Cleveland Trust

I’ll shift the burden of proof to you. Can you argue facts and provide data on why we should keep Burke open? I can’t find one reason. All I see are people here saying, “because we need to focus on infill downtown. We need to lure Amazon. Jimmy Hassan flys out of town from Burke. It’s too hard because the FAA... And on and on.” Talk about annoying. If you guys just want to insult me and complain about discussions you don’t like, go ahead. There is a reason why the discussion around Burke is so opaque and nothing gets done and it has nothing to do with good economics. It is an open secret. Read this for an overview of arguments for closing Burke and get back to me: https://beltmag.com/clevelandairporttroubles/ From the above: “In 2011, Mayor Jackson laid out a plan for the city to spend $1.6 billion in improvements at Hopkins because of what he termed a “strong local market.” “At the same time, we asked to interview Mayor Jackson or airport systems director Ricky Smith and got no response.” And every article about Burke is like that. Facts and figures on one side. No response from the other.

So what? I hear it only takes a 30-day notice to the FAA to close an airport. 30 days to freedom.

Hi Cincinnatians, can anyone on the ground in Cincy tell me if closing Blue Ash Airport has had any negative repercussions on your economy. Have you heard any regrets expressed by the public or lost any businesses because of it?

Hur dur! Go to Crocker Park. That was developed by Stark after abandoning Cle Pesht. That is what he wanted on the lakefront!

Not my argument at all. We could have had 5,000 jobs that left town plus half of those 271 Progressive Insurance buildings if it wasn’t for Pay to Play stonewalling on (in part) our failing Burke airport. Burke’s demise was predicted by smarter people than me 30 years ago. It is time to close it.

Count up those Eaton jobs. American Greetings jobs that left town. Could have been on that lakefront where your precious limestone piles sit.

They need our money. We have the power.

Nah. I’m against moving it east. Keep it there, develop the land around it. Close the airport and watch value soar. That parcel you describe is a diamond in he rough.

Anecdotal evidence. I’m not debating whether people land planes there. Is it the best use of the space? How little traffic there necessitates it’s existence? Let’s turn Cleveland over to the billionaires? Why not build a city for us? You’ve got this all backwards.

When?

Good, finally.

Then we agree Burke must close or you have a wasteland? The process to close Burke is at zero. It will take lots of time to get rid of this boondoggle so the sooner we can start public discourse the better. Developers have been lined up to put something there since the 80s but get stonewalled and settle for (I think) lesser projects. Stark’s projects take years to get off the ground because he is not favored. His sole investment in Cleveland proper is Beacon. Politics. Look what he did in Westlake. He wanted that same thing downtown with Eaton and American Greetings and housing and upscale retail. Burke was a big issue. Land in a flight path is not attractive to corporate clients or shoppers or condo owners (noise, hazard, toxins). We lost out because things were not in place. City hall was too flat-footed to make any moves in the short timeframe that Stark needed for his tenants. We need to get a least a vision to coalesce around and work toward so that the next opportunity will not be lost. The city just makes he same stupid mistakes over and over. If we keep putting it off we are bound to lose out to some of the predatory cities that gobble up jobs and companies.

Does anyone know if planes can takeoff and land at Burke during Browns games?

I didn’t mention the stadium. But look at what Burke’s flight path has gifted us. A wasteland! Wouldn’t some housing be nice down there? Is that part of the mix or just restaurant and retail space in Browns Stadium?—that won’t work in my opinion.

On second thought, I’m not comfortable with you policing my tone and language, especially since it was you who called me a “know it all,” first and now you scold me for having a focused argument for which I haven’t seen any refutation. You are in this forum voluntarily. You don’t like my tone you can ignore me or this discussion. I am not here to write posts in an echo chamber. I am seeking information about a problem that is not being addressed because maybe [redacted]. That is all. If you don’t have anything to add that’s fine. If you have a counter opinion, that’s fine too. You want to insult me, fire away. You don’t like the way I post. Well, maybe the internet isn’t the place for you. And an online forum talking about closing Burke airport should be avoided if you have thin skin.

