which was only in existence for 2 years, and only one year actually in Tremont (then called "University Heights" because of the college) Perhaps the redbrick house may have been part of that, but that's a pretty substantial building for that era and location. Anyone know for certain? It is good to see the project finally moving ... I had heard rumors before of developers wanting to turn the building into an entertainment complex, but I think apartments is the best way to go for Tremont.

well, it's at least more exciting than the construction of the new parking lot at Donato's Pizza.

Yeah, that's a key question ... all of these projects include some sort of retail, and how will they all work. Again, I look at Chicago as a model. Because the population downtown is high enough, there's a market for a lot of retail downtown, and those retailers are usually fairly specialized and unique enough to also attract surburbanites. Hopefully, the developers of these projects in Cleveland will also try to not just get retail for retail sake, but rather find specialized retail to fit into their housing projects ... to add convenience stores, hardware, home furnishings, clothes, restaurants (for all price ranges, from fast-food to fancy), and "social" retailers like bookstores and coffeeshops. And hopefully rents will be structured as well to allow local entrepreneurs to try their hand and fulfilling the new residents' needs. Because one of the key aspects of these neighborhoods is walkability ... so while Steelyard Commons is nearby, there's probably not too many people who will walk there from the Flats East Bank or "Budapest" in the Warehouse District. And there may be plenty of people living in those neighborhoods who will be going carless. So the market may be there to support a lot of retail ... providing it's the right sort of retail!

And finally, from The Lakewood Observer (okay, I'm excited about this project, since I live just a few streets away ... this is SUCH an improvement over the car lot that was there ... add this to the new YMCA building, and our neighborhood's gettin' kinda classy!): Rosewood Place Groundbreaking by Stan Austin Groundbreaking For Rosewood Place By Stan Austin---Lakewood Observer Reporter It seems like Lakewood is becoming ground zero for new construction in Northeast Ohio. The rain held up and the sun came out on Friday morning as Mayor Thomas George, Council President Robert Seelie, and developer Thomas Barrett performed the ceremonial groundbreaking for Rosewood Place at the corner of Rosewood and Detroit Avenues. This project will be a combination of retail and residential units and will turn a vacant used car lot into a sophisticated urban living experience. Barrett of North Coast Capital Partners described a setting where one could dine nearby, go for a workout at a brand new YMCA, select a book from a newly expanded Lakewood Public Library or just sit on a balcony and enjoy the view. He called it the convenience of an urban setting with the comfort of a suburb. Mayor George gave some significant statistics. The property is currently valued at $266,700 and will have a projected value of $3,000,025. Seven per cent of the project will be financed with public funds and there will be a 100% tax abatement for two years declining to 50% for years three to five. George emphasized that the financial risk to the city is minimal. “This represents a change of philosophy from the past” George said. The attitude that “we are so desperate that we have to give anything” has changed where we will now do new projects and minimize the city’s risk. The D-A-S Construction Company will have the basic building completed in 51/2 months. Visit www.rosewoodplace.com for a view of the building and its units.

And this was on WEWS-TV5's website: Lakewood Breaks Ground On Retail, Residential Development Development Will Have Stores, Offices, Townhouses POSTED: 4:39 pm EDT April 21, 2006 LAKEWOOD, Ohio -- Groundbreaking took place Friday in Lakewood for a new development that will bring together retail, offices and stylish apartments. Mayor Tom George presided over the event. He and other city leaders are excited to announce the start of construction on Rosewood Place, located at the intersection of Rosewood and Detroit avenues. The first floor will be stores and offices. The townhouses above will have a second-story terrace and private parking.

Saw this in Crain's Cleveland Business this week (haven't seen dirt fly yet, but I'm optimistic!): Rosewood Place work blooms in Lakewood By SHANNON MORTLAND 6:00 am, April 24, 2006 Construction began last Friday on the $3 million Rosewood Place development in Lakewood. The 29,000-square-foot mixed-use project will consist of retail space and 11, two-story townhomes on land once occupied by a used car lot and two-family home.