No, I am giving back in kind. I am not insulting, I am calling him and others on their logical fallilacies. That is what is unproductive, not talking about reality.

Here is that hustle and bustle of Lower Manhattan you think exists down there. Reality check: our lakefront is pathetic, it is a wasteland. Argue aethetics for for a minute. Name one public space down there where people want to hang out without an attached festival? The whole thing is a forbidding cluster of mistake by the lake.

Tall ships were in town. See what kind of demand there is for lake access? Clevelanders are starved for it. Wouldn’t it be nice to have that kind of activity down there all the time?

Ad hominem. I don’t respond to childish insults after this, I will just ignore you from now on. Get some better arguments or go on to a Suburban Ohio forum echo chamber where you all agree about everything. I get dogpiled by people posting gotcha links that they haven’t even read and prove just the opposite of what they think they prove and I am deranged? Please. Never seen a such a lazy bunch of know it all urban planners so attached to horrible ideas. I expected push back and name calling from the Burke shills but I thought you guys would at least be informed.

No, I saw that. I don’t care about that county airport land for tax purposes. I care about sound development in the city center. Sorry. My rabbit hole of evidence? Go have some fun.

No. I love airplanes. I fly out of Hopkins at least once a year. I don’t live near the runway because I can afford not to. According to you and no one else I’m missing out. A new technology tested at Burke? ? Not saying it won’t happen but it sounds like fantasy. I wouldn’t count on it. If only there was an economic money-saving course of action that is proven to work. ? Like closing Burke! Look, drive around the perimeter of Hopkins. Then go and walk around at Burke. The areas around them are identical: they are WASTELANDS! Don’t you get it. We have a wasteland on the property that could finance all of our infill projects. We are doing things backwards because every developer in town has been told, “Burke will not close and that’s final.” Read page 5 of that study! Read about scary cardiovascular problems and suicide rates and you’ll begin to understand why wastelands exist around Cleveland airports, and every airport around the world.

Nope. Did you know people in a 10-mile radius of airports have huge health risks? These planes at low altitude put out noise and toxins that people breath in. There are reasons why airports are horrible for real estate value. There are reasons why land around airports is not zoned for housing and usually doesn’t feature high-end housing. No one chooses to live under a flight path for convenient air travel. The market proves it. This is not arbitrary opinion, this is proven by real estate transactions around the world. https://nqsc.org/downloads/REALESTATE.pdf tl;dr of above report: look at health risks described stating on page 5!!’ ? It will show you why Burke alone explains Cleveland’s Bizarro World lakefront demand. Again, we have an underused airport that is killing the value and thus the developability of our most valuable real estate (not my opinion, waterfront real estate value is scarce with pent up demand universally). Closing Burke is not a panacea, it is the actual cure to our blight. Amd sorry, I don’t care about redeveloping land on the outskirts of the county for tax dollars. I just don’t care. I am interested in creating a Cleveland with a dense urban center surrounded by as much green as possible sitting right next to the lake. That’s the dream.

Go play volleyball under Hopkins runway and you’ll triple that “hustle and bustle.” It will be like you’re playing volleyball in Times Square I’m sure. Seriously, how is sitting in the desolate Rock Hall Plaza anything like being in say Battery Park in lower Manhattan? BTW: I’m fine with helicopters. It’s AIRPLANES constantly flying over your CBD that is the value killer.

Yes I’ve seen the Geis plan. There have been many and city hall is not interested. Some of those developers settled for doing infill projects (Stark’s Beacon, and Wolstein’s FEB) after years of getting nowhere. We’re lucky these are home town boys who dream of a better Cleveland and stuck around. Others would have given up years ago and moved on. Many have. If there is any good news it is that at least one of the presumptive mayoral candidates is silently but strongly Burke-sceptic.

Is that the best we can do